Chii bolt

Thanks. A monk was my first 50 and I've had several into the 40's.

As for removing lag on the victim, then let's remove lag from the bolter and remove the lag on chii and store. That way when you FLEE immediately with no lag I can smack you around anyways instead of being penalized to hell and back.
A chii bolt lvl 3 was not originally ever intended to lag the victim. It's even in the damn help file. They are supposed to flee immediately.

Here are your tactics. Either time the bolt so that they are lagging themselves or spamming commands or hope for a lucky chakera. Not too difficult really.

In fact, this is the tactic for every other class. I also firmly believe air thrash should lag the monk more than the victim, 2 rounds vs 1 round seems fair to me. Though I am not 100% on what the current lag setup for that is.

Air thrash already does lag the monk more than the victim, for 2 rounds vs 1 round.

Dey

A chii bolt lvl 3 was not originally ever intended to lag the victim. It's even in the damn help file. They are supposed to flee immediately.

Here are your tactics. Either time the bolt so that they are lagging themselves or spamming commands or hope for a lucky chakera. Not too difficult really.

In fact, this is the tactic for every other class. I also firmly believe air thrash should lag the monk more than the victim, 2 rounds vs 1 round seems fair to me. Though I am not 100% on what the current lag setup for that is.

I have to correct you here. Chii bolt lvl 3 was always intended to lag the victim, and always has lagged the victim, nor does the help file indicate otherwise; there is a reason it did not specifically state the prior effects are not included. If they are able to flee immediately, chii bolt lvl 3 is totally pointless; it takes a minimum of three rounds of time out of combat for a monk to store up a chii bolt lvl 3, and it takes precisely one round to recast protective shield. If there is no lag from chii bolt, there is no point to chii bolting.

Air thrash already lags the monk more than the victim, as Deykari stated. Out of curiosity, have you played a monk?

I do not see any of these proposed nerfs going in at all, at this time, with the possible exception of the proposal in Deykari's original post, but even that I don't see as necessarily needed. There are many classes I would nerf before monks.

Let's re-order chii bolt.

Level 1: Removes ONE random barrier, plus gives a small one round lag.

Level 2: Magic Hands(stored) + Removes TWO random barriers, one round lag.

Level 3: Magic Hands(stored) + Removes THREE random barriers, three rounds lag, AND chance to remove sanctuary.

That would be crazy overpowered...

Let's re-order chii bolt.

Level 1: Removes ONE random barrier, plus gives a small one round lag.

Level 2: Magic Hands(stored) + Removes TWO random barriers, one round lag.

Level 3: Magic Hands(stored) + Removes THREE random barriers, three rounds lag, AND chance to remove sanctuary.

dude. removing any barriers at all is a level 3 ability.. making lesser forms available for 1&2 is just craaaaazy. way OP. remove a barrier? +lag? instant advantage, since to my knowledge, there are no barriers that can be made in battle, and with a chii bolt lag, its possible to laglock. that would be insane.

It really doesn't matter what level they're at - if you're capable of running around, the difference in time it takes to go from 1 to 2 or 1 to 3 is very nearly negligible. That's why my suggestion is -IF- (and only if) it is deemed necessary to do something about chii bolt, I would suggest increasing the "store" lag time.

Let's re-order chii bolt.

Level 1: Removes ONE random barrier, plus gives a small one round lag.

Level 2: Magic Hands(stored) + Removes TWO random barriers, one round lag.

Level 3: Magic Hands(stored) + Removes THREE random barriers, three rounds lag, AND chance to remove sanctuary.

Forget level 1 and 2 being overpowered. Now they can remove sanc too? Instantly monks are THE melee class.

If they are able to flee immediately' date=' chii bolt lvl 3 is totally pointless; it takes a minimum of three rounds of time out of combat for a monk to store up a chii bolt lvl 3, and it takes precisely one round to recast protective shield. If there is no lag from chii bolt, there is no point to chii bolting.[/quote']

Yeah most of these guys probably never played monks or managed to reach the classes full potential but feel the need offer all kinds of radical changes. I haven't played a monk either so I won't comment there but I would like to comment on Zhokril's point in that I still see a point to the lvl 3 chii bolt if it allowed the opponent to flee after it. It can work toward extending a lag lock by starting off with it and hoping the opponent entered in a command hoping for a first attack thus allowing you to proceed with the air thrashes and trips. If the opponent does not enter a command to initiate battle he allows the monk to get the first command in. Yes the opponent can flee to put up protective shield but should still be able to chase and continue lagging while the victim is putting up protective shield equating to further lag and additionally a bit dmg'd from taking that 2-3 round chii bolt lag.

I played a monk for a long time. I didn't like that when I won it was becaus eof my luck and not my skill. Granted current examples of monks win because of skill. My only concern, which I think the point is straying from is COMPLETE laglocks. The ones where you enter no commands. So maybe if the monk gets super lucky on a phantom strike or something, have it lag heavy-even heavy enough to kill the person, but not let chakeras stack. I'm fine with the whole chii bolt situation really. It's just chii bolt-(crap >flee)dragon strike-trip-dragon claw-trip-phantom dragon-trip dead. It's rare but happens. I liken it to why dks cleaving in half got removed. So far in all my fights with like... Scholin, none have been this kind of 100% laglock. Which is ironic to me because I still lost, could be skill.

However with my monk I've opened chiibolt on a invoker, battlemage, and landed a phantom in the next round.... with that kind of lag it's very difficult not to land a few more chakeras whilst you're thrashing and tripping to hell.

Air thrash already lags the monk more than the victim' date=' as Deykari stated. Out of curiosity, have you played a monk?

I also firmly believe air thrash should lag the monk more than the victim' date=' 2 rounds vs 1 round seems fair to me. Though I am not 100% on what the current lag setup for that is.
I'm pretty sure I stated that I wasn't certain what it was, but what it should be. Looks like I have no problems with it then. Yes, I have played 3 monks in my time here. One of them was around the time of Iraekiira, whever that was. I didn't enjoy him much. I never comment on something I have 0 experience with or if I do, I make it known.

Also, I have not fought a monk recently. My comments are coming from issues I saw while playing a monk. Not fighting against one.

If they are able to flee immediately' date=' chii bolt lvl 3 is totally pointless; it takes a minimum of three rounds of time out of combat for a monk to store up a chii bolt lvl 3, and it takes precisely one round to recast protective shield. If there is no lag from chii bolt, there is no point to chii bolting.[/color']
I could not disagree with you more. Here is what I already said.

Here are your tactics. Either time the bolt so that they are lagging themselves or spamming commands or hope for a lucky chakera. Not too difficult really. In fact' date=' this is the tactic for every other class.[/quote']Should a monk have a reliable way to completely lag lock an enemy? Hell no. No other class gets that, why should monks? They especially do not need it.

I haven't played a monk either so I won't comment there but I would like to comment on Zhokril's point in that I still see a point to the lvl 3 chii bolt if it allowed the opponent to flee after it. It can work toward extending a lag lock by starting off with it and hoping the opponent entered in a command hoping for a first attack thus allowing you to proceed with the air thrashes and trips. If the opponent does not enter a command to initiate battle he allows the monk to get the first command in. Yes the opponent can flee to put up protective shield but should still be able to chase and continue lagging while the victim is putting up protective shield equating to further lag and additionally a bit dmg'd from taking that 2-3 round chii bolt lag.
I'm pretty sure Zhokril has not commented on this and it was my post you were referring to.

Thank you for reinforcing my point about how unnecessary lag is for a lvl 3 chii bolt.

I do not see any of these proposed nerfs going in at all' date=' at this time, with the possible exception of the proposal in Deykari's original post, but even that I don't see as necessarily needed. There are many classes I would nerf before monks.[/quote']I agree, I would rather other classes get nerfed, however I do not think these are nerfs. Merely a correction to the way the class should be played. They aren't really losing power out of the deal, just forced to change tactics.

They aren't really losing power out of the deal' date=' just forced to change tactics.[/quote']

Regardless of my opinion on whether or not this change should go through... you have got to be joking with this statement. Changing a skill from "drops prot shield and lags" to "drops prot shield" is CERTAINLY a power loss. I would feel incredibly more confident going up against monks as a c/c if this change went through... avoid using 2-round lag spells and the only way he's got to lag me is if he gets very lucky and hits a chakera the very next round after the chii bolt. Else, I've fled and prot shield's back up with a single cast.

EDIT: Even in the ideal scenario where he can follow and air thrash me before I put up prot shield, again, he's got one round to get lucky with a chakera in else I'm guaranteed to be able to flee and put back up prot shield before he can chase again. Two rounds to be lucky, else the skill was pretty useless - and that's the ideal scenario. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like how the class is already so dependent on luck as it is, and I certainly don't want to make it any more so.

It's not a question of being able to 'reliably' lag lock an opponent. It's the question of being able to lag lock at all. If it takes three rounds to prepare a one-shot chii bolt that knocks out a spell without lagging, the target can immediately flee and recast in one round. Functionally speaking, chii bolt three will never do anything at all except force a brief flee. And hoping for a lucky hit (which is what a chakera by definition is) is not, by any definition of the word, a 'reliable' way to do anything, which is how things stand even now.

Monks primarily rely on random bursts of lag and chakeras to win; this makes up for their crap in hitroll, damroll, and overall damage compared to every single other melee class in the game. That's the entire basis of the class, to be frank, and the reason why monks are anti-c/c, but weak against most meleers. No chii bolt 3 + lag = no chakeras, period, ever, against a competent caster. See Pali's post.

I don't want to sound dismissive, but I do not see this change being implemented. Monks really do not need nerfing, and this proposed change to their single most important skill against casters (whom monks are supposed to be the bane of) is undoubtedly a significant nerf. In addition, I honestly think all the hullabaloo about monks is just the flavor of the month. In a few weeks, it'll be something else.

I never claimed monks were OP though as their current skill set is I think it needs tweaking.

There are other ways for monks to lag a caster other than chakera strikes. I am not talking about air thrash or trip either.

Imagine if a warrior had the ability to remove protective shield from a caster - that lagged them. Then they could just follow through with a few bashes. (I admit there is a slight difference, but the concept is the same)

I do not think Monks need this.

We recently had a discussion about necros. Some people will claim this recent change was a nerf, however they never needed it in the first place. This is how I see monks. This unneeded bonus does not grant them the power it did a necro, but it is still not needed.

No class bane should ever be 100% shut down, just uphill. At the moment there are a few banes that can so utterly dominate a class that no skill is involved and quite frankly I think it needs to be changed.

I think it has to do with the equipment alterations throughout the years and player skill rising. Though I agree we should wait for the eq changes to go through before making many tweaks.

I would like to point out my idea was a joke, hence the "princes of the universe" link at the bottom.

And how the heck can you compare monks to warriors/necro charmies?!?!

Please don't tell me that "other" method is the phantom dragon strike? Christ, I rarely ever saw that back in my monk days. Invokers and giant melees ate me alive.

You had a monk that was eaten alive by invokers? Wtf.

You have to press buttons, Valek. Then you won't die to invokers, heh.

I never claimed monks were OP though as their current skill set is I think it needs tweaking.

There are other ways for monks to lag a caster other than chakera strikes. I am not talking about air thrash or trip either.

Imagine if a warrior had the ability to remove protective shield from a caster - that lagged them. Then they could just follow through with a few bashes. (I admit there is a slight difference, but the concept is the same)

I do not think Monks need this.

We recently had a discussion about necros. Some people will claim this recent change was a nerf, however they never needed it in the first place. This is how I see monks. This unneeded bonus does not grant them the power it did a necro, but it is still not needed.

No class bane should ever be 100% shut down, just uphill. At the moment there are a few banes that can so utterly dominate a class that no skill is involved and quite frankly I think it needs to be changed.

I think it has to do with the equipment alterations throughout the years and player skill rising. Though I agree we should wait for the eq changes to go through before making many tweaks.

if you take out the lag, then the only effective lag against a caster would be trip. and random chakeras. trash lags you longer, giving them time to flee. so unless you get a lucky chakera, and can trip after the thrash, the caster will get away every single time.

monks are intended to be lag machines. completely different than the necro nerf. monks are acting as they were intended. as zokhrill said, necros were not, and that was the reason for their nerf.

monks are not a 100% lock down. chakera strikes are random. without them, you cant lag lock. they hit softer than other melees. they get the lag potential to compensate. its not 100% because you cannot predict/force a chakera strike. as such, they are an uphill fight, not a lock-down.

Blah blah blah

In overall balancing you take the playerbase as a whole and carve out the top two or three played classes/races. Taking those classes/races you determine why they are being played.

Chii Bolt might not need a change. Monks may not be the most successful class on FL. Since I am not in an IMP role, I am not qualified to answer that.

If you lose a fight by barely scratching an opponent and ultimately determine you made no mistake, there is either a potential imbalance or an extremely lucky opponent. If someone different, but that same class, steamrolls you in a similar way; there is an actual imbalance. If this happens often, people typically either shelve their character or quit playing completely. Add the inability to flee and you multiply the frustration of these encounters.

I personally took the former approach. I shelved my character to play a class/race that is immune to lag lock. I will also admit that I rolled a character on a different MUD after taking my second character (berserker) to 50 and getting steamrolled yet again. With perfected hand to hand, perfected haymaker, the anger path AND good dex I had a 15 - 20% success ratio on haymaker. I also found that raged my hit/dam was less than most of the elite players I was fighting. hah!

There are some imbalances in the game, that is simply a fact. What it will take is someone impartial to review the mechanics and actually test the combat of that class versus others. Talking about perceptions is only looking at one side of the story.

Personally I have destroyed monks for years in this game. During those times they had the same skills that they do now. We just have players who have learned when and what to use. I was lag locked by a monk (Kalith? or somethign like that) in 1.0 in no less than 3 encounters with Meleki. The game evolves to something better or it loses players. That is just the reality of the slowly desintegrating MUD playerbase.

You make some very solid points.

My only qualm is with your statement that is actually about monks - that being that monks did in fact receive a fair-sized overhaul since the time period you're talking about.

[10/29/06]: Monk's stances have new affects and abilities.

[10/29/06]: Monk's air thrash has been improved.

[01/18/08]: Monks are now able to second parry outside of defensive empowerment - at a lesser rate.