Class has nothing to do with punishing the character. If they don't need eq to be viable, you're trying to punish the player. In the game if someone murders you, and miraculously you've been brought from the dead to do the will of your God, you will be or should be feeling very much punished. Someone has taken your life. That alone is really the ultimate punishment/coup/gesture. We forget this with our numerous 60 life characters.
A looting proposal
Class has nothing to do with punishing the character. If they don't need eq to be viable' date=' you're trying to punish the player. [i']In the game if someone murders you, and miraculously you've been brought from the dead to do the will of your God, you will be or should be feeling very much punished. Someone has taken your life. That alone is really the ultimate punishment/coup/gesture. We forget this with our numerous 60 life characters.
Look Twin, when someone is a jerk to me on a player basis, I will seek ways to punish him on a player basis.
It's one thing to be jerk in character and it is completely another to be jerk as a player.
And yes, class has A LOT to do when punishing a character especially when your advice is "murder him".
Great, what's next? A discussion on physics/buoyancy vs. the Freedom of Movement spell? 
Great' date=' what's next? A discussion on physics/buoyancy vs. the Freedom of Movement spell?
someones been reading dnd insider!
I disagree. Even in real life it's considered punishing someone to take their stuff away. Things are valued by people in real life' date=' why wouldn't they be in-game? Don't we have an entire religion based around valuing stuff and wanting more stuff? Wouldn't it be punishment to take that stuff away?[/quote']
No, because they are already DEAD. As I believe one of your recent posts referenced this, I'll reiterate something I posted in another thread.
I've read a number of posts lately' date=' from vets included, talking about how a character could reasonably predict that they would be brought back to life (or their enemies) after seeing it happen to those around them. [b']This is not legitimate roleplay. It is a consequence of an unavoidable OOC mechanic. It is one of those situations where we simply suspend disbelief on RP a bit in order not to ruin everyone's fun (by perm-killing their char). It is the same situation as how regular mobs, or Travens, or Kings return to no end even though we murder the hell out of them over and over. Nobody explains it as them coming back to life over and over, we just suspend our disbelief. To clarify: each and every time you come back to life should be just as amazing, jaw-dropping, and glorious as the first, nor do you think this is a "regular occurence" around you.
Honestly man, I never got that either. A full loot of a hated enemy who was armed to the teeth and crushing people inw aves is one thing, but to full loot everyone, everytime for no other reason than that is how I get down. That is what i view as less than classy.
I will tell you straight up I WILL loot alot of stuff from people who give me a hard fight. I will leave armor so they can get a decent re equip suit, but kiss some of those key items goodbye.
Warriors- bye rings of accuracy, bye lights, bye backpacks.
Vokers-Bye +mana gear, Bye mal saves.
Bmgs- Bye dancer
rogues who try to silent me-bye everything.
rogues who are legit- By daggers, and backpacks (you guys get a shart ton of consumables)
so on and so fourth. But honestly people. If you beat them easily, was there even a point in the looting? I remember killing Hainasf as Maerothir the first time, I think I literally took 4 pieces all together.
My question to you, Zhokril, is simple: why?
Why is it a bad thing to try to incorporate these OOC mechanics into the game world? Why just shove them aside, when they are a huge part of the game? Maybe I'm the only one, but I've never had my characters just ignore that mobs and players keep coming back to life - instead, I've always come up with RP explanations for it ("Damned vampires turning people so quickly!", "stupid nymphs, there's always another hiding behind the trees!", etc.), and I've had many great conversations in game about why the prolific nature of these creatures makes it so important to kill them even more (literally the only hunting area I haven't yet figured out something like this yet for is the Caverns). Deaths of more important figures (named mobs and players) I usually call gods choosing to bring back their favored pets, though there are exceptions (i.e. there's an RP log where a paladin of mine and a dwarf friend of his killed Mahn-Tor, and some IMM watching decided to control some mobs and have us pick the new Mahn-Tor).
I've always viewed these as in-game events that require some level of in-game justification, not just OOC mechanics intruding into the FL world. I feel it breaks immersion to try to ignore them just as mechanics that the game needs, that we shouldn't be acting like it actually happens in game even though our characters see it happening all the time. What is wrong with including them in the game world?
Are conquests not considered RPed events, even though characters, by your way of thinking, should consider the whole idea of asking for more lives ridiculous?
Why? Because it really doesn't make much sense at all. The gods as they are defined in FL are fickle beings that generally serve their own interest, not traditional "God" figures. Think more like mythical Roman or Greek gods.
In short, the idea of bringing someone back to life is a very extreme act that would only be reserved for rare circumstances. The idea that anyone would be worrying about their equipment after dying and being brought back to life, is quite simply absurd. The idea that a god would bring back a huge number of people 60 times each is absurd. As I said, the gods each basically serve their own purposes. There is no way that the gods, especially some evil ones, would care that much about so many different people. This is not a new standpoint - this has always been the standpoint in the game.
As for explaining away nymphs being gone by "another one hiding behind the tree", I don't see how that maintains any more immersion. Every time you leave the forest, right on schedule 3 hours later the nymphs are every bit as plentiful (not one or two that have come out from hiding), and in exact same location as you found them before? That is every bit if not more of a "selective immersion" - you are still ignoring details that are OOC.
What if the IMMS dropped the number of lives, in general? I'm not entirely sure it's been discussed, though I'm sure it's been brought up from time to time. Maybe something like 40? I really don't have any strong suggestions. I just figure if there are less lives to be spent, maybe it would take some of the focus of dying from merely losing eq, and put more emphasis on the actual 'death' part. It's been said over and over again that death IS the ultimate punishment, RP wise. However, when death actually happens, and you find yourself standing at your pit, the first thing that's on your mind is spamming out the directions to your corpse. Or sending a tell to your assailant. I don't think too many people think to them selves, "Crap! Only 50 more lives to go." I understand that people DO invest alot of their personal time, and spend alot of their life, investing into the characters they have here.
It's been stated before, and I fully agree-this is a community. 
It's more than just a bunch of players here. Friendships have been made, people have been married, people share with the community what's going on in their lives. IG and OOC, the relationships formed here are, IMO, what keeps people coming back. IG, it sort of takes out the computer element of the game, replacing it with person vs person. Everyone gets bored of playing Mortal Kombat single player, b/c you can learn the computer's moves. Bring a friend over and play 2 player, though, and it's much more fun.
I don't know too many people here enough to be considered the "In crowd" so to speak, like Dey, Mudder, Grim, etc... But, when I DO come back after a leave, I look forward to seeing the same people, reading Dey's drunk posts, watching Mudder and emp-newb go back and forth, and so on.
Not really sure why I posted all that. Back on track, though: For those who invest aLOT of time into their characters, (Aulian, Solec, Mephisoleer, Daviaus, etc...) 50 deaths may be too little for them, and may cut their legacy short of what it could truly be.
Again, I'm not suggesting that this is a good cure for alot of the posts recently regarding eq losses, RP'ing of death, etc... I just think that if you're given less of something, you tend to charish it more. Some characters may burn through 40 deaths in no time flat, and some characters (like the late Martenieus, Triathix, Iraekiira, Patreus) may never hit the 30 death mark for years.
I hardly ever post my thoughts about the game in the forums. I try my best to kinda roll with the changes and adapt. I think this may the first time I've ever posted my opinion on a current event. So.....try no to rip it up to bad. (Glances over at Grim)
You're right. The level of immersion is only enhanced one step (though frankly, it's one step more than you're advocating). The specific gods probably wouldn't care. I agree on that.
My basic question remains, however: why? Why don't we find a way to integrate these things into the RP world? Sure, my specific ideas have holes in them, but I'd bet that the playerbase could bounce ideas around here long enough that we'd figure out something good. Why do we just shuffle them off into the "pretend it doesn't happen" pile when we could get more depth from them by entwining them into roleplay?
EDIT: If this is just a staff position that is almost certain to never change, please notify me via PM and I'll just shut up about it. But I personally find the game more enticing to view things the way I do, even if it's just a BS idea that falls apart after any real critical examination - because in the context of the game it doesn't need that critical examination. It's a minor thing under the vast majority of circumstances, but when the situations comes up I prefer to view it this way because it feels more like my character is actually a thinking being capable of recognizing and reacting to the world around him.
The problem comes along when I see people running back to their altars when they are about to die so that they can keep their equipment. I have no desire to stifle anyone's personal RP, but as far as situations relating to the above go, it shouldn't happen.
I think regardless of how much we try to integrate any given item into the world, there are always implicit suspensions of disbelief that are intrinsic. If not, healers would spend all their "tea time" killing the undeads in the tomb and everywhere else in the land. I am sure you see my point along that vein.
As long as people realize the clear cut distinction between where "abuse" and roleplay intersect, there isn't really an issue.
The problem comes along when I see people running back to their altars when they are about to die so that they can keep their equipment. I have no desire to stifle anyone's personal RP' date=' but as far as situations relating to the above go, it shouldn't happen.[/quote']
Fully agreed. As I've said, people should not expect to be brought back after a death. My only argument is that characters see it happen enough that I wouldn't consider it a break of RP to consider that a potential outcome and prepare for it (which ties into the original discussion, looting and reasons for it - all I've been arguing is that yes, there can be valid RP reasons to loot someone that are fully IC).
I think regardless of how much we try to integrate any given item into the world, there are always implicit suspensions of disbelief that are intrinsic. If not, healers would spend all their "tea time" killing the undeads in the tomb and everywhere else in the land. I am sure you see my point along that vein.
I do indeed see your point, and I do agree that at some point there just has to be a suspension of disbelief. I'm just saying that it's possible to move it back a couple levels from the general norm, by trying to include more aspects of the game into someone's RP, and that doing so shouldn't be discouraged because I think it makes the game a richer experience.
As long as people realize the clear cut distinction between where "abuse" and roleplay intersect, there isn't really an issue.
My response:
If we could only make this game douchebag-proof' date=' we could get rid of half our rules.[/quote']
If they aren't meant to be coming back, why the hell not take everything then? They won't be making use of it anymore. You may as well sell it or do something with it for your own gain (hell, give it away to others if your a goodie).
Either way, whether your character thinks they will be revived or not, its perfectly acceptable to take ALL of their things. For the sake of enjoyment, I don't OFTEN do it.
I think its getting rather stupid to argue about the fact you don't know if they will even be coming back etc. Hell, if we completely disregarded simple things like repops, the layout of the lands (how does one know exactly where to go and find all these awesome things, when it is the first time they have ever adventured here) then we start to loose sight of what a game is all about, and thats enjoying ones self. I think your completely over complicating things to support your opinion (which it doesn't really anyway as outlined above). When I've died I've taken pretty much a full loot (as much as they could humanly gather) and it really doesn't bother me. I don't usually find it is the newbs that tend to care about getting a full loot either. Its the VETS in their full suit of adeptus that crack the ****s and have a cry. I have a least two or three instances of them pretty much going OOC due to this. I find newbs are happy wearing their sub par armor. Its those who seek to get the most from their characters that do. As such, I don't know how much the dual system is going to help with player retention. As I've mentioned before, newbs will generally find everything (minus if I need something they have) left in their corpse by me at least, and I consider myself a bit of an arsehole player (although I have significantly improved since my old old days). As I see it, it'll make little difference to my play style, unless vets abuse the bonuses, which as I've mentioned, is my sole POSSIBLE issue with the new system.