Rangers

So, I'd like to have a small discussion about ranger paths. As many of you know, most rangers like to pick tracker as their path, because it's currently the most useful of the ranger paths. I'd like to break down ranger paths the way I see it, and then give a few suggestions (which may actually help with rangers themselves):

Now the biggest problem that I see is actually with archery - this path is the most counterable of all the ranger paths. It doesn't take much to deal with an archer.

Archery

** Number of Skills Counterable: 5 (all)**

** Now, some of you may be wondering, "What the hell's he talking about?" Well, I'm talking about scrolls of missile immunity. Though expensive, these are very readily available, and they render an archer completely useless. There are 17 base classes in this game, and 12 of them get the scrolls skill. In addition, there are certain items that also grant this ability. Also, the archer's long range is nullified by the fact that anyone with fired weapons who is not an archer (IE - a tracker ranger, a warrior, a ninja, etc.) is able to shoot back, regardless of distance.**

** Suggestions: First and foremost, shorten the duration on the most readily available sources of this skill - lower the level of the scrolls. Change it so that a class with fired weapons may only return fire upon being shot if they are within range (1 room, in most cases). If this is too overpowering, perhaps cut the range in half. Final suggestion (and perhaps the one I like the best) - attach a skill called volley to the Marksman ability (archery ranger lore). This skill, similar to chain lightning, would allow the ranger to shoot a volley of arrows that would short circuit their opponents missile shield.**

Beastmaster

Number of Skills Counterable: 0

** Now, while this may seem to be the best of all worlds, as there are no counterable skills in this set, that benefit is somewhat nullified by the fact that there are no real advantages to choosing this path. Group herb is really only useful in a party of humans - as if your pets and you are receiving enough damage simultaneously that you're going to die, then +200hp isn't going to save them. Pack call, while nice, is also not that spectacular. And finally, an extra pet and pets that are a level higher is not truly worth giving up the abilities of the other two paths. There has yet to be a single truly successful beastmaster ranger. Senrail came the closest, and I would like to point out that if he had chosen EITHER of the other paths, he would have been significantly more effective.**

** Suggestions: Raise the level of the pets to two levels higher than their owner. This isn't going to be some godsend, it's merely going to A) give the pets a tiny bit more health, and make them a tiny bit stronger. Allow the third pet to be either a raven OR a displacer beast. We all know that ravens are useless. Let's be realistic here. Increase the hp healed by group herb.**

Tracker

Number of Skills Counterable: 1

** Now, this is possibly the most effective choice for any ranger. You get five different abilities, all of which are uniquely and incredibly useful. My suggestions for this path are thus going to be for it to be toned down.**

** Suggestions: Give doublesheath to all rangers, not just trackers. Replace doublesheath with powergrip for the tracker path. Make it so creatures that are flying do not leave tracks.**

So this is my take on rangers. They're a good class that is a little unbalanced, either in that one way it's underpowered or another way it's overpowered. Ranger paths were not added to change the power level of the class, but rather to give it flavor. Let's not lose sight of that by keeping one path more powerful than all the others, and thus preventing the other two from being selected nearly as often.

As a whole, rangers are an awesomely fun class to play and fight - I've done my fair share of both. So this suggestions part will also include some overall balance suggestions.

1. Change hitroll and damroll from stat bonuses, so that dexterity affects hitroll and strength affects damroll. Why would a muscle-bound ogre be more accurate than a dextrous halfling, just because he's got bigger biceps? It doesn't make sense, really. So I propose a simple (not sure how logistically simple it would be, but logically simple) change where dexterity plays more of a key factor in hitroll than strength.

2. Coupled with the above change, lower ogre dexterity by one point. This would make ogres less superior as melees, but still very very viable. With the above change, this would also improve the desire to play high-dexterity melees as a whole.

3. Remove quiet movement from the ranger skillset. For a class that plays like a warrior, acts like a warrior, and essentially fights like a warrior, this class just feels a little to roguish to me. Making it so that rangers cannot move while camouflaged would fix this a little.

I'm sure there's more, but it's 4:30AM, and this is all I could think of at the moment. Let me know what you all think

I very much like the idea of taking away quiet movement. Make it like a slith's chameleon, only useful when you've actually slipped your opponent's line of sight for a moment.

Volley sounds interesting but there would have to be a cool down, or just make it rather hard to break the scroll in the first place.

Maybe archery is a path that was meant for those classes that can't use that scroll you're referring to? Even if classes can counter it most of the time if you're playing correctly they'll be caught by surprise and you'll be doing more damage than them and even get lucky with its effects before they know what's going on. Same for classes that can use that scroll. Hey why not take away allowing you to camo your pets and give it to this path of ranger? And to make this more of a well rounded path, maybe make it so that if you're shooting someone with that certain scroll, make it so that it drains mana to keep it up.

Here's another idea. Give Ogres back their usual regen, but take away there massive hp/con and give it to one of the lesser picked giants. How's that for balance?

Another idea lower how long the tracking rangers can track. Track right now nearly completely negates the need to use cabal skills to find out where someone else. Something that has the same effectiveness as a cabal skill definitely calls for a bit of toning if you ask me. Make it so you must be right behind your opponent before they disappear. If you get behind your opponent by a whole area they should disappear. This is where the players skills, cabal skills, and common sense should come into play. This is how I view how a true tracker should track there prey.

Also take away double sheath from tracker rangers. I never understood why they should they get it as well as two other crazy abilities while Warriors have to pick it without getting anything else that comes with it and from an rp and combat prospective they should very well have it, same for ninjas.

I would make the scroll maybe 50% effective. For trackers I would have tracks from everyone show with the race indicated, so that it's up to the tracker to sort out whose is whose. I.e.:

There is some fresh giant spur here.

There is some new demihuman spur here.

There is some old beast spur here.

So instead of track , you just track or don't track.

You forgot about the ability to flee with your pets as a Beastmaster.

And the fact you cannot isolate them.

And Group herb is a Plague cure, so that someone does not plagues one pet, and sudently you have to release all.

I dont see why all rangers should lose Quiet movement.

Giant rangers, i could agree. But elves and Halflings ???

And nerfing missile scroll ? Have you seen the nasty effects arrows can create ? Or the damage output ?

"Make it so creatures that are flying do not leave tracks." This is a very good idea.

I proposed this elsewhere but I'll repeat it here--make quiet movement's success dependent on dexterity, so for giant races (any race with a dex below 20) there's a chance of it failing for each step.

I also think beastmasters are fine. Maybe give archers doublesheath instead of trackers.

Create a level 30 rare pair of boots that don't leave tracks.

There's a reason why everybody uses those scrolls, it's because fired weapons are completely overpowered. Huge damage + can fire from afar + can blind/sleep/etc., I think it's a little bit ridiculous, and the only argument against fired weapons is that they're countered by a 12,000gp scroll. Get rid of the scroll, cut fired weapon damage by a lot, and lower the chances of a player getting hit by one of the affects. Then an archer will be more viable as his fired weapons will be "enhanced" up to the quality we are familiar with today.

The best way to prove that something is overpowered is to prove it's overpowered. Roll one. Spank everyone. There will be crying and gnashing of teeth. The IMMs will see it.

Saying that something is overpowered is really just words. Unfortunately it is really hard to prove that something is underpowered.

Get rid of the scroll' date=' cut fired weapon damage by a lot, and lower the chances of a player getting hit by one of the affects.[/quote']

Or you could just make the scroll do this and make it much cheaper. Or make it a potion that could be used by everyone.

The best way to prove that something is overpowered is to prove it's overpowered. Roll one. Spank everyone. There will be crying and gnashing of teeth. The IMMs will see it.

Saying that something is overpowered is really just words. Unfortunately it is really hard to prove that something is underpowered.

I think there have been enough amazing tracker rangers to show that this has already been done.

There's a reason why everybody uses those scrolls' date=' it's because fired weapons are completely overpowered. Huge damage + can fire from afar + can blind/sleep/etc., I think it's a little bit ridiculous, and the only argument against fired weapons is that they're countered by a 12,000gp scroll. Get rid of the scroll, cut fired weapon damage by a lot, and lower the chances of a player getting hit by one of the affects. Then an archer will be more viable as his fired weapons will be "enhanced" up to the quality we are familiar with today.[/quote']

Absolutely agree. Back in the day when fired weapons were introduced, landing an arrow hit use to be hard for everybody except a archer with the marksmenship skill. Now it seems every class can shoot just as accurate as an archer.

1. Change hitroll and damroll from stat bonuses, so that dexterity affects hitroll and strength affects damroll. Why would a muscle-bound ogre be more accurate than a dextrous halfling, just because he's got bigger biceps? It doesn't make sense, really. So I propose a simple (not sure how logistically simple it would be, but logically simple) change where dexterity plays more of a key factor in hitroll than strength.

Someone with high strength can drive a weapon through his opponent's armor and score a hit, whereas someone with low strength might hit their foe but not be able to penetrate his armor.

I think there have been enough amazing tracker rangers to show that this has already been done.

So, you're saying that the staff is blind? The staff can't see the obvious?

I'm guessing that either they are working on it or the player base didn't prove that they're overpowered.

They nerfed the amazing tracker rangers because they were Ogres. They reamed their healing rate to the point that they healed a LOT slower than they did and then apparently decided that it was a bit too nerfed so they upped the healing rate a little again. So the staff sees it they just have to test out the changes and that takes time to see if it works or not. Now I didn't read the original post, but kind of liked the idea of having the scroll only working like 50% of the time, possibly even just lessening the damage and/or the affects from the arrows rather than nerfing it completely. It wouldn't help just Rangers either, just anyone who has fired weapons.

That scroll is already ridiculously expensive for what it does, and it's impossible to fight any of the good rangers without it as a mage/communer. I just wish there wasn't an ability so good that it needs to be countered by an expensive item.

Edit: I should say, it's ridiculously expensive for how long it lasts.

Well considering more than half the classes in game can use the scrolls, two classes that can't use scrolls have options (1 being a defining lore which most would feel is a waste, but it still exists) to completely nullify the arrows or send them right back at the archer. Lets not forget the counterfire which always struck me as weird considering people don't kick dirt back at their attack or trip them while they are lying on the ground. Using my FPS experience, if I get the drop on you, you won't be shooting back as I'll be on your flank or back laying into you with all 7.62 fury god saw fit to put in my AK. The only class I could possibly see that should be counterfiring is a Ranger with Marksmanship, considering it does specifically say they have intuitive knowledge of ballistics. Rangers as a whole aren't overpowered...specific builds are just incredibly, borderline godlike powerful. Throw in cabal skills and well...

That scroll is already ridiculously expensive for what it does, and it's impossible to fight any of the good rangers without it as a mage/communer. I just wish there wasn't an ability so good that it needs to be countered by an expensive item.

Edit: I should say, it's ridiculously expensive for how long it lasts.

Yeah, but you have people like Aulian who know how to horde gold and get a ton of it in a quick time period. I can gather the amount to buy it in under 20 seconds, and as long as a minute and still have enough to buy 8 or so. Just depends on where you go and how you go about gathering the gold.

Yeah' date=' but you have [b']people like Aulian who know how to horde gold and get a ton of it in a quick time period. I can gather the amount to buy it in under 20 seconds, and as long as a minute and still have enough to buy 8 or so. Just depends on where you go and how you go about gathering the gold.

Dont drag me into this. Im not flogging this dead horse.

I've already made a few suggestions to rangers directly to the immortals a wee time ago about those scrolls and other things.

They'll deal with it when they have the time.

EDIT: One thing that does get me is that people can return fire over huge distances. Like fighting an ogre warrior a while ago he was shooting me back at over 4+ rooms. Whats the point in marksman + ranger path if he can do that? The worse part is he had better arrows then me... (frozen from winter) so he was doing more damage then I was!