Thieves and Pry/Plant/Steal

I've been mulling this over for a few months now, especially after I saw a particularly nasty helm laying on the ground after someone died to a thief.  Based on the MASSIVE negative stats it gave, it was easy to figure out what had happened and I'm fairly positive that character was deleted by the player.  I'd much rather log off and drop a few lobsters down my pants than stick around in game with a thief any day.  

This isn't so much a suggestion as a question that's on the way.

We've toned down or basically done away with all one hit kills because there's no "strategy" behind them.  We've done our best to make this game newbie friendly and removing or toning those one hit kills was a part of that system.  For me, the jury is out on whether or not it had any effect on player retention, but I'm guessing it did for some and not for others.

Why, then, do we keep the thief class as it is?  A well played thief can just strip and debuff a player right up until the point of an easy to cause death and no other class has it as easy if the opposing player hasn't bound their backpacks and gear.  Which, you won't be binding jack pre-cabal, but that's something else entirely we don't need to get into.  The class is practically a hold over from the 1.0 days of full looting except you don't have to actually kill someone to have their belongings.

We've already had some decent suggestions for revamping the thief class.  I say we keep this going and this is something that needs to happen.  There's no reason to keep around a class that is as demoralizing as a thief can be.

We could pull a dnd on this and rename them to rogue. Ideally with the removal or ideally a more re-branding to the steal and ply/plant skill set that they have. Thieves have a lot going for them but in a world where everyone walks around with a way to poison themselves because thieves can make anyone's day worse maybe it is time to give them a new name and turn them into something else.

I know the playerbase likes rares and uniques, but in truth, it is part of the reason why people hate fighting thieves.  Something is unique so if you lose it, there is no going back to the mob and getting it back.  There also is no going and killing the thief and getting it back if the thief chooses not to fight and stays hidden.  In other words, unless you can detect hidden, that piece of armor is gone unless they want more of your armor.

This is why no one wants thieves buffed without taking something away.  We play in a game where armor determines who you can fight and how you will fight them.  Thieves can not only take your ability to fight them away from you, they can also take your ability to fight others without having to 'finish' the job.  No other class has that ability.  Curse wears off.  Minister wears off.  Hurricane and air thrash wear off.  Caltrops, soul tear, age, maze, planar seal and even asphyxiation all wear off over time.  A thief debuffing you is permanent until you do something about it and only if you can actually do something about it.  Lose those acid-etched armplates?  Find something else to fill that hole and hope it is somewhat equivalent.

Two suggestions, the first one is already being done:

1. Making armor more balanced along with rare, uniques and common.  If someone can get -30 saves across the board and 50/50 hit/dam in rares and uniques, they should be able to get -25 across the board and 40/40 in common and more availble rares.  This way, losing one piece doesn't mean the end of your world.  It means you've now got to depend on the lesser gear but you did not lose everything.

2. Balance thieves by removing their ability to pry/plant and giving them more defensive battle skills and/or offense.  Or, you can simply make pry/plant and steal dependent on the rarity of the items.  Take pry and place a value on it.  Let's say the maximum value for pry is 10.  Each unique counts for 6.  Higher quality rares like the War banner count for 3 and basic rares like the planar blade count for 2.  Make all commons 1, with containers being 2.  Make each plant cost 2 or 3 depending. on the slot.  This means if a thief wants your helm of spell turning and War banner, he can only then steal a sharp glaive and not plant anything.  If he wants both your broken terminators, that is all he gets as attempting anything else wakes you up.

Thieves are in a horrible spot pvp wise, and have been for a long time. As far as "it makes people log off" Half the pbase logs off versus anything challenging anyway, them logging off versus a thief, cleric, ninja,  invoker, druid etc doesn't matter. The general outlook is now well that's an annoying fight, log off. 

Thief skills are also incredibly unreliable with the ac numbers people are hitting, and the fact you can see and defuse traps pretty easily. Thieves need a rework, not a further reduction in their core skills.

Seriously. When was the last time any thief used plant pry steal to terrorize the pbase

Beying pryed sucks. But if we remove this danger the game becomes boring.

A unique/rare everyone has is not unique. You keep what you can keep. If you are hilding the best in slot item, you should expect for people to come for it.

That's how i get mine, from donations from the previous owner as they decide to visit their temple.

The only kind of thief's that suck in my opinion are neutral thieves.

Evils you know that you can attack them and can use protection, which they can dispel. And antievil protects you from pry. Also Sigils can keep them pretty occupied.

Good thieves only target evils and they get countered by vamps and lichs.

That said, i wouldn't mind to see some further paths for thieves that take them away into more roughish stuff.

Like a melee path with dual parry, more weapons and no blackjack pry. Perhaps even fired weapons.

Neutral thieves need a reason to do any if their stuff against you though. So it's pretty easy to avoid them unless you are in a vendetta

You would think that being a THIEF is reason enough to blackjack/pry/steal from anyone, reason or not. Sadly this is not the case.

I think it goes both ways, like if being a thief is enough of a reason to use steal on someone even though they did nothing to you. Then being a thief is enough of a reason for anyone to full on murder you. 

The staff took the 1st approach with neutral thieves. In large part because the 2nd approach would ruin every neutral thieves.

Make thieves not allowed to be neutral

That too would have been an ok option.

Honestly if the suggestion is take steal pry plant from thieves it better come with a total rework of the class because that is all they can really do. Adjusting their thac0, let them have circle as a defense, give them brawl, make their traps undetectable, and make a few of them much better (devil wheel, amnesia, eyeduster) because honestly they don't have a place in the game. They only work versus very poorly equipped people