Bards

Okay, I know that several people, when it comes to the bard, would say let’s have the phoenix back. Though, that was very cool and RP provoking. I prefer the feel of the Bard now, only I do think they need to be tweaked just a bit. I completely agree that Bards should dabble in a bit of everything, but I do think knowing skills that are suppose to work in conjunction to other skills, such as hide without detect hidden, does not prove to be utterly beneficial nor does it make much sense. I see them as picking up traits from other classes, not just solitary skills. My suggestions are as follows.

Replace pugil with two handed, cause pugil is not as offensive or defensive as duel wield and duel parry, at least with two handed you can stay just as defensive

Replace knockout with detect hidden, I think it makes more sense for a bard able to see that ninja or thief skulking about in the shadows with them than trying to get that knockout, that hardly ever lands. Not to mention bards do not have opening attacks nor anything they can do to a sleeping person other than steal, which works well enough while they are awake. Knockout works far less than needed if it is to be used as a method of escape, so, overall, knockout does not seem very plausible as something of use for the FL Bard.

Replace trip with doublesheath, with the song Clash of the Titans and the bard being a skilled practitioner of sleight of hand such a replacement would be of equivalent exchange

Tweak the Flight of the Concord song to work like the Fly spell with less of a duration, or turn it into a flying mount. Bards are notorious travelers so it would be reasonable for them to have modes of transportation.

Last but not least, do away with strictly RP oriented songs that do not provide any real benefit cause they are truly not needed. With smote, pmote, and emote a person could be far more creative in producing songs for special occasions.

I would like to hear some feedback, by which I mean positive criticisms. Don’t just say my ideas suck, offer a reason please, thank you.

I would like to hear some feedback, by which I mean positive criticisms. Don’t just say my ideas suck, offer a reason please, thank you.

Much of why I would wonder at this idea is due to something you point out yourself. Reasons. You say give them detect two handed Why? Giving them that makes them substantially stronger, so what is the reasoning behind it...further to the point, why is uppercut an even swap for detect hidden. I don't believe it is.

With all these changes you mention, we would see a large increase in a bard's pvp prowess. This isn't a "tweaked just a bit" suggestion, heh. I've played a bard, and its weird choices like using Pugil without two handed that gives the feel of balance due to not being a professional fighter.

Making sense isn't really the end-all consideration. Right up there with it is balance. A full reason to change a class is a combination of what makes sense for RP, and what makes sense for game balance.

I agree that purely RP songs should be changed. Specifically, they shouldn't be practiced in the standard sense. They should be the rewards of a quest. This quest would take one of two forms. Either he learns the story/song from someone, or he experiences it himself. For instance, one such song might be something like, "Clockwork Cacophony" for completing Gear. Fill in whatever adventure (epic or lesser) you like. Imagine a bard singing of a place you've never been to, or perhaps heard of. Would you be interested, maybe sit down and listen to a story? Maybe a bard might actually do some work, hehe.

The bard class should grow, but not by giving them more melee prowess, flight, and new detects. Rather it should grow deeper, and fuller in its own place. They do in fact take little bits from everywhere, and that is normal. They know just enough to be functional at certain things, not the professional dedication to hiding that would reveal a larger world wherein they could easily find anyone elses hiding spot as well, for instance. This is the same with pugil/two handed. They may know enough to get by with a staff, and as a bonus, they have seen some fighters flail it around and manage even more attacks...even picked up some of those same moves. However, they are not dedicated to it, and don't have the full understanding it takes to wield a two handed weapon (the skill).

I'm glad its being brought up, because I too believe we can make the Bard space more interesting and dynamic with the world.

hmm, I do think you have mis-read much of what I wrote...not once did I mention uppercut, it was knockout.....secondly, it does not make them stronger fighters, it makes them more geared for survival, a little more defensive with a staff with a mode of transportation makes them ready for PVP? boggles at the concept

To be honest....I do not see how a person could practice so much at being able to conceal themselves among the shadows without knowing or learning how to spot those within the shadows

Thank your for your thoughts, you bring up a few good ideas yourself.

Anybody who faught Helmsley knows bards are just fine.

Still want werebeast bards.

Dont forget bards mince anything with a vuln.

Clouds of cards arent funny. Anytime.

hmm, I do think you have mis-read much of what I wrote...not once did I mention uppercut, it was knockout.....secondly, it does not make them stronger fighters, it makes them more geared for survival, a little more defensive with a staff with a mode of transportation makes them ready for PVP? boggles at the concept

To be honest....I do not see how a person could practice so much at being able to conceal themselves among the shadows without knowing or learning how to spot those within the shadows

Thank your for your thoughts, you bring up a few good ideas yourself.

Just a mental fat finger late at night. Uppercut/Knockout, you can interchange them and it doesn't invalidate any comments really.

And believe it or not, being able to survive is actually a large part of pvp ;o).

a skilled player could be deadly with any class Aulian.....but, we all prefer certain classes for a reason wink wink

what about opening the bard up with some selectable skills? for example: you could have two types of bard---the wandering traveler with camo, q-movement, and butcher--or--the city dweller with hide, sneak, and steal? Just ideas.....just suggestions.....

You can throw me on the pyre later grin

Why wait till then?

However that brings up a random thought I had yesterday. This game is taylor made for the BEST of the BEST..

What I mean by this is that every character is balanced with others not by the average player.. But by the players that know the lands inside out (aka, people who bother to learn the route through the cuberoom off by heart.)

Just interesting, there could be a hundred race/class combo's previously until one of the same race/class is played by a very good player and all of a sudden the class needs balancing... Its just interesting.

Im not saying either is good or bad - just thought it was quite amusing...

Blademasters need a tone down, rangers need a tone down, my monk sucked so monks need a tone up. Uhh... I was thinkin about making an invoker. They need a tone up.

Fix all those and the game will be perfect.

For me.

Wait....did Aulian just say Druids need to be toned up? Is that what the Reverend heard?

Ouch Aulian.....ouch......

My suggestions were not done for my benefit....just ideas for overall improvement, then, I stumbled on the idea of selectable skills....bards, if any class, should possess diversity.....shrug.....just some suggestions....

Gotta say, I agree with whoever mentioned that the mud is balanced for the elite, and not for the normal players. Not sure how you would fix that though, or even if you can or should.

As long as I've been here playing (early 1.0) players have complained the mud was made for the "elite". It was hogwash then, and it's hogwash now. Do things need tweeked now and then? Of course. But ask yourself this question before you start complaining, "Have I done everything in my power to solve this dilemma on my own, have I logged my battles and seen both how I lost and how my opponent won, have I tried new tactics, have I tried to use terrain to my advantage, have Ibroadened my knowledge of the items and lands, have I, OH GOD, have I dropped a note to the Immortals with all this info FIRST before bringing it the forum?"

Too many people mistake unbalance with frustration.

i used to think elite knowledge was the case in this game until i realized that i spent 7 off and on years finding most of what i know on my own. people around here, some of them, also have no problem whatsoever spelling things out for you either. one of Dey's invokers (found out who he was after his delete thread) showed one of my characters all kinds of tricks just because i interacted with him and wasnt a jerk. i routinely show characters items, places and things if they are somewhat interesting and they bother to interact with me. this place rewards play, it's that simple.

I was thinking simply of equipment, not the other stuff. shrug

Ok, so I have been throwing this idea out forever, can I get a real opinion and imm response on the idea of werebeast bards?

werebeast bard? I think they wouldn't be a very good fit, only because when I think of werebeasts I tend to think of "Grab your pitchfork fellow townsperson there is a werewolf on the loose." instead of "Look at that guitarist, he is so dreamy with the leather pants and the bear feet. You know what they say about guys with big feet right?"

Although the RP avenue it opens is interesting...rock star with a dark secret?!?!? Sounds like money to me.

i dont know about the PK-balance aspect of werebards (HBWillie you still around?), but RP-wise werebards sounds like an excellent idea to me.

werebeast bard? I think they wouldn't be a very good fit, only because when I think of werebeasts I tend to think of "Grab your pitchfork fellow townsperson there is a werewolf on the loose." instead of "Look at that guitarist, he is so dreamy with the leather pants and the bear feet. You know what they say about guys with big feet right?"

Although the RP avenue it opens is interesting...rock star with a dark secret?!?!? Sounds like money to me.

I was having a ****ty day and you just cracked me the **** up.