Ninjas, HOORAY CHANGES, well not yet.:(

Alright, I looked through that incredibly long thread about ninjas this morning and saw many complaints. Lemme try to address them all with my suggestions from hrmm, your time Crypticant. Maybe if you guys would have listened to me way back then, we wouldn't have this problem now.

Name: I personally believe the name is fine, but assassins would limit the class to being seen as only able to fight when it's that "one hit kill" fighting. Samurai would be a retarded name, seeing as ninjas were the mortal enemy of the Samurai. BUT I believe that if you're gonna keep the name as Ninja, you can't keep assassinate. So forget name changing and keep it as ninjas, rid them of assassinate.

Skills change: The way I've been looking at ninjas is kinda the same way I've looked at monks/blademasters. Screw assassinate. Gearing a class around one skill is kinda retarded. They have awesome skills for fighting, I just see them a bit low on defenses. Don't give them something ridiculous like twohanded or shield block, but I believe they should get a defense that makes the ninja anticipate an attack, avoid it, and strike a vital organ. This skill if mastered is always about a 25% probability that it would ever land. A way to make this skill more interesting would be to change study. But if you study someone, say Crypticant, and their soul bears your mark. You recognize their movements and habbits, hence making your defensive strike more of a 50% chance of happening in a round. Hence making study useful.

Another change you could look into is making them a bit more geared to trickery. Something such as an ability that draws your enemies attention, such as a lolly pop, who wouldn't want to pick one of those up? Then bam, ambush from the shadows, OUCH that hurt like a mofo. Not so much like backstab or anything like that, but maybe a traumatic strike to your kidneys. I mean really, who likes peeing blood?

This would make ninjas still geared towards being sneaky and using study, as well as being tricky and using diversions. Then choosing the right ninjitsu suited for you would make you a worthy adversary against people like those bash/bodyslam locking bastids. I dunno, maybe I went over the top with them, but that's the way I always saw ninjas.

KING DING A LING HAS SPOKEN!!!!!!

I'm not sure, but I think Ninjas are quite diverse now. On the one hand, they can fare well as an assassinater, which helps with redistributing equipment around the player base. Then there are melee ninjas too, who can fare quite well if I remember rightly - wasn't Rhazakhar (sp?) a very recent melee ninja, that scared the hell out of a lot of people?

Please, I don't want to see any posts though, of Knight Ninjas meleeing vampires with ease in 1.0 or whatever, that doesn't apply now.

Don't know how well they do as I haven't played a ninja recently properly, nor have I had much interaction with any in a long time.

To be fair, actually, just disregard my post. I don't actually know what my thoughts on ninjas are, as strange as that may seem. I don't even know why I posted.

Dey

Having been assassinated recently as a mort (yes, full loot) I still say ninjas are fine. Their one hit kill ability makes it possible to take out targets that would just be hoarding rares for years otherwise and bring the rares back into circulation as it is not overly hard to kill a ninja either if he makes a mistake.

They are also able to melee very very well with the right select choices as Rhakzalor Elder Watcher ninja demonstrated. (I think he did kill a vampire once and another few times almost by the way.)

A more recent version of the Ninja Knight 1.0 thing... Rhazhaklor(sp?) outmeleed Sirican a couple times. I was so damn shocked. So yes, Ninjas are pretty hardcore and can fare very well against melees.

(EDIT) Damn! Eshaine beat me to it.

Well see that's just it though. Assassination should never be the way to kill someone just cause they got all the best equipment in the game. Equipment should never dictate the winner of a battle. Plus if that's what assassinate is used for, why not make a cabal of assassins. Their soul purpose to re-distribute eq. Since that's what assassinate is so useful for. OR take it away, make study worth a damn rather than just a fast way of killing an over-equiped character, and make things a bit more interesting. Maybe assassinate should be a skill for them crazy sneaky guys? I dunno, it just bothers me so much that Ninjas, a group that was not trained to assassinate people. But actually trained for close quarters combat with a shortened blade, so as to catch samurai's off guard with their longer encumbering weapons. Perhaps gear them more towards close combat and things of the such. I dunno, it seems like ninjas are completely geared towards fight the weak melee classes and win, and assassinate the strong ones.

Hence I declare ninjas = crap at the present.

Well see that's just it though. Assassination should never be the way to kill someone just cause they got all the best equipment in the game. Why not? Equipment should never dictate the winner of a battle. Then why have equipment?

Plus if that's what assassinate is used for' date=' why not make a cabal of assassins. Their soul purpose to re-distribute eq.[/quote'] Syndicate?

Maybe assassinate should be a skill for them crazy sneaky guys? Like a class with invisibility, hide, and sneak?

I dunno, it just bothers me so much that Ninjas, a group that was not trained to assassinate people. But actually trained for close quarters combat with a shortened blade, so as to catch samurai's off guard with their longer encumbering weapons. Perhaps gear them more towards close combat and things of the such. I dunno, it seems like ninjas are completely geared towards fight the weak melee classes and win, and assassinate the strong ones.

Hence I declare ninjas = crap at the present.

I don't know why everyone is a wikipedia expert on ninjas. If ya notice, there is no Japan in Fl. I'm not feeding ya any bull either, type 'areas' in game, not once is Japan listed.

WC

ninjas are fine. they have the capability to be stealthy (study, assassinate) and be melee class with maledictive skills (caltraps, nerve). they are extremely versatile. while i always didn't like the name, it's only a superficial thing. the name doesn't matter.

people with the best gear in the game will die, assassinated or not. people are human, they make mistakes. or someone uses a creative tactic or strategy for the kill. ninjas are not "just to redistibute EQ". the merely offer another way to fully develop different RP.

also, as has been said before, while we strive to be realistic in this little game of ours, not everything must be changed to reflect real life. it's a fantasy game. just play it. it's not a balance issue, so why change it?

I don't know why everyone is a wikipedia expert on ninjas. If ya notice' date=' there is no Japan in Fl. I'm not feeding ya any bull either, type 'areas' in game, not once is Japan listed.[/quote']

Agreed. And Jedi_Donkey...ninjas were indeed assassins, it depends on which sect of them you look at. If you were going to complain about anything, ninjas should get a ranger-like throw. But they won't, because they are already quite powerful when played as is.

And wow...I hope that nobody actually uses wikipedia as their reference material on ninjas, I decided to go browse it and lo and behold, they reference G.I. Joe as evidence that ninjas may have had multi-colored costuming.

I was going to say something here, but then I read WC's post and realized he already said my opinions.

but assassins would limit the class to being seen as only able to fight when it's that "one hit kill" fighting.

The word assassin has just as much as a cultural connotation as the word ninja does.

But if you study someone, say Crypticant, and their soul bears your mark. You recognize their movements and habbits, hence making your defensive strike more of a 50% chance of happening in a round. Hence making study useful.

Actually, I do like this part a lot. If we were ever trying to get rid of assassinate as a skill (not going to happen probably), using study to fight would be very good and interesting. I'm not sure about the critical strikes though.

Another change you could look into is making them a bit more geared to trickery.

I am also all for this. Rogues should be rewarded the most for creativity and tactics, and if we could see some more interesting things like decoy, vanish, and push, it would definitely be good. Balance is another issue, and the ideas should be brought up in their own context, not like this.

Their one hit kill ability makes it possible to take out targets that would just be hoarding rares for years otherwise and bring the rares back into circulation as it is not overly hard to kill a ninja either if he makes a mistake.

This is why the world should be made more dangerous...aka 5% chance to be teleported instead of worded when you recall. Also, it really depends on the class. A paladin doesn't have much of a chance at all to ever kill a rogue, missing assassination or not.

I dunno, it just bothers me so much that Ninjas, a group that was not trained to assassinate people.

The ninja's main job was just murder or to do acts of terror. Ninja were basically the poor man's weapon against the more highly trained, well-equipped, and reputable samurai.

But actually trained for close quarters combat with a shortened blade, so as to catch samurai's off guard with their longer encumbering weapons.

This realllllly depends on what time period you are looking at. Since most people immediately draw their ideas of blademasters 'kensai' and ninja from sengoku jidai, we'll use that. Samurai are basically warriors in FL (use a bow for the most part, otherwise a spear..only out of the battlefield did they really use the two swords) By this time, (maybe the epitome of ninja 'skill'), samurai had already developed their anti-ninja training (draw slash and bathing together). Ninja would be what we call today 'terrorists'. Most of their training (which was usually short and poor as compared to the life-long training of samurai), dealt with the most dangerous part--getting close to their target (basically climbing, sneaking, and evasion). If you ever go to nijyojyo in kyoto, you'll find how hard it was to sneak in the fortresses of the time (floors, walls, and ceiling were designed to creak LOUDLY and you could see through a lot of the walls--and mostly just open courtyards with clear vision). The vast majority of ninja, if they were successful, died along with their targets. Ninja typically had to wait until a target was unarmored (ninjato blades are pretty crappy against katana slash-resistant armor of time) and then do the graceful act of rushing straight at them and trying to stab them to death. Not exactly glorious. The rest of their duties would be kidnapping people, poisoning animals and food, being decoys, death threats and intimidation, sometimes anti-ninja/shinobi work, etc.

Finally, FL does not base its classes on RL counterparts. While that is crappy, it would require complete reworking of both skills and balance of the ENTIRE game. While I do disagree with the ninja class as a whole, I believe it should stay as that a replacement would be very difficult and I enjoy something over nothing. They could be tweaked, but that is for another thread.

even more reason to give ninjas/thieves a skill to "drag" an unconcious victim. the stratgies for this would be infinate.

You want to go out on a date sometime Celerity?

Celerity, I'm glad you were a lot more constructive than some of the others. I'll leave names out of it, but you guys know who you are. You see, the way I'm looking at ninjas and well even necromancers with their powerword kill(which barely ever happens) is that why should there ever be the ability to just put in a little bit of stalking time to kill someone in 1 hit? What's the point in that? Because the class is not as offensive as some classes, such as invokers, and not as defensive as some classes, such as warriors, then you give them an easy way out by the assassinate skill? I mean I understand the fun in assassinating. I also understand how fun it can be as well as how hard it can be. But at the same time, it can be incredibly easy. Where as that person that got that easy assassinate would not have had any other way to kill that person. Might as well give every class assassinate/hide/study so when I can't kill someone with my warrior in melee, I can start hiding and assassinate them instead. Or when my hellstreams don't do enough damage, I'll just hide and assassinate.

On the point of Syndicate. I suppose people can look at it as being a way to re-distribute the equipment. But hey, if they truely have the purpose, don't let them have alliances. So those would be allies lose their eq as well. And hey, how about they can be bountied as well and have to collect it on eachother, hence making their equipment cycled. Nah, I see Syndicate as just another cabal that's used for good rp, if anyone would like to pick up on that anytime soon. Most of the time all they do is silently hunt people, then try to rp with them after they've killed them(AKA pissed the player off). Syndicate <> Assassins Clan.

But anyways, I still see Ninjas as much more than someone who tries once, tries twice, then gives up and assassinates ftw. I dunno, I just think this class has a lot more potential in them, if a few things are taken away and some given to them.

I hate being assassinated and would derive no pleasure from assassinating even the most heavily armed badass in the game. I say make assassination a form of ninjitsu. If a ninja wants to be able to assassinate, make him specialize in it. Get rid of Falcon Eye altogether. Just my opinion. Feel free to shoot it down.

Powerword is far from a one hit kill, and requires you to be in combat with your target for a while before you even have a chance at landing it. My love of assassinate comes from back when ninjas COULDN'T outmelee people at 50 without huge advantages in eq, cabal, or preparedness. I'd rather see ninjas turned back into pure assassins than have them lose assassinate and be made even more melee.

Sorry if someone already posted this idea, but I think it would solve almost everyone's problems with ninjas if Assassinate/Study were moved into a Lore selection ability instead of a given for all ninjas. Then they have to lose -something- to have such a powerful, amazingly useable (I have been assassinated from being studied -while fighting-) ability.

Edit I thought I'd reached the end of the thread. Dammit, Willie.

Look i'm sure this is coming from you getting assassinated at some point, and yes there are a few ninjas who are actually landing assassinate about now but before that I don't really recall any ninjas being able to do it very well, and if you don't like it then just stay poisoned when in towns and when in town then just move quickly through it, i've been playing here now for probably arond 6ish years and i've only been assassinated about 8-10 times so its not something that happens every time, and if it bothers you that much roll up a melee ninja with the doublesheath so you get the murder and fleeing throw and then you can see them all the time and just go melee them, i assure you ninja's are good at melee.

I really don't see why they need to get tweaked or fixed I like the class as it is although I do think because of their skill choices they should be called assassins not all assassins hid in the shadows to plunge a knife in someone some of them used poisons and other things and while these poisons here don't kill they are still used. and also Nerve, to strike and disable by hitting the pressure points and such.

if you want a fantasy assassin stuff although the character plays different rolls just read the Farseer trilogy by Robin Hobb. he wasn't the Ideal assassin but he was trained as one, and while he learned more of poison he also was taught things I mentioned above, and the "ninja's" of FL are taught these things they are just toned down for balance issues but they are there.

You cannot be studied by a ninja who is in combat. A ninja can only study while not fighting, then must meditate between study sessions to memorize what he learned. To make this easier to understand, here's a scenario:

Ninja wants to kill Bob

Ninja starts studying Bob

First study session ends

Ninja meditates for a few ticks, memorizes what he's gotten so far.

Ninja starts studying Bob again

Bob attacks Ninja, Ninja flees

Ninja has now forgotten everything he got between that last bit of meditating and the last round of combat. He has the original memorization, but doesn't have anything from study session 2.

Also, from my ninja, assassinating wasn't very easy. You have to study at least two sessions to get a death mark. That isn't easy when the person is moving around. Especially if they know you are around. It also isn't easy for a ninja to go pure melee. Ninjas can't have huge ac/saves AND hit/dam, they must sacrifice one or the other. Also, assassinate isn't as nearly as reliable as most skills are. To be a good assassin is to be a skilled player. To be a good melee ninja is to be a skilled player. A newbie with a ninja isn't going to be able to acomplish a lot. While that isn't always the case, ninjas are not an easy class to play. They are fine the way they are, and if you take out assassinate, why would anyone play one? They are less defensive AND offensive as a warrior, and they do not have enough stealth/traps to be comparable to a thief, so they are basically a gimped warrior with hide/sneak.

Look i'm sure this is coming from you getting assassinated at some point, and yes there are a few ninjas who are actually landing assassinate about now but before that I don't really recall any ninjas being able to do it very well, and if you don't like it then just stay poisoned when in towns and when in town then just move quickly through it, i've been playing here now for probably arond 6ish years and i've only been assassinated about 8-10 times so its not something that happens every time, and if it bothers you that much roll up a melee ninja with the doublesheath so you get the murder and fleeing throw and then you can see them all the time and just go melee them, i assure you ninja's are good at melee.

That's probably the longest run-on sentence I've ever seen. You do know, poison doesn't help against assassination? You don't have to be asleep for a ninja to assassinate you.

Also' date=' from my ninja, assassinating wasn't very easy. You have to study at least two sessions to get a death mark. That isn't easy when the person is moving around.[/quote']

What if they're sitting still, RPing? Some people enjoy tea parties.

They are fine the way they are' date=' and if you take out assassinate, why would anyone play one? They are less defensive AND offensive as a warrior, and they do not have enough stealth/traps to be comparable to a thief, so they are basically a gimped warrior with hide/sneak.[/quote']

This is why we offer changes. To make them more melee-based. If they're perfectly fine, so many people wouldn't have spoken up. Though I realize everyone can't be happy, it's worth considering what ninjas could be like if altered.