Double Round Auto Assists.

I know these are sensitive subjects, so please everyone try and remain civil.

I believe, and some others do as well, that there is an innate imbalance in the mud regarding pets.   Though please read over my points below before drawing a conclusion. 

1. As it stands today if ANYONE joins a battle via "autoassist" mechanics they enter combat with 2 rounds of melee offense.  You can see it in all of our PK logs.  Go up against a ranger that first round will always deliver 2x his normal per round damage output.  

2. The problem is that defensively, only our melee and some hybrid classes have the ability to even stand against this.  The victims of this are any class with only Parry, followed by classes with only 2 defenses.  They also typiclaly have less hp, ranging from 800 to 1200.  From my testing the incoming is often times 200 to 300 points of damage which is a huge % of the targets over all hp pool. 

3.  This also works the other way.  If you order your pets to rescue, and have auto assist on, you get a double round.  I personally look at rescue as an attack with 2 rounds of lag.  I get  a guaranteed double strike just because I rescue myself with a pet.  It works every time, without fail.  Against mobs and players alike.  If you don't believe me, then go and test it.  Fight a mob with ANY charmie.  Then rescue yourself.  You will ALWAYS get 2x hits on the round you reengage.  It is actually so effective that if a mob quickly switches back to you after a rescue, it is to your advantage because you can do it again. 

1. This front loads necro's and rangers, giving them 200% damage output in that first round every new engage.  In order to keep it up all they have to do is flee.  The Ranger has the added bonus of using the "double strike" technique to rescue themselves.  You will notice going through the logs that a lot of our strong ranger pk'ers use this technique over and over and over again both by rescuing themselves, and by re-engaging.  This also gives ANY melee with a cabal pet the ability to "double strike" whenever they have the ability to rescue.  So Nexus, Knights, Watcher's, Tribunals, can ALL do this.  

2. The advantage is STRONGLY favored towards Melee.  Only necro's from the CC side actually get any real benefit, followed by combat cleric's.  Melee's especially feral's and beasts seem to get the MOST Mileage.  Though ANYONE who is hasted, if they rescue themselves will lay down often 10 attacks. 

My suggestion is to rectify this.  Why is this even part of the game? Pets shold engage, but 2 rounds every-time without fail? come on.  Also the mud is not inherently balanced around a Warrior using their nexus pet to self rescue and get double the output every-time.   This mechanic favors melees who can not only defend the double rounds better, but can take advantage of it with high degrees of success.  

This needs to be removed.  Joining a battle via Autoassist should NOT mean you get 2 rounds of melee for the price of one.

I've never intentionally done this. I don't even think about doing this..

Then you don't experiment enough to notice.  BUT you DO take advantage of it.  If you have ever attacked a player as a pet class, your pets have gone in at 200% every single time.  It doesn't matter if you proactively try to do it or not, it still occurs.

BTW, as I am pointing this out.  please realize this would also be a nerf to my own character currently as well.  This isn't a bid to "weaken" a particular character or foe.  It is in my honest opinion a fundamental flaw in the balance and PK of FL that needs to be rectified.

I agree with you on this, it is even worse against those who don't have blind fighting. If a ranger opens with dirt for example, you are gonna get raped by his army. If you flee right away you just make it worse because the next engage will be another double round and this is true even if you get the jump on them. Staying in combat seems like the best way to avoid these double rounds but as you pointed out if you do that the ranger can then flee and re-engage or rescue for more double rounds. Double rounds with pets REALLY adds up to a LOT of damage very fast. I think it should be looked at.

I would just like to mention at the same time I also think wimpy should be looked at. I know it is a different topic but it relates, because one of the best ways to avoid massive double rounds like the ones we are talking about is to set your wimpy as high as possible. I think it is equally unfair that someone can prematurely flee in the middle of a round. If both double rounds and wimpy were fixed I think it would be very healthy for the game as a whole.

That's my 2 cents.

I typically set wimpy very low.  But i also highlight incoming damage per round and have a secondary trigger that flees if that amount is over certain asjustable percent of my current hp.  Anyone can do this btw. 

Lowering the wimpy percentage would also be prudent.  Though that is another discussion as you dutifully pointed put. 

You are right to point out the impact of dirt.  And also how the double round autoassist becomes a defense.  I fought rangers who just let the burst happen then flee everytime.

There are certain steps which one must take in order to take advantage of this bug (or feature, depending on what the IMMs say).

I am not going to argue about whether this is fair, or not. It's obviosly that, if executed correctly, it gives melee classes with a pet, quite a big advantage. I've personally abused this big time.

What I am going to argue about though, is your (@Kyzarius), general sense of balance.

Right now there are two bugs (or features) that generally counter each other.

One is the one you described. Lets call it the "double murder round mechanic (DMR)"

The other one though, is the "wimpy mechanic".

Spoiler

Now for those who are not familiar with the "wimpy mechanic", I will just explain shortly - it's a mechanic which when your HP drops bellow a certain percentage, the game flees for you. But this is not a normal flee. It's a lag free flee, and one that will attempt to flee immediately, meaning if a melee does 8 attacks per round, and your HP goes down bellow the wimpy threshold on his first attack, it will not wait for the whole round to pass (and then flee), but will flee immediately after the first landed attack. Whick effectively cuts the melee round in half, and is a mechanic which can not be echieved by a normal flee command. It also gives mages a tremendous advantage against melees, since melees relly on in-round damage from melee attacks, while mages relly on between-round spells. This mechanic is so broken and bugged, that it will actually cut between and make you flee on multihit spells like magic missile.

If you want to community to fairly discuss the "DMR" mechanic, then it's only normal to raise a discussion on the "wimpy mechanic" as well.

Now you, have not only abused the wimpy mechanic greatly, but have also defended it vigorously. Here is my question to you - do you consider the "DMR" as one which gives an unfair advantage to melees, but then do not consdier the "wimpy mechanic" as one that gives an unfair advantage to mages?

I personally consider both mechanics as broken and in need of fix. BOTH.

It would be unfair though, if one gets fixed while the other left in tact.

Lol @Manual Labour's post. It came out while I was writing mine.

Having my opponent set their wimpy as high as they can then auto-flee on an arrow hit is probably the single greatest source of my frustration and robs me of many more wins than anything else.

Actually calling it anything with murder round in it, is inaccurate.

It has nothing to do with murder rounds.  And everything with autoassisting.

If you are not autoassisting, and type murder target focused on someone who is already fighting there is no guarantee.  

I dont want this to get confused with the weird pulse overlap that sometimes gets two rounds to look like they occur at the same time. But really you just typed murder very close to the next pulse. Because this is not that.

Though that being said, if wimpy is the supposed counter point then remove it.  That though just puts "autoflee" as yet another thing that will happen client side.  Do we want to do that? Make it less newbie friendly?

2 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

Though that being said, if wimpy is the supposed counter point then remove it.  That though just puts "autoflee" as yet another thing that will happen client side.

Your client side "flee trigger" will not cut rounds in half though.

And will not flee lag-free.

No it will not.  And only be lag free if you have skill/spells that allow it. 

But if im not eating 20% of my hp every opener then i shouldnt need to.

I think you are correct in correlating the two.   

This change would cut the ope ing rounds of pet classes im half.  It would also not allow melee only classes the ability for controlled bursts.  Both of these things are key contributors to why cc and minimal defensive classes end up relying on wimpy.

By example The warrior cant dirt, then flee, then walk back in and rengage at 200% output because they autoassist their black dragon.

8 minutes ago, f0xx said:

Your client side "flee trigger" will not cut rounds in half though.

And will not flee lag-free.

Sounds like people wish both topics to be discussed. Perhaps give each its own seperate thread so we stay on point?

They related in a way though, I think it's ok to discuss both together here.

Yeah i ageee that they go hand in hand.  This is a lot of dps output across the entire mud.  Wimpy is a tool that lets you prepare for late fight burst damage.  And this would directly address that. 

Think about it...Everytime you engage your knight avatar, blood guard, charmie, pets.. they all go twice.  I believe they attempt lag skills, dirt. And other things twice as well.  You can see it tonthe extreme in ranger and necro logs.  The leopard gets 8 attacks and trips twice.  The contribution due to defense skill distribution  is also heavily tilted against CC classes.  While wimpy is used to bresk these rounds.

11 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

No it will not.  And only be lag free if you have skill/spells that allow it.

Not it will not be lag-free under any circumstance, since the flee command itself has lag, something like 1/4 of a round, however many pulses that is, while wimpy-flee on the other end has no lag at all.

If everyone is fine with wimpy being properly reworked (note: not completely removed) then I think everyone will be fine with double assist rounds being looked at. I even think it will be proper to give melees another skill with 1 round of lag that can be used just for engaging your opponents, instead of murder. Or just rework murder.

Though I give credit to both issues being a problem, one can be done proactively while the other can only be done re-actively.

In this current meta of burst, proactive does mean quite a bit.  So I would not say the two are equal, but they definitely are both

problems along different lines.

Double rounds increases someone's offense.  Wimpy saves someone life, so it is defensive.

Double rounds can be done at ANY point of time depending upon the skill of the players involved if you have the requisite mobs.

Wimpy can only be done when you are below a certain threshold regardless of skills or pro activity and then it can save an individual.

I agree with @Kyzarius about wimpy not really being compared with double rounds because of that.  Especially as it affects certain combos

and cabals only.  Notice Warmaster, Savant and Syndicate are left out of the cabal charmy discussion.

3 minutes ago, f0xx said:

Not it will not be lag-free under any circumstance, since the flee command itself has lag, something like 1/4 of a round, however many pulses that is, while wimpy-flee on the other end has no lag at all.

If everyone is fine with wimpy being properly reworked (note: not completely removed) then I think everyone will be fine with double assist rounds being looked at. I even think it will be proper to give melees another skill with 1 round of lag that can be used just for engaging your opponents, instead of murder. Or just rework murder.

I'd agree with this if both are reworked and implemented at the same time.

Wimpy does take into account lag. It however fires on a pulse, not a round. Hits per round also fire on pulses and not rounds, and that’s how “second attack” to “fifth/sixth attack” work - pulses. 

Right now nearly every merc rom based MUD uses pulses as a time between client responsiveness. If I start to mess with this, things will begin to play a lot differently. Including poison damage, skills and some regen. 

Its not a bug or feature - it’s just how the game interprets commands and connectivity.

So making wimpy only kick in between rounds or after an entire spell finished firing (ie magic missile) would break other aspects of the game?

I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious.