A Mark

Unless they do it on the main path, you'd never really have to worry about you leaving a mark on the ground. Not only that, but depending on where you do it, you could be near an area that branches off to multiple areas and a few of those are even capable of being near other areas that if you choose one path you could very well end up never finding the person again. I'll use an example that happened to me a year ago though for instance.

I went in to kill an Illithid while we were ~30, and I managed to send him into shock almost immediately which gave him full health and no mana which can lead to the death of most people still. The downside is I tried something I typically don't unless I'm at 50 or aiming to use wands/scrolls to hit vulns in general. That was in Everwild, and because of the lag from a scroll by the time I got out to see where he was, he was already out of the area. First instinct was head to Miruvhor though the Underdark was still a possibility. I got to Miruvhor and no one and the gate was closed as well (still a possibility he passed through it or went the route of the river), so I pushed on hoping that was the case. By the time I hit the Forsaken Lands, I didn't see the camouflaged creature come out of hiding and get killed so with the 8 people online I had a good chance of being on their tail. The downside to this though is that any other person could've triggered it, and if he recalled I have three towns to pick from, though if it's Miruvhor he wouldn't have managed to get away in the end. I took the risk and chose to hit the Ford where I did catch the very end of him heading into Ralardia which I bolted to chase after that. If at any point there even were signs for recalling/teleporting it wouldn't have taken much for me to miss them once he hit the Ford or even just within the Haunted Grove he could have easily done so as well. I could have spent my entire time combing through two areas before they quit out if I were intent on finding out something like that instead of just giving chase. It wouldn't give anyone an edge one way or the other unless they did it on the main path or the path that you personally take.

Essentially you're not punishing anyone for that though by adding it. You can still freely chase, and there have been times that I had to recall from a fight after being hunted by Paladins at low levels plenty of times. I once managed to run quite far before and regardless of how far I had run, and they still managed to find me even without the mark. It will ultimately come down to the skill of a chaser more than anything else, where as this edge would only serve to probably harm more people than help. For instance what if you're chasing and you see the mark that someone recalled? It wouldn't necessarily tell you who recalled, you could have easily come across someone else's mark and now you're off running after someone who wasn't your original mark at all. It gives people plenty of time to then log off and come back at another time instead. But that's just my thoughts.

5 hours ago, Aidon said:

I don't like the idea of making classes designed to be more survivable less survivable, in general.

It doesn't make them less survivable. It makes them have to put some thought first before recalling.

Recall is a way too easy to use "get me to safety" button. It used to be balanced because of the high PB numbers, but nowadays there's noone in the cities most of the time.

2 hours ago, f0xx said:

It used to be balanced because of the high PB numbers, but nowadays there's noone in the cities most of the time.

Unless ya know, its Marak or the hive or any of the other racial recall points in which point this was never true.

I don't really see any mages or communers running rampart to the point they need a nerf, regardless of the form and if your main problem is they recall too much, that means you're winning the engagements consistently, so why do they need a nerf again?

1 hour ago, Wade said:

I don't really see any mages or communers running rampart to the point they need a nerf.

This is not a communer (nor a mage) nerf. It's going to affect anyone that uses recall, no matter spell or consumable. 

1 hour ago, Wade said:

if your main problem is they recall too much, that means you're winning the engagements consistently, so why do they need a nerf again?

This is no nerf to begin with. The person that uses recall does not lose any functionality. The only thing that happens is the person who chases is made aware that his target recalled (if the target is careless to recall in an obvious spot). Good PKers don't need such a sign to begin with, since they know when their target recalls. As for mages, most of them recall in mid-fight anyway.

If anything, this is an incentive for people to pick better recall spots.

now now, lets be real here.  This would effect CC's more than anyone.  They rely on recall sometimes as their only way to escape.  Saying it will effect all who use recall is true, but not for the sake of balancing.  

And they do lose functionality.  They lose the ability to recall without tipping the enemy off that they have.  Ducking into an area with multiple junctures then recalling is a staple move for a CC.  You would take that away? 

If you think the nerf to fleeing is needed, then ok.  But don't try to minimize the impact.

9 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

 Ducking into an area with multiple junctures then recalling is a staple move for a CC.  You would take that away?

A mark does not take that away at all. If you duck off a multiple juncture, your recall 'mark' could be anywhere and would be very difficult to find. Anybody who spends time to look for that mark is going to lose a lot of time compared to those who just run back to the recall area on the assumption (as we do now). Even less impactful if teleport and recall have the same mark.

If you know which room a person recalled from (in order to find a mark) you also by default know if they suddenly vanished (recalled or teleport). If you don't know which room they recalled from (didn't see it because they ducked areas), then you also don't know where the mark is. Short of the mark being on the entry path of the area, you probably aren't going to find it.

Do casters really recall in PK more often than others? Maybe? Do they suffer a significant balance disadvantage with a mark compared to other recallers? Negligible.

If you argue that casters have some disadvantage when leaving a mark due to casters being more mobile, you'd also have to agree they have an advantage in pursuing a mark they find.

I don't really see this having any real balance consideration. If you are really desperate to recall, you don't hide it anyways. If you are careless by recalling on an obvious path and close to your home enough for them to take advantage...this is no change. In all other cases it is just a "Oh, he bugged out." or "Let me spend a long time looking for proof of his recall.".

Finding a mark is difficult. Being able to take advantage of a found mark is even more difficult.

Yes, the change adds a small degree of tactical play, but that is a good thing. Hardly a significant balance game changer though.

yeah it could also be the 1st juncture they pick.  Alerting them that you recalled, getting them on your ass at your temple in half the time.

I disagree Kyz. The tactic you mentioned of ducking into an area with many junctures then recalling is something I do equally across all classes, it is a staple escape tactic in general.

Even though only CCs get the spell pretty much everyone carries recall potions and when it comes to escaping it is how you use recall not if you cast it vs quaff it.

10 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

yeah it could also be the 1st juncture they pick.  Alerting them that you recalled, getting them on your ass at your temple in half the time.

Sure, it could be. Statistically, it won't be. It will quickly be a net loss of time if a player actively searches for marks. Much, much more likely to give you double or triple the recovery time in the temple than half the time, actually. By a degree * the number of exits * the number rooms you move - convergent path results. The numbers are HUGELY in favor of the recaller.

If you assume that people are going to be gamblers who look for marks, this is a huge buff for people who recall. Chasers will very quickly understand it is a mistake to look for marks and stop such searches -- unless tactically relevant. Slight buff to recaller if recaller is smart and chaser is dumb. Slight buff to chaser if chaser is smart and recaller is dumb. No real change if both are dumb or smart. This is optimal for a good change.

Net result being, no real buff or nerf.

I am sorry, but if someone is running from me and ducks and recall  leaving a mark for me to find.  then they will die faster. 

Sometimes they do it on a straight road, just because I haven't entered the area yet.  I would be chasing, thinking they just moved areas and BAM big glaring mark to tell me to turn around and catch them at their temple.

Net result being, it will tip people off to when a person has recalled sooner.  This is a combat nerf.

That sounds like a bad use of recall.

Let's say someone heads west out of Val Miran and you are chasing them.

You don't see them in Haon Dor.

Normally people check the bathhouse, the hamlet, the tombs, dune sea, and crystalmir.

If the target you are chasing went 5 rooms into the bathhouse and recalled, will you find the mark?

Odds are you will check the first room, do a where and move on.

I believe Celerity has it right, if you start looking for a mark you end up spending way more time in each area that they are no longer in, all the while buying them time on their recall lag.

Now of course this has many variables, the main one being how close on their heels were you already? The lesser the gap between chaser and chasee the more likely a recall mark will be found. But if we use the example I just gave, if their recall point is Miruhvor, or the Hive, or the Half-Drow city you wont get to the temple in time regardless (unless you recall to the same place).

At the end of the day I don't think this change actually does much so I am not for or against it. With or without a mark bad recalls are usually punished and good recalls usually leave the chaser wondering where you actually went.

In the aspect of the bathhouse, I don't even stop and do a where, I hopefully already have pass door up and I'll actually go in because there is the room you can hide in that you can't teleport out of, word out of, and keeps you off of 'where'. If I'm that close behind someone I may even double check the Sunken Ship and Crystalmir Lake/Caverns and the Sea. Typically though running into an area that has only one way in/out though is a bad move on fleeing in general depending on how far ahead you are overall. The major point to this is though that even if you're going to pick the right path to follow someone you merely only have the advantage of knowing you're on his tail, but it doesn't stop someone from going slightly off the path just to recall.

For instance if you know someone went into the chasm which is very linear, coming from Banor if you're on their tail already and they're not in the Tainted Valley, you should be able to see them still at least up until the Castle. In the off chance you're a little further behind though, they've got two and maybe three places that they've gone without recalling. You can duck into the Knights Castle in the Healer portion of it so you're not attacked. Sure you don't regen, but if you do recall that person would get out alive. There's also the room that conceals you from 'where' there as well. Then you have the possibility that they made it to Marak. All of which only pull you further away from the recall cities. Then lets say you had enough time to not just run that far ahead, but you darted down one of the earlier side paths. No one is going to go looking off those trails unless they accidentally did so because of a misstep. They'd waste even more time by searching the linear path than if they did decide to go down the exact same side path that you took just to see if you recalled or not. And if it has a 2 tick timer even, by the time you realize they did so, they're long gone. If someone knowingly recalls while on the main path, that would be their own fault for doing so. I typically try to go clear across the game before I recall, and even then I'm probably better off just running with a mount because recalling is futile in most cases due to the fact that you lose half of their moves by doing so.

Let's start off by stating that I don't foresee anyone spending time actively looking for a mark.  Anyone who does deserves to lose their quarry.  If you're that confident you're going to find a mark, then you should be that confident to start heading toward their recall point to begin with.

That being said:

If I'm going to use an area boundary to recall, I'm not going to go 5-10 rooms deep into one before I recall, I'm going to do it either as soon as I get out of sight or just before the border.  I'd rather use that time waiting out the lag than searching for a suitable site to hide my mark in.  I want my aggressor to waste the time wondering which area I went to, or if I recalled.  The sooner I recall and the longer they search various areas, the better off I am.

A mark would all but negate that.

All things being equal, the advantage is with the runner.  Every time the chaser does a where and processes that information is an extra room or two for the runner.  If the chaser is anyone of any skill, you won't be getting many of those.  This suggestion would force you to spend that precious space in the hopes that your aggressor won't find the mark or simply watch you disappear.  If your chaser happens to be hot on your heels and watches you enter into an area, suddenly you're gone, it wouldn't matter if they find your mark because you hid it.  The effect is the same.  In this case, you might as well have recalled immediately and saved yourself some movement points.

In most other aspects, it shouldn't matter nearly as much either way, if at all.

Either way, there's more negatives than positives in its current form.

@Aidon: Giving this to ranger trackers is virtually redundant.

Tactic lost.

I like to stand at the edge of an area, for instance the western gate of Val Miran, to make sure my enemy sees me. Then recall. While you are searching the bath house, caverns, hoan dor, tombs or what ever, I am slipping through the shadows of Miruvhor.

But, now I have to change what I do in order to survive (not prey upon others), because someone was having trouble finding me and suggested a change.

Think about that.

2 minutes ago, Fool_Hardy said:

Tactic lost.

I like to stand at the edge of an area, for instance the western gate of Val Miran, to make sure my enemy sees me. Then recall. While you are searching the bath house, caverns, hoan dor, tombs or what ever, I am slipping through the shadows of Miruvhor.

But, now I have to change what I do in order to survive (not prey upon others), because someone was having trouble finding me and suggested a change.

Think about that.

This. This is what I do--alot. I recall at a juncture, because going off the path to recall is enough time for them to know you didn't go into one of the junctures. If I have 10-20 rooms on my enemy, enough to go off the path and recall before they enter the area-- I probably didn't need recall and could have lost them in other ways.

To save time we should just have recall bring you to your enemy who then kills you. Recall is a death trap. 

I usually go to my hometown and run around in circles until I am out of moves and then recall.

Right. I hardly ever use recall as a defensive tool. You can run circles in any of the cities all day if you don't have a move regen debuff -- and almost all day even if you do (long enough to wear out the debuff usually anyways). Even the best chasers in the game cannot catch you if you have a circle path (even in a single area) with a couple of junctions. Doesn't matter if they can see you or not...in 2.5 minutes you'll likely be healed back to full and they weren't healing much because they were chasing you in a circle.

For me, recall is a tool used to cut off a runner or otherwise cut across the game world. That is, it is more useful for chasing or leading than escape. So, I don't choose the defensive recall hometowns for that reason. I want to catch people with my recall, not run away from them. Usually the best choice for a hometown is a city between your cabal and hardcoded vendetta, if possible.

If you simply want to avoid a fight against any opponent, cycling teleport and recall will keep you invulnerable and untouchable. Unless you share a recall point (which again, kudos to the chaser for that). If you share a recall point, you'll always recall first and you'll almost certainly share that recall in one of the cities. That means you can just loop since you have a head start anyways.

--

As for the argument of leading to the edge of a area, letting them see you, and dipping out to recall -- that implies you have enough distance to wait at the edge of an area for them to see you. If you have that kind of distance the mark is pretty irrelevant anyways, even if they see it. Especially since this only works in a junction area (since you are hoping they guess you ran through the area instead of recalling when they arrive). If it is a junction area, by definition you can hide your mark easily.

If it is not a junction area (Knight Chasm): As soon as they hit that first room and see you aren't there, they know you recalled anyways (since they know you can't run through the area that fast). The mark is irrelevant again.

45 minutes ago, Celerity said:

I hardly ever use recall as a defensive tool.

I agree.  From an offensive standpoint, it's really not a detriment at all.

But not everyone uses recalls offensively.  To add this in as its currently suggested virtually destroys the defensive capabilities of this ability.

Maybe I'm just daft or perhaps I just don't think that way, but I don't see it as being the destruction of the use of it in a defensive manner. I myself have stood at the end of an area to entice someone to take a bite that I knew I'd beat and have done so years ago. I've also done that in a defensive position to lure them away from my recall as far as possible so I can do so, or trick them into thinking I went any number of ways so that I could recall shortly after. Each of those times though I never do it immediately in the next room though, it's usually something I do right after taking a side path that's close by. I have done that a handful of times and it always bites me in the ass, especially way back in 1.0 when I would do so and the next thing I know, I'm getting bent over near my pit and double stuffed by the oreo fun bus. I don't even use it most of the time unless I have the spell or am in an area that you can't easily get out of without recalling more specifically because I can usually outrun people who are trying to kill me. Otherwise though, there's no point to it for me when most people who can curse you already do so, and it also drops my hitroll significantly as well as my saves. I can run in the wind faster than most and it comes in far more handy, especially lately it seems, than most other times.

If you go off the juncture to recall it doesn't always give them enough time to catch up. It depends on how much of a head start you have compared to them, and how deep you're wanting to go in that juncture. Think of the Underdark here. If you're 10 rooms ahead of them, yeah, they'll probably catch up depending on how well they know it. Every time you type in the wrong direction that you can't go though slows you down and the same goes for them. I've had 10 room distance become 2 rooms because I was a moron and forgot how many 'west' directions I had already input. I've also caught up to people doing the same thing. For me I seem to average about 25 rooms or so per tick. Meaning all I'm doing is typing directions. BUT if I were to put in an alias in my client to go to the same area, I can usually get more than that and still maintain the ability to catch the tick to sleep as well. Going off to a junction that you know well that very few people would actually be able to capitalize on it is very slim regardless if it were implemented. You adapt to change typically, so 3 more rooms in some cases isn't all that bad. If you're wanting to taunt your opponent, do so in a place that you can't get to easily if they can summon you and go to a nosummon room and taunt all you want to. Then quit out. I've gotten my kicks off that way before, and it's usually more satisfying because there's no adrenaline surging through me after and it allows me to choose my words carefully.

Like I said, I don't believe it 'virtually destroys the defensive capabilities' of recall.

Nobody has put forth a case where it even more than slightly has an effect on the defensive capabilities of recall, much less such completely changes it.

Case 1: Runner recalls from battle.

Mark is on ground, chaser already knew.

Case 2: Runner flees and recalls one room away.

Mark is on ground, chaser has a 99.999% chance of already knowing the target recalled on a where.

Case 3: Close chase (same area), runner recalls on chasing path.

Chaser runs across mark on ground and stops chasing forward. Might save the chaser the lag cost of a 'where', but most chasers already know the recall happened at that distance.

Case 4: Close chase, runner recalls off chasing path.

Chaser doesn't know if the target recalled or not, just as now. May opt to spend time looking for a mark, but this will backfire if no recall or takes more than a couple of rooms to find it. Better to either chase forward or straight to runner's recall without the mark verification.

Case 5: Distant chase (out of area), runner recalls on chasing path.

Chaser catches up to the recall room and knows the runner recalled. Chaser redirects, but still, even executed perfectly, the same distance behind as they were before + hometown distance.

Case 6: Distant chase, runner recalls off chasing path.

Chaser doesn't know if the runner recalled or not, just as now. Even more, the chaser doesn't even know where to begin looking for a mark. Huge waste of time to search for one. Either commit to the chasing forward or back to runner's recall, same as now.

Case 7: Medium chase (chaser see runner leave the area as the chaser enters it), runner recalls on chasing path.

Chaser finds out the target recalls after running the length of the area and heads to runner's recall. Runner increases their lead, but doesn't completely end the chase.

Case 8: Medium chase, target recalls off chasing path.

Chaser again must choose to search for the mark, chase forward, or back to runner's recall. Searching for the mark is the worst choice here, vastly increasing the runner's distance no matter if they recalled or not. Chase is ended in that case.

--

So this the range of balance changes of this suggestion is as follows:

Slightly helps the chaser if they find a mark immediately and didn't know if the target had recalled and has some way to exploit knowledge of the recall. This benefit is on the order of a few seconds gained. This is all but negated by the runner moving a room or two off the chasing path.

Has no effect if the chaser isn't concerned with finding a mark. Same situation as now.

Has a scaling loss to the chaser the more time they spend looking for the mark. This caps at 2 ticks when chaser knows the mark is gone.

To all but a perfect chaser, the mark will either have no effect or hurt the chaser. Searching for a mark is actually a time-wasting trap. Don't spend time looking for a mark.

--

Recalling defensively is also a trap. You are taking yourself out of a desperate situation (whatever forced you to recall) and gambling. You don't know what will be at your pit and you don't have any ability to react once you get there. You take yourself from a position in which you have full control and gamble it away on an easy escape.

At a certain level of play, this is simply too dangerous. Sure, you might survive almost all of your recalls, but eventually something will kill you there.

Then you'll complain about pit-humping and gangers when in fact you were the one who made the risky move to recall. At least run off your bloody timer before recalling.

There are very few situations in which a chaser is more dangerous than the recall lag, ESPECIALLY when you are weakened from a fight.

This is also why you don't curse people. They'll die more often from their own recalling over time than from your cursing. :P

--

Now what would be interesting is if people had ways of exploiting the mark, should they find it. Like following them through. Recalling in the room with a mark recalls you to that mark's recall point with extra lag. Now we'd have something very interesting for both offensive and defensive purposes.

Recalling my charmie from a room I think I will force you to recall from. When you recall, I know you'll have a longer lag than my recall and I'll get free hits on you. Recalling early and getting free hits on the opponent who chases you. Recalling close and finishing your chaser off at YOUR pit. Recalling my charmie at my own pit and getting a free kill if you try to warp out. Having you chase through my mark and setting a new mark at my pit (or one room off), maybe getting you to recall back to me again with huge lag. Setting up a trap at my own pit for you...recall my charmie and keep running, but you follow my charmie back to my pit with huge lag. All sorts of neat things come to mind...

Well heck, half of these work under the suggested mark system. Recall my charmie to make you think I recalled. The tricks are so easy you couldn't even trust a mark should you find one.