If you were to revamp Ninjas... How would you do it?

This thread stemmed from here and I decided it needed to be it's own rather than continuing to derail the topic.

Okay, I hereby consider this thread derailed with out hope of saving. In the spirit of that derailment... I will join in.

 

I agree. That's right! I said it. I agree. I never thought the idea "ninja" agreed with the lore of FL. Because it doesn't. We basically brought Samurai into FL but they didn't fit the lore or theme either, so we decided to call them Blademasters and made them fit. Let's do the same with ninjas.

 

Assassinate is stupid. Not that I haven't enjoyed it in the past but it takes a ton of skill yet at the same time lends itself to the idea that it takes zero. It is annoying an I can think of far better ways to address the need to kill "buff" characters that never die.

 

Another -- Ninjas should be more melee capable than they currently are. At the moment if you want a melee rogue, Thief is the strongest choice (by far). Shadow strike is supposed to make ninjas far more melee capable. I can tell you, in it's current state -- it fails in that regard.

 

Duelist. Everyone right now thinking about ninjas. Stop. Think "duelist" type of abilities. A rogue-like combatant that must use a combination of skill, strength, and dexterity to weave in and around the battle. I'm thinking the same amount or zero spells. Not another Blademaster type class.

 

They wield only one weapon at a time. No dual wielding. One hand is empty, no shields. They need this free hand in order to properly balance themselves in combat and execute their abilities with the required finesse.

 

Like monks, these assassins cannot wear heavy equipment -- speed is their savior and heavy equipment results in encumbrance and reduced abilities in combat. Some have been known to hold little charms in their offhand. Some a string of beads, others wrap the offhand with a flowing red silk which streams around while they move - distracting their enemies.

 

Study: These assassins, much like the ninjas before them, study the movements and habits of their foes before engaging in combat. The culmination of these efforts leads the assassin to hit much more frequently and become able to avoid attacks with much higher frequency. (I'm thinking full study results in 50% more hitting and 70% less being hit by melee. -- Equipment is still necessary NO hardcoded crap like current shadow arts.)

 

With 50% of a study complete the target gains a flag or something to that affect and they can be seen even while hidden. (Read hidden, not camo)

 

Skills: The exact same skills ninjas currently have.

EXCEPT:

    selections

    assassinate

    grapple

    dual wield

    pugil

    fired weapons

    detect hidden

 

ADD:

    doublesheath

    brawl

    balance

    sense movement

    blind fighting

    counter

    shadow arts (In it's current state, at least allow more than one per combat round)

    blood vow (or something to give a hitroll boost -- Ya know, since they get encumbered)

    quiet movement

 

    Unique: Envenom can be used on bladed weapons (sword, dagger)

    Unique: When wielding 1 weapon and offhand free (except for special trinket or whatever) they will almost always execute all possible attacks. (3 attacks, 4 in city terrain) If offhand is not free or they are encumbered. They LOSE: Balance. Blind fighting. Shadow arts. Counter. All other skills reduce by 20.

 

They would gain paths that, as Fool_hardy said, change their nature a bit. One path would return detect hidden and give the peek skill and possibly more.

 

The above would probably need some tweaking but I think it would make for a much more interesting experience. For everyone involved.   

 

Eh? What do ya'll think? I want to play the above class.

level 30: Shadow Path

The following selections are available to you;

Path of Combat, Path of Magic, Path of Death

Path of War - This option grants the ninja a bonus to health with each new level, a bonus to hitgain, and raises the maximum percentage for defenses to 101%. Severely decreases the chance to land Assassinate.

Path of Magic - This option grants the ninja a bonus to mana with each new level, a bonus to managain, and increases the effect of endure and cure light. Moderately decreases the chance to land Assassinate.

Path of Death - This option grants the ninja a bonus to movement with each new level, a bonus to movegain, and increases the effect of maledictions used by the ninja. Does not hinder the chance to land Assassinate.

Level 35: Level 45: Level 50: Shadow Lore

Path of Combat: The following selections are available to you;

Dual Parry, Blind Fighting, Balance

Path of Magic: The following selections are available to you;

Energy Drain, Color Spray, Dispel Magic

Path of Death: The following selections are available to you;

Camouflage, Quiet Movement, Keen Sight

I would leave ninjitsu alone, and add something like the above to the class. But that's just me.

Edit: Second thoughts on Color Spray, open to suggestion, perhaps cure serious?

Path of Death: The following selections are available to you;

Camouflage, Quiet Movement, Keen Sight

Path of Death - This option grants the ninja a bonus to movement with each new level, a bonus to movegain, and increases the effect of maledictions used by the ninja. Does not hinder the chance to land Assassinate.

Erm...

So.... Path of Death can hide literally anywhere except water?  With buffed mals?  That seems like it is a super direct buff to current assassin ninjas.  Your territory gets more than doubled..  Path of War is a blademaster without most of the offense plus hide and balance not being tied to a stance. I mean, that's nice but it is kind of vanilla.  Energy drain is a SUPER dangerous spell to just be handing out by the way.  Your path of magic seems more like an anti-mage path.  

That seems super overly negative and it is only because I saw the idea and felt like you could have gone further.  Why not have a path selection at like... 10 or 15... and then wildly different sets depending on path.  Like a war ninja... "eh, screw these scrolls.... but those extra sheaths that thief has are dope!  He should get bigger ones for spears or swords though..." Lose scrolls gain true doublesheath in addition to the autothrows.  Magic(although I don't like the idea of a ninja using magic a la an invoker.  It would be cool if they had like little devices, a caltraps bomb (essentially makes caltraps AOE and cause a bleed or something), little incindiary pouches) Ninja "The point on this spear is meaningless compared to my insert ninja spell here.  In fact it just gets in the way of me defending myself while I channel my power. I should use the spear point for "materials" Lose spear gain caltraps bomb or something.  Death ninja "I find you and you die.  There is plenty of time for rest when you are over."  Lose acupuncture gain ambush tactics (IDK... maybe guarantees all attacks and a double round for murder openers?)   The point is that I could see like ninja having core skills that all the paths get, but each path at certain ranks has the option to swap a core skill or maybe even a lesser path skill for a path skill.  It would create customization, replayability, and it would really lead to pretty diverse strats if the path skills were competitive with each other.  The above was in no way thought out for balance or RP... just to fit my little quotes for each one and give an idea of what I meant.

Maybe even like 2-3 options at each of the levels eg. Level 25 : Patient was the Cobra (movegain penalty, poison ticks for grazes), Tunnel Vision (better chance to mal primary target/penalty defending against secondary targets like a rangers pets), Pitiless Clipper (the ambush tactics for acupuncture trade from above)

Not to be a brat, but does no one think my post was worth responding to? I'd like to know some thoughts.

I like the idea, but it is kind of incomplete.  They don't have any active combat abilities from what I see unless they are keeping dirt, throw etc...  Beyond that, Duelist implies honorable to me.  Poisoning your blade is pretty much lore canon for the duelist champ that is no real champ because they cheat.  A la Fiora's father from League and for some reason I am recalling a title on PSO that used basically the EXACT same device that league did (daughter idolizes swordfighter dad who is cheating with poison and gets exposed as dishonorable).  I would have less cognitive dissonance if we could call them assassins instead of duelists.

I could see them having abilities based on the off hand they have... Maybe give them a couple to pick between.  Even if one was cleanly an offensive and one a clearly defensive pick.  Give them the skill to create or swap the two, put them on a timer like beads and we are talking.  Even perhaps an offhand skill that varies based on which of the two items you have.  example Flourish: Utilizing their preternatural reflexes, a talented Duelist can utilize his free hand to lessen the damage he receives from his adversary (defensive offhand, kyousanken damage reducing effect) or meet reckless aggression with counter attacks (Counter attack on a missed bash/bodyslam/etc).  Like the way a blademaster outplays you in advance with stance selection and prediction/spellkill, I could see a duelist being the opposite.  They don't have a ton of switches to flip in advance.  You don't dig the trenches and place your machine gun nests, get air support, etc.  You fight and then in tiny windows you capitalize on something.  Like maybe their 50 ability allows them to select a defense to get bonus prof and a chance to proc a "counter attack window".  Maybe 1 in 8 dodges makes your opponent stumble off balance from their effort.  Before the next round, you could enter a command to activate... idk... Soul Diver: Noticing a slight stumble from a missed blow, the duelist leaps up and attempts to drive their weapon down through the neck/clavicle area of the unfortunate opponent.  You'd have no access to Soul Diver unless in the previous round of melee you got an offbalance dodge message and the window shuts once the next melee round starts.. A stab to the neck/shoulder could do all sorts of rude things... bleeds/disarms/weaken/etc to the discretion  Parry could deflect their weapon out of the way allowing a chance to attack as well.... Maybe 1 in 8 parries clears their guard for... Rising Tempest: Having used precise balance and accuracy to deflect the guard of the opponent downward, the Duelist then drives their weapon upward aiming for the throat of the soon to be skewered and finishing with a stylish twist (the twist needs to do nothing other than satisfying my naming style).  I mean... obviously it would hurt.  You might bleed.  I could even see getting silenced with a sword through the underside of your jaw up into the mouth.  It is hard to make a light melee class that uses weapons that isn't a blademaster with different sprinkles so I think you have to try to give them a different mechanic to be strong at.  And I can't think of MANY classes that revolve around situational high burst.  Like... I'm looking for the effective melee variety of powerword kill.  This won't instantly kill you, but won't have the same ramp up.  I can't just do it whenever... but dude when I can.  It is friggin awesome.

I like the idea, but it is kind of incomplete.  They don't have any active combat abilities from what I see unless they are keeping dirt, throw etc...  Beyond that, Duelist implies honorable to me.  Poisoning your blade is pretty much lore canon for the duelist champ that is no real champ because they cheat.  A la Fiora's father from League and for some reason I am recalling a title on PSO that used basically the EXACT same device that league did (daughter idolizes swordfighter dad who is cheating with poison and gets exposed as dishonorable).  I would have less cognitive dissonance if we could call them assassins instead of duelists.

I don't see a Duelist as inherently honorable but no matter, as I only said that to convey style. I called them assassins in every other reference.

Yes, I said they would keep all of their skills except the ones I mentioned. I want to recycle and reuse a lot of the abilities that already exist, as this isn't a new class. Just a fresh take on an old one.

My original post was detailing the "base" of the class. I didn't mention any selectable paths and that's where I think your ideas would be pretty cool.

My thoughts is that they are as melee capable as a ranger and much more than any other rogue (especially bard).

Though after a full study they are monsters. Which would make them weak to fighting multiple opponents at once.

Not to be a brat, but does no one think my post was worth responding to? I'd like to know some thoughts.

I don't like it because it does not addresses ninjas but some other class named duelists which in my view are already mostly covered by blademasters/warriors.

I think Ninjas have a place in FL. As a roguish fighter. Perhaps their lore should be expanded. I agree with such an assessment. But the Ninjas theme is an integral part of FL.

Regarding the paths presented by Fool.Hardy,

Your magic path lacks a serious magic damage spell.

I say upgrade the mals from the area dust spells to actual single target spells.

Poison, Blind, perhaps plague. Add chill touch for extra STR debuff. Perhaps Weaken, which would be non stack-able with nerve thing.

Then add a moderate damage spell like, sharp metal. Or fireball.

Even better, a custom fire damage spell named "Fire Lotus".

Perhaps even add Enlarge, for better bash resist.

This would create a niche of a strangler who use mall spells to lower opponent STR to increase survival while they kill them.

It would be a pretty solid path. Would scare the shit out of meeles who ignore maledictive saves.

And it would be somewhat easy to counter with saves or poison.

Ninjas don't need any more buffs to assassinate. So camo is crazy. Idealy an assassination path should maintain or lower the active assassinate ninja choices/power. After all we are trying to fix their dependence on assassination.

War path:

They need another defense. I'm tempted to give them two. Dual parry and perhaps two handed.

The question is should they have brawl? Do we want a ninja with a two handed spear or staff, having up to 6 attacks per round on 2handed damage multiplier? Does a brawler has any reason to ever dual wield, since they would lower their damage output and defense?

So, perhaps not give them brawl. But keep pugilism.

But... give them double sheath and shadow strike.

And force them to chose between Blind fighting and Balance.

PS: I perhaps would also suggest a fourth path. A spiritual path.

With:

Flesh armor.

Arrow shield.

Cure serious.

Detect magic.

Cure poison.

Word of recall.

Improved damage from their izukaziki spell. (What ever it's called.)

Balance.

Wands. (They already got scrolls and Staves)

I'll say it again, I said duelist to convey a type and feel of combat. Blademasters and Warriors are the furthest possible from Duelist one could get. A duelist is a rogue that can hold his own against the melee types utilizing dexterity and wits.

Any idea that gives ninjas more spells, or any spells at all will make me sad. They are not casters. They have only a couple spells and frankly, I don't even like that they have those. Give them tons of spells and they essentially become non-alignment restricted DKs without the stuff that makes them strong.

Make them feel like they are using their abilities. A thief has that feel and is honestly a huge powerhouse.

We disagree on the ninja name, Mya. I don't think it has ever fit the FL theme and find assassin a much better choice. I think the only reason they don't have that name is

    1) Carrion Fields calls them assassins

    2) They don't want it the class abbreviation to be Ass  -- Let's do Asn instead.

Nice.

Ninjas are fine atm. Assassinate is very easy to counter and is working exactly as it should work. Just never buff their melee skills like giving  them dual parry and so on because ninjas are the strongest melee class in the proper hands with shadow arts. Grapple is better than bash and bodyslam, it is very useful against other melee classes , I wont mention why. The skills that needs to be changed are only death kiss and lotus scourge, they are so useless.

P.S I love how f0xx is giving advices on ninjas change but he never played one. 

because ninjas are the strongest melee class in the proper hands with shadow arts. Grapple is better than bash and bodyslam, it is very useful against other melee classes ,

??? Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

Yeah.. I disagree with "ninjas are the strongest melee class in the proper hands with shadow arts" statement pretty heavily..

You put a lot of work into the this idea thread - always good to see! I'll respond to each part:  

Another -- Ninjas should be more melee capable than they currently are. At the moment if you want a melee rogue, Thief is the strongest choice (by far). Shadow strike is supposed to make ninjas far more melee capable. I can tell you, in it's current state -- it fails in that regard.

Agreed 100%. Shadowstrike alone does not make ninja melee-capable and thieves are significantly more powerful in normal PK.

Duelist. Everyone right now thinking about ninjas. Stop. Think "duelist" type of abilities. A rogue-like combatant that must use a combination of skill, strength, and dexterity to weave in and around the battle. I'm thinking the same amount or zero spells. Not another Blademaster type class.

I half agree here. Rogues are defined by high output, medium defense, with many utility skills. Nobody wants another blademaster class, but blademasters (samurai), being 'skill'ful melee (I mean skill as number of active skills), can offer something to the 'skill'ful rogue class...namely, their dependency on skills (as opposed to passive things such as weapon selection, high hp, etc.). I'm also not a big fan of 'ninja magic'--I'd personally rather have skills that mimic spells for the most part--I agree with same or less spells. I don't agree with duelist. Ninja lore is against that...duelist implies they will win on equal condition one vs one fights...seems more like blademasters or even warriors to me. Ninja implies some kind of cunning, dishonorable approach.

They wield only one weapon at a time. No dual wielding. One hand is empty, no shields. They need this free hand in order to properly balance themselves in combat and execute their abilities with the required finesse.

A single, one-handed weapon. While I can see the image of a ninja using a single sword clearly, I also see them using chain weapons and staves just as clearly. This sounds like a path focus to me. We'll see where you are going with this...  

Like monks, these assassins cannot wear heavy equipment -- speed is their savior and heavy equipment results in encumbrance and reduced abilities in combat. Some have been known to hold little charms in their offhand. Some a string of beads, others wrap the offhand with a flowing red silk which streams around while they move - distracting their enemies.

Light equipment, fair enough, if provided compensation in skills. Cloak defense sounds like a swashbuckler-ish skill. I'm starting to think Renaissance Romeo rather than Japanese assassin thus far when combined with the duelist theme. Still sounding like a blademaster so far.

Study: These assassins, much like the ninjas before them, study the movements and habits of their foes before engaging in combat. The culmination of these efforts leads the assassin to hit much more frequently and become able to avoid attacks with much higher frequency. (I'm thinking full study results in 50% more hitting and 70% less being hit by melee. -- Equipment is still necessary NO hardcoded crap like current shadow arts.)

I'm against this actually. Studying somebody's combat techniques sounds like what a warrior or blademaster would do. This also implies you have to watch them fight. If I wanted to use this idea, I'd make it so study is an active skill that would function a lot like a certain warmaster skill that autotriggers. No sure what you mean by hardcoded...if you mean internal damage (no damage reduction), sure, why not. I can see ninja skills penetrating protections, and I can understand them not penetrating. It just tweaking the same number up or down.

Skills: The exact same skills ninjas currently have.

EXCEPT:

*    selections*

*    assassinate*

*    grapple*

*    dual wield*

*    pugil*

*    fired weapons*

*    detect hidden*

 

ADD:

*    doublesheath*

*    brawl*

*    balance*

*    sense movement*

*    blind fighting*

*    counter*

*    shadow arts (In it's current state, at least allow more than one per combat round)*

*    blood vow (or something to give a hitroll boost -- Ya know, since they get encumbered)*

*    quiet movement*

 

*    Unique: Envenom can be used on bladed weapons (sword, dagger)*

*    Unique: When wielding 1 weapon and offhand free (except for special trinket or whatever) they will almost always execute all possible attacks. (3 attacks, 4 in city terrain) If offhand is not free or they are encumbered. They LOSE: Balance. Blind fighting. Shadow arts. Counter. All other skills reduce by 20.*

This is the meat of Mudder's selection. The skill suggestions are by far the most important part of any idea. I understand the loss of pugil, dual wield, etc because of your focus on single one-handed weapons. Why lose detect hidden and grapple?

I disagree with how you try to make them use the one-handed weapons. If they don't have dual wield, they have no reason to use a second weapon anyways. No need for blanket skill reductions.

I like envenom on bladed weapons. Good thinking.

Blood vow...didn't you say something about stop thinking like blademasters?

Other added skills seem to fit ninja mold.

Looking at the idea as a whole, I see it as a massive tone-down of ninja. Losing powerful utility skills such as detect hidden means you are falling into the melee category more than rogue. What roguish thing can this ninja do? Where is the scary burst damage and opponent skill negation abilities?

It is fine to cut out skills you don't think fit and try to gear theme towards a theme. In this case, I think you are cutting the ninja out of ninja and just throwing in some light monk and blademaster instead. You are missing the critical core skills that make a ninja a ninja---the class defining abilities. These are the skills that make the class pk-viable as well. Add some more skills and keep in mind you need to more than compensate for every skill you take away. Assassinate is a big skill to compensate for, but fired weapons and others (detect hidden!!) are very important as well.

I look at the skill list and I think...no, I don't want to play this class as presented. I should be a blademaster or warrior and be much more powerful.

I don't think I'll be going for the 'duelist' theme for a ninja, but that is a personal thing. Sounds like a blademaster/warrior path to me.

I'm paying for my choice of words 10x. When I said duelist, it was to give a mindset. I actually propose the name be changed from ninja to assassin.

You made other valid points that I will respond to later.