Cabal Standards

I propose we let non-caballed characters and non-warring caballed have the ability to take the standard of a cabal and allow them to destroy it. This will kill the strong guard and knock it down to a cabal guard and the cabal will lose their cabal powers for say.. 24 hours before a new item can be reforged and replaced.

The reason is simple. If I am uncaballed or not at war and I attack another cabal, there is no reason for defending it. The guardian will just respawn w/ the standard and all is good. It'll be a weaker guardian for so many ticks, then be a strong one again. Big whoop.

RP says caballed players should defend, but how many REALLY do? I know I have seen people refuse to defend and I am guilty of not defending my own at some time or another, I am sure.

I dunno if this affects anything I am not considering but I am all for this idea. It makes being uncaballed easier to find action and doesn't seen to imbalance much. There should be consequences for ignoring ANYONE attacking your cabal. Also makes a great reason to use mercenaries for a quick ally as opposed to Syndicates who usually don't help certain cabals. (Knight/Trib)

To piggyback off Twinblades thought of mercenaries, it would also give clan members the opportunity to "even" the sides. If its 2-3 vs 1 then a clan member can take a standard or fight back a little bit better than trying to chase around someone who isn't fighting the outnumbered ally.

I also know some people don't have the time or desire to get into a cabal. To play devil's advocate to my own input, the only problem I could foresee is uncaballed characters having more power to harass cabal characters that are actually attending their duties.

The power that comes with cabals also has that responsibility to defend them so I'm still for giving the little guy a little more say.

having played several characters not in a cabal at 50, I know all too well what it is like to have them try and steam roll me when they're lacking opponents from their vendetta cabal. I've always wanted to be able to take their standard so they couldn't use their 'oh so useful' cabal powers against me. 

I think the biggest issue with allowing non-cabal characters to mess with standards is the use of clan members. cabals that are already 'power houses' would be bolstered even more by being able to use clan members. [of course, it could be made a rule that clan members are to focus on the tasks the clan issues them -clan quests- and not directly involve themselves with cabal warfare without permission from the patron Imm (because the Imm wants them to prove themselves in some capacity or it's an underdog cabal)]

I don't think it's much of an issue having characters not in a cabal harassing characters that are. (I find it more of the reverse - personally) those that do either live to regret it or are paragons in that particular cycle, no doubt an elite/vet player. 

so, for me, I like the notion of a non-cabal being able to temporarily dispose of a cabal standard. that could be a tool used to level the playing field between caballed & uncaballed. at the risk of making an enemy of an organization... which is usually what happens when you have a 'beef' with a member anyway. 

(to avoid a caballed character paying a non cabal to destroy the standard of his enemy so that he could have better odds against them, we could make it where it is in the best interest of a cabal member to have opponents with standards so they can claim cps - which could mean that killing a caballed member without a standard would yield little to no cp's... where as if they have one, (it having been retrieved or not) would yield more/max)

Because of reasons The Professor has already brought up, I would not be entirely for having the cabal powers stripped from the cabal for 24 in game hours. I would utterly hate facing off against (insert tough guy name here) of an enemy cabal just to have a clan member of that cabal or some spoony bard come in and clean me out of my cabal powers.

However, I have seen more than my fair share of people who do NOT defend their cabal when someone is attacking that they are not vendetta'd against. I recall many times with many of my Tribunals, where I would attack Nexus/Syndicate/Savant/Warmaster cabals because one of them were wanted, and it had no results.

I would instead suggest that there should be a significant CP penalty if your cabal guard is killed by a non vendetta'd person within your PK range. Say, 100CPS.

This is an extremely bad idea in my opinion.

Morality:

Cabal standards are not ringing bells to provide players with a quick PK.

-If one wants to PK a cabaled character you should track him down, and engage. Not ring a bell and have him served to you.

Which is why cabaled characters don't need to defend against uncabaled people. That is the function of the guard.

A cabaled character should not be forced to have to PK an uncabaled character, when the uncabaled PC can never be forced to PK.

If you wish to remove the standard, get in a cabal so that he can do the same to you. Even the CP idea is bad.

Praticality:

This will lead to uncabaled people removing the standard of cabaled people while they are fighting a cabaled player.

This will lead to throwaway characters that do a 1 man war on certain characters and that can screw the cabaled character heavily while never being screwed back.

Is this about the Syndicate wanting to force certain cabaled PC's to fight so that they can collect?

I'm not that player, but he has every right to protect himself as he does. The syndicate has many powers to aid them with finding their targets, they don't need a summon bell. Just because he has a bounty does not means that he should be forced to fight you. If he prefers to hide in the dark corners of desolation when there are no enemies, it's his right. And the syndicate labor to get there and fight in a ground he did not chose.

Morality:

Cabal standards are not ringing bells to provide players with a quick PK.

-If one wants to PK a cabaled character you should track him down, and engage. Not ring a bell and have him served to you.

This.  It's not very difficult to talk/RP your way into a fight with most PCs.  And there's always the challenge system.

This is an extremely bad idea in my opinion.

 

Morality:

Cabal standards are not ringing bells to provide players with a quick PK.

-If one wants to PK a cabaled character you should track him down, and engage. Not ring a bell and have him served to you.

Which is why cabaled characters don't need to defend against uncabaled people. That is the function of the guard.

A cabaled character should not be forced to have to PK an uncabaled character, when the uncabaled PC can never be forced to PK.

If you wish to remove the standard, get in a cabal so that he can do the same to you. Even the CP idea is bad.

 

Praticality:

This will lead to uncabaled people removing the standard of cabaled people while they are fighting a cabaled player.

This will lead to throwaway characters that do a 1 man war on certain characters and that can screw the cabaled character heavily while never being screwed back.

 

Is this about the Syndicate wanting to force certain cabaled PC's to fight so that they can collect?

I'm not that player, but he has every right to protect himself as he does. The syndicate has many powers to aid them with finding their targets, they don't need a summon bell. Just because he has a bounty does not means that he should be forced to fight you. If he prefers to hide in the dark corners of desolation when there are no enemies, it's his right. And the syndicate labor to get there and fight in a ground he did not chose.

Agreed.  Completely.

Why not just add a CTF to the clans? If the clan holds its mini standard the cabal gets 1 EXTRA CP per hour, clan chars can earn clan points for retrieving and holding.

This gets them 'into the swing' and contributing to the cabal.

I hate the 'ill knock and you have to answer', its just plain lazy. If you attack take the standard 'otherwise 'the guard is doing fine', if you do happen to take the standard people

WILL come to get it.

UC

Mya pretty much nailed it.

Has nothing to do with Syndicate and I don't think Syndicate needs any help in finding their targets, not sure who that "certain" character is you're referring to. It was just an idea I had and figured I would pitch it and get opinions. That's all.

So wait...everyone here is ok with someone who is not in a vendetta cabal, attacking their cabal and not defending? I have always heard, if ANYONE attacks your cabal, it is your 'duty' as a cabal member to defend it. Has that changed over the years as we have become more bigger pansies?

Be sure I'll still kick anyone who constantly does not defend if I catch it. Hard.

Difference here: if they are not in a vendetta, you do not have to "anser the door" immediately. E.g. if you are in Gear etc. I still expect you to do something about it as soon as you can however.

If it is a vendettaed knocker, you will have to do something about it immediately. Exception: you may take the time to get a basic set of eq and consumables. You'll still be required to try to retrieve at least once even in those basics however.

I like this idea:

I would instead suggest that there should be a significant CP penalty if your cabal guard is killed by a non vendetta'd person within your PK range. Say, 100CPS.

Though I'd say more something like 20 to 50.

I'm not fine with anyone attacking my cabal guard.  I will however, at least send a tell to figure out what happened if they're anything other than a vendetta'd cabal member.  Sometimes, it's just someone exploring taking a wrong turn.  Most times, it's someone looking for a fight, so I'll see about arranging one somewhere else.

If it's a vendetta'd cabal member, expect an appearance.  If I'm too late getting to my cabal I'll meet you at yours, or in between.

The cp loss isn't a bad idea, though.

The only thing I like about this is the potential for cabal'd characters to destroy any other's standard.  This helps cabals who have to fight others but don't necessarily have vendettas like Watcher, Syndicate and Tribunal.  And vice versa...if I'm bountied / Wanted, I could potentially destroy those cabal standards and tip the odds in my favor.

Realistically though, players will just wait out the 24-hour period til the guard returns before fighting.

... don't necessarily have vendettas like Watcher, Syndicate and Tribunal.

Last I checked, the only cabals without hardcoded vendettas were Syndicate and and Herald and that Watcher and Tribunal were hardcoded against each other, or am I mistaken?

@ The Forsaken:

I am not OK with my cabal members ignoring someone who is flagrantly attacking the cabal, and if they are able to I expect them to get in there and drive that person off. It's a matter of RP, and if you're OK with someone beating the crap out of your guardian and squatting on your sacred territory, you probably shouldn't be in that cabal.

However, I am also not really impressed with people who think they can walk into a cabal guard, flee immediately, then start hurling the C-Bomb (coward!) at the cabal member if they don't immediately present themselves. Especially rogue classes who can poke at the guard, then hide nearby and wait to make a nuisance of themselves (I'm not saying you do this).

When a caballed character attacks the guardian of another cabal, they take various risks. They expose their own cabal to attack, they expose their fellow members to hostility, they can be forced to fight/retrieve against the odds, they risk a possible vendetta being declared and they are weakened during/after the time they hold the standard.

An uncaballed person does not bear these same risks. It's a bit of an "I can ring your bell, but you can't ring mine" situation.

The uncaballed person has the risks of being a target by that ENTIRE cabal. They don't have any cabal powers to deal with the cabal powers they are going to fight. They are at risk. They are at BIGGER risk, in my opinion.