Kelmi Feral Thief vs Yaliza Drow Invoker

Well I thought all around it was a great fight, he was kicking my butt the first round and he got excited, keep in mind I had to lure him out and was fighting his titan, and him for 2 rounds and furried.  I then ran like I have learned to do, and healed as quickly as possible.  I am not going to say that all feral are OP, because I have fought a few now and beat most of them.  His particular skill set is perfect for his race class.  I was very happy to win and now know it can be done against this particular foe.  I have also nearly killed him a few times, so I can say that things are evening out.

I think Ferals are right in line where they need to be and can be beat.  He is a good player, I am a decent player and we will have more battles to come to continue this debate.

Yaliza

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The thing with ferals is they are the only class that has such an easily accessible vuln and such a low health pool. If you look at fire giants, ogres, dwarves (races with similar vulns) we are talking about HP pools somewhere around 1500-1600. A well built melee feral will have around 1000-1100 hp. That's 50% smaller HP pool. So they absolutely need tools to compensate for the small HP pool and huge vuln. And they have such. Against some combos, those tools will be great, against others, they won't make a difference. Such is the way balance works in this game.

You say fury sways balance.... well your fire spells hit them harder to begin with AND they have a smaller HP pool than normal. So those 30-40% casts lost are compensated for. And as many mentioned, if he is fury'ing you, then be glad, because he is not kicking dirt, flee-murdering, pilfering, executing forms or a plethora of different things he can do to directly increase his damage output.

If you use the above log as example (as Cel did), and the thief uses fury instead of forms, he loses a LACERATE and a MASSACRE which is ~100hp which gains him one more round in combat and 2 more casts. And for fury to be effective, you need to stack it more than once.

53 minutes ago, f0xx said:

If you look at fire giants, ogres, dwarves (races with similar vulns) we are talking about HP pools somewhere around 1500-1600. A well built melee feral will have around 1000-1100 hp. That's 50% smaller HP pool.

1500-1600hp? Come on man, if you want me to listen to your argument you gotta do better than making your calculation on a number like that. If any of those races could be a thief, they wouldn't get close to that amount of hp. The last time I checked the code, class had a big part in how much hp you got per level.

55 minutes ago, f0xx said:

You say fury sways balance.... well your fire spells hit them harder to begin with AND they have a smaller HP pool than normal. So those 30-40% casts lost are compensated for.

The fact that the invoker chose to not use fire spells should say something as well, its like if the correct tactic against an ogre was to use mundane weapons due to some mechanic, maybe this speaks more about the availability of saves than anything else though.

If fury is there to balance their vuln to fire, why does it effect things other than fire spells? Get rid of fury and give them a blood haze that only works with fire damage and I'd wager you'd see much less frustrations.

I give up.

To be honest, I never would have believed someone could say Ferals are OP.

I have read logs from Kemli, and Kortag, and while I suck at PK, I often see the wrong weapon in the hands of the ferals enemy.

Why use lightning instead if fire? Because its effective against high dex, decked opponents, not to mention damages twice.

Is two sources of pain better than one at increased damage? Debatable.

Truth is, one of the great ferals in game right now is built to do war with mages, the other is wearing the vulnerability cover.

I have qualms about the item itself. Havent held it to identify, but I hope its not indestructible, and have been watching logs for Ice Storm or Hell Stream.

Either its been tried and will not work, or its indestructible which may need reconsidered.

As for Feral Warmasters, I have always felt Warmaster to be the most synergetic cabal for the Feral race. So be a boy scout and be prepared.

Prepared to win, or prepared to run.

"The beatings will continue until morale improves." Kemli is just as powerful at RP as he is at PK, as is Kortag.

Its wrong to look at these two characters and say this is OP. Without the players behind those characters the wins/losses would be different.

Fact is they are just damn well played, and complaining about them discredits their accomplishments. I won't take part in it.

I will say this, 1500 health on a thief may or may not be possible.

Again, high numbers.

I think that AC or saves would be insufficient for most battles if your wearing all HP boosters.

But then, what would I know, its not like my faerie has 1000hp. Or does he?

Just my opinion. Fire, Ogre, Dwarf shouldn't be compared to classes that ferals can't be. In this case thief or ninja. Therefore I think we should only compare human, half-elf, half-drow, drow, elf, and ferals. I've been on both sides of the equation. In the majority of situations I'm always much stronger as the feral. Especially with that cloak, making there be nearly no reason to be choose anything else. Even with the fire vuln many classes can't easily access it effectively (Invokers, Fires, Druids, Paladins being exceptions, 2 of these classes aren't very good at killing anyway). As a feral I've found my battles against those 4 suck lol, however if I were one of the other races I'd have even less chance to defeat them due to the lower offense alone, not to mention lack of fury. In addition some of the fire weapons are decent but I'd like to see some fire weapons changed a bit to make them more useful at 50, one flail, whip, axe made at the pit would be interesting.  I feel that many of the fire weapons are disarmable, too heavy to be dual wielded, too low avg dmg or weapons those classes already know. As the feral I know this and like to turn what they think is an advantage into a disadvantage. In my experience I really only have to get 40 hit/dam and cast a fury and its nearly an instant win button vs even the most experienced mages due to its long duration.

This log doesn't really show much imho @Celerity The only thing I got out of it, is that this particular thief/ninja admittedly didn't approach this battle as usual, and can pretty much do anything he wants due to his high melee potential and still nearly win.

If the peak of these 2 feral combos are meant to be at this level I'm fine with that. But if so I would like to see the other rogue races get some slight racial buffs when playing as these classes. Similar to how drow/elf got buffs when going blademaster.

Again these experiences are just from my own point of view.

4 hours ago, tassinvegeta said:

Just my opinion. Fire, Ogre, Dwarf shouldn't be compared to classes that ferals can't be

Noone's doing that.

Compare feral ranger to ogre ranger. Feral cleric to dwarf/fire cleric. Slith thief to feral thief. You will get a general idea about how different the HP pools are.

4 hours ago, tassinvegeta said:

In this case thief or ninja. In the majority of situations I'm always much stronger as the feral.

Dunno mate. You've played quite a few successful ninjas, but Donovan was your strongest. And he was by far stronger than Cenlar.

7 hours ago, Fool_Hardy said:

"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

Thanks for this. Truly :D Eyyyyyy lmao. I laughed my ass off for constant half a hour for this. I'm so shitfaced and full of surprices and to see someone sees my shit RP makes me feel warmth insides. Thank you.

I'll try to contribute more for the game the coming month

-The Champion of the Ratmen

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