Double-sheath => auto-throw , which would be to powerful. It empowers them vs things they can already deal well with and does little vs things that bash-mauls them to death.
Bards to improve or not to improve
Removing instruments altogether, I still contend, is a terrible idea. So is giving them autothrow or doublesheath. Their throws already hurt more than other throws.
Don't remove instruments. Make them use the ranged slot. That will fix all of the current problems with how instruments interfere with the core defensiveness of the class, and not give them potentially 8 attacks, ranged combat, AND songs.
Double-sheath => auto-throw , which would be to powerful. It empowers them vs things they can already deal well with Like what?
Mages who can can't lag them and prevent them from flee murdering, or using throw atm.
Bashers who will lag them preventing them from already using throw.
Because flee + murder and throw are such deadly tactics ;p
tbh throw at the moment seems to be more effective than trying any other abilities the bard has with a handful of exceptions where you might hope to break a mages jaw or sing an undead to sleep.
being able to escape melee encounters before being steamrolled would be nice.
that said, If bards have been broken for over 10 years... I really can't see them being fixed now.
(putting my hand up if an imm wants to send me the bard code so I can submit a revision to speed things along)
Bards are the class that everyone knows suck and openly admits to it, BUT we get other changes to classes that are PK viable. I'm not whining about changes because changes are always nice. I'd just like to see a class no one really plays BECAUSE THEY SUCK, get revamped and fixed.
Well Bards were actually one of the classes that were first revamped into the new shiny model you see today.
They were viable with certain Cabal, Race class choices - Helmsey was an example and he was powerful before he hit E - L in Knight.
However I have never been tempted to play a bard because they suck. (hahah!)
I think they would benefit most from a refurb - everything else has the 'potential' on a grand scape to be competitive.
This might be a terrible idea, but what if the Bard class was combined with Thief class and some of the bard skill/spells that make the class unique became a path that you have to choose as you advance down the thief line.
Example level 1 you can learn/select
Bard, Thug, Burglar (Just threw that in for the hell of it.)
if you pick bard you gain access to instruments, songs, bard titles and keep some but not all of the skills of a thief.
Also what is everybody thoughts on making instruments or playing cards into a weapon type like spear or dagger?
Combining the two classes might not be a terrible idea, but I think it takes a class away and kinda does what was first done with bards. Bards had some songs removed and was basically given skills/spells from other classes and called good. They lost a LOT of originality when this was done and it really didn't help them that much in PK as they don't have the skills that make the skills they did get any good.
What I would like to see happen is something similar to clerics. Bards have a basis of skills, spells, and songs and depending on your alignment you receive certain songs. Things like the ability to inflict/cure maledictions based on songs or the way a main damage song hits, much like to Path of Deceit vs Ray of Truth.. Its almost endless as you can be as creative as you want WITH the songs and what not.
For example:
DIRGE OF THE DESICCATED Syntax: sing 'Dirge of the Desiccated' Not always are the songs of the bard jovial and full of mirth. Those that are devote to the Gods of Darkness and ways of evil are taught a song that is capable of calling forth the long dead and deceased to cause illness to their target with a sickly embrace.
Affect: A random malediction for 3-4 hours.
MELLIFLUOUS MELODY Syntax: sing 'Mellifluous Melody' A calm and soothing voice often has remarkable affects on the ill and diseased. Uplifting and inspirational, these songs are capable of giving the sick the will to go on and survive ailments.
***Affect: Removes a random malediction from the list. ***
I think someone mentioned the idea of turning the voice into a weapon itself. I don't remember who said it, maybe the Professor, but I wrote up a mock helpfile for it in my words because I couldn't find it.
STRIDENT SHRIEK Syntax: sing ' Strident Shriek' The skilled singers and bards of their guild are capable of manipulating their voice to such extremes that it becomes agonizing to listen to. Shattering the threshold of pain and reaching intense decibels, the bard causes physical pain to the target of this wail.
Affect: Causing intense damage to the target of the skill. Potential of causing silence for a 0 tick as eardrums are ruptured.
I wrote it as a song to allow the possibility of applying saves to it. Similar to ray of truth or path of deceit. It would work just as well as a skill, but I don't think you can save skills. I suppose instead of save you could be a fail rate to it and that would work just as well.
The above are just examples of how this class can be redone and the possibilities it really has. A song, much like a spell, can do literally anything you want it to.
Edited
Just to say that random stuff you have no control over is bad design.
Take "Mystery of the Unicorns". You get a spell that is only useful 33% of the times. You can't even dress your saves with it in mind because it could roll the wrong one.
But idea about alignment related songs is excellent.
I don't like the idea of instruments as songs. The idea of moving them to the floater/Bow slot was better.
I like the idea of instruments and cards as weapons and being things you can wield.
An instrument should be able to parry and weapon block effectively if wielded, but is easily disarmed and has no base attack. (instruments fill two handed slot, give instruments sockets)
On the other hand, a deck of cards has no defensive capabilities, but can deal brutal damage. (holding a deck enables autothrow, can be thrown normally if not held)
bards also need a song that grant sanctuary or protection from being lagged out. (muahaha make shield of words grant both)
They should be similar to clerics yes, but a ton simpler and more of a jack of all trades
The skills bards have at present are a collection of average skills from other classes without any really standing out. I'd like to see a bit of a shuffle and making bards a lot harder to kill. A revamped shield of words and a skill like vanish would go a long way.
I am not a fan of making instruments as weapons. I think it should either be a specific slot FOR a bard's instrument that is required to sing a song or not there at all. Having an instrument weapon adds more problems to the solution in that the Staff would need to create instruments and place them in the game or alter the already existing instruments.
More work = less chance of change.
Though, it would be unique to have certain types of instruments affect certain songs. IE: Battle Song is more affected by a percussive instrument like a war-drum. But, I would only suggest this if there was a slot created for bards to carry an instrument with out it interfering with their weapons or have it take the slot of fired weapons and give it an attack every 2 rounds. That way, it solves the problem of the instrument, the loss of damage from fired weapons, AND adds some uniqueness in that it affects certain songs.
That's easy to do. Just have the instrument increase prof in a song.
Then the song code gives a special bonus to 100%+ prof.
Let's see if we can get some consensus on the below.
Hopefully everything I have listed here is fairly easy to implement and would quickly make bards a lot more viable.
Songs to remove:
Serenade <- better left for freeverse, ill keep the practices.
Marriage Song <- better left for freeverse, ill keep the practices.
Let it be Known <- Might just be broken, but does nothing compared to haggle. Not needed.
Songs to Improve:
Herald of the Sky - replace with Minstrel's Rally mentioned earlier in the thread.
Shield of Words - currently -20 AC. Beef this up a lot by adding sanc and/or protection from bashers.
Flight of the Condor - the condor takes you one room then you have to call it again. It should stick around for a while.
Lullaby - make this offensive at a single target.
Mystery of the Unicorns - rename this 'Protection of the Unicorns' and make it always have the same affect.
Other:
Move instruments to back slot or floating slot.
Remove 'Ranged combat' from skills.
Remove 'Knockout' from skills.
Add 'Vanish' to skills.
Make songs learn like spells.
Change the 'You strike your melody on' text to use the correct slot (which was needed anyway, but will be updated to reflect the new slot)
emote takes a seat and waits for everything mentioned to be shot down.
Of all your ideas, Bolgrum, this is the only one that makes sense:
Make songs learn like spells.
Songs to remove:
Serenade <- better left for freeverse, ill keep the practices. Leave, I'm not good at freeverse.
Marriage Song <- better left for freeverse, ill keep the practices. Leave, I'm not good at freeverse.
Let it be Known <- Might just be broken, but does nothing compared to haggle. Not needed. Was broken when I tested. You lose money compared with just haggle.
Songs to Improve:
Herald of the Sky - replace with Minstrel's Rally mentioned earlier in the thread. Herald and Lullaby have their use.
Shield of Words - currently -20 AC. Beef this up a lot by adding sanc and/or protection from bashers. Bards don't need sanctuary they have wands.
Flight of the Condor - the condor takes you one room then you have to call it again. It should stick around for a while. I still have zero idea what this song is supposed to aid with.
Lullaby - make this offensive at a single target. No, make Serenade force people to follow you, then you sing Lullaby.
Mystery of the Unicorns - rename this 'Protection of the Unicorns' and make it always have the same affect. Yes. Base the effect on room type.
Other:
Move instruments to back slot or floating slot. Good idea.
Remove 'Ranged combat' from skills. What? Bad idea.
Remove 'Knockout' from skills. Why? It has it's uses.
Add 'Vanish' to skills. I don't see the need. Perhaps add it to the Vanishing lute...
Make songs learn like spells. Yes.
Change the 'You strike your melody on' text to use the correct slot (which was needed anyway, but will be updated to reflect the new slot) Yes, although we will lose the hilarious effect of striking your sword for music.