Thief Paths

Thieves seem a bit lacking of late.  Maybe it is time for a change?  I've always enjoyed thieves, until I ended up at 50.  Then the steamroller comes out in many forms, including poison, people that can see you hidden, and those nasty ones you can't put to sleep.  What do I propose?

Change(s) for all thief paths:

Blackjack no longer size dependent(Maybe change it to being more dependent on opponent's AC against blunt, and thief's hitroll)

3 paths to go for thieves:

1.  Highwayman - A brutish fighting thief that relies on the element of surprise and advantages to help them in open combat, given the right situation

1.  Trap Master - A thief that relies extremely upon its traps and using them to gain the upper hand, to then find themselves finishing off their prey.

1.  Rogue - Seen to be a more traditional thief, but with abilities revolving around exploiting their sleeping enemies.

Skills Added/Taken away from each path:

1.  The Highwayman

Gains:  Thief Strategies (Like shadow arts, but strikes cause affects the thief can inflict with skills - poison from envenom, cutpurse, pilfer) 

Dual Parry

Enhanced backstab/dual backstab (better able to land on a non-sleeping foe, or one that has counter)

Losses:  Mechanisms

Magic Traps

1.  Trap Master

Gains:  Able to plant 3 traps (given there are enough exits in the room)

Increased amount of traps by 1 at each selection

New trap (spider-web) - which locks their victim in a web which lasts for the equivalent of 2 rounds of combat

Losses:  Auto throw on fleeing of enemies (traps are more meant for that for this path)

1.  Rogue

Gains:  Blindfold (Not a blindness, makes enemies unable to see only while they are blackjacked IF the thief applies it)

Exchange (Pry and Plant an item in one foul swoop)

Ability to plant counterfeited items

Losses:  Backstab/Dual Backstab can only occur when enemy is sleeping

Please give me any and all input.  Maybe together we can make thieves a more fun and viable class once again at lvl 50.  Some seem a bit more powerful than others to me, but maybe with all your input we can balance out each path and keep them balanced for the game as a whole as well.  Thanks for reading and any/all input.

I haven't played a thief in ages...maybe it's that time again. But regardless I think they already have a 'exchange' type skill with the pry/plant. I may be wrong though.

It's true that they have a sort of "exchange" with using pry and plant, but exchange would be meant to do both at the same time, hence making it faster for that kind of thief to exploit the blackjack more swiftly.

Yes, it's called swap iirc.

1. Thief's are fine ATM. They are a very powerful class, if played right.

1. Poison is not a problem, since one of your traps selections allows you to get rid of it. And thieves are supposed to fight from surprise not when your enemy is expecting you. Just look at Kaylia the drow ninja. That player was sneaky as hell.

1. I agree, people who can see hiden are a problem. But there isn't much we can do about it.

1. If you want a meele dedicated thief AKA Highwayman, join warmaster (Gladiator I think). You get an extra defense a lot better than dual parry and other nifty perks.

1. Lag as a thief is possible. One of the traps lags if i'm not mistaken. And you can join Watcher as a Slith for the neat little Web-thrash + autotrip combo. A thief in Warmaster Gladiator can also bash-lag.

1. Blindfold. I would love that we had an item that you wear on face that is called a blindfold and that grants blindness effect.

This was asked ages ago by some lazy monk to aid training blind fighting, but it's a very interesting item for thieves.

1. Exchange. You can already do this. There is no need to pry then plant. You can just plant and it will swap one item for the other, and as long as they are of similar weight it will almost never fail.

What Mya said.

And one more thing: "Thieves seem a bit lacking of late. Maybe it is time for a change?"

Thieves are not lacking at the moment because they need change, but because there are a lot of strong classes that are their hard counters right now. You can't expect many thieves around when there are 2 active crusaders and 2 active vampires around.

That being said, thieves are probably one of the best balanced classes out there, with some very unique concepts and interactions with cabals.

Not that I dislike your ideas, but in my opinion, they are actually a step down from the current thieves, because most of the pros of your ideas are already available, and the cons are quite significant - some traps already lag, you can already "exchange", you can already gain a third defense, much more reliable, fun and RP integrated than dual parry, you can already poison via combat, you can already backstab enemies that are awake.

On the other hand, there are some ideas that you (and Mya brought) that I very much like. The thief strategies concerning cutpurse (pilfer is too much imo). Perhaps, a mastered cutpurse can be executed automatically?

Also, the blindfold item would be very much appreciated, since some races can't practice blind fightning the normal way.

Now I'm gonna make a thief. Damn.

IMO, thieves could gain a skill (call it sidestep) that allows them to avoid 1 bash/bodyslam attempt while dealing circle damage.  The skill would work like predict except only on a single bash/bodyslam attempt, probably need a cooldown, and would then need to be reset.

syntax: sidestep

You become light on your feet.

Joe Giant attempts to bash you.

You easily step out the way and plant your dagger in Joe Giant's kidney

Your sidestep MANGLES Joe Giant

You are no longer light on your feet.

I like the ideas, cause it would be nice to play an ordinary class in three different ways. And I've always tried to make a thief that would surpass a warrior, hah.

I like the idea of sidestep, maybe add that to the highwayman path.  I find that some classes have just become stale the way they are made.  They lack that "longevity" quality that other classes have (and don't make me name those classes cause there are just too many of them).  Bards, Thieves, Ninjas are at the top of my list of classes that people tend to lose interest in, or lose PK ability with (due to pkers peacing out on you when you long on).  Bards I feel need the biggest changes, but maybe giving paths to each class and giving more variety like warriors and berserkers have gotten over the past years.

I find that some classes have just become stale the way they are made.  They lack that "longevity" quality that other classes have (and don't make me name those classes cause there are just too many of them).  Bards, Thieves, Ninjas are at the top of my list of classes that people tend to lose interest in, or lose PK ability with (due to pkers peacing out on you when you long on).  Bards I feel need the biggest changes, but maybe giving paths to each class and giving more variety like warriors and berserkers have gotten over the past years.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

This whole post of yours is only a subjective opinion, an opinion which I don't share. Giving paths to each class offers replayability, not longevity. Actually, if you think about it, paths actually make you stick less with a character, because you always wonder if that other path is not a better choice for your class.

You find some classes "become stale the way they are made"? What is that even supposed to mean? It is not the class itself that is supposed to keep you playing. It is your RP. If you have no RP to drive you, then no matter what class you are playing, will you always find yourself burning out after a while. 

There are classes that are well made, and classes that are not so well made. In the example you made, you placed a class that is very well made (Thieves) together with two classes that are not very well made (Bards and Ninjas). A well made class is one who is balanced, has a strong concept behind it, and follows this concept with skills and abilities unique to the class itself. Why were the old bards better than the new ones? Because they were more unique. Songs are the trade of bards, and that is the venue on which they should be developed. What happened though? They got a lot of songs removed from them, and got given skills that other classes already posses. Nothing unique, nothing new, which leaves the class "soulless". Same with ninjas, but throw in some very bad balancing as well (yes, assassinate) and you have an even bigger problem.

Thieves on the other hand are something completely different. They offer so many different strategies to be played, and that makes them one of the most interesting and fun classes out there, unlike what you claim them to be - stale and boring. Actually, if you find thieves boring to play, then I really don't know what other class could keep you entertained. If you ask me, the most boring classes to play are warriors and crusaders. Especially crusaders. But that is only my own, highly subjective opinion.

Personally I think ALL classes should have paths, and have wondered why they were only added to some classes. The replayability would be amazing.

As far as thiefs go, I havent played one in soo long, I actually am not sure I pinned one. so I cannot offer much to that.

I think some options for thieves are just not viable. Seeing that blackjack has a size dependency it really screws halfling and faerie thieves over. If they are already caught by most classes, they are finished anyway. Try blackjacking a fire giant with a halfling, even enlarged you still seem like you have a huge opening for failure. It has been a LONG time since I've seen a thief of either race.