Cleric Portal

I think portal should be limited in its placement. Any time a class has an effectual "get-out-of-jail-free" card, I think it's a big much.

Placing a portal within/beyond areas that require a group of 50s to navigate seems too much. Anytime a battle is going poorly, or just want to rest, or wanna go afk. Portal to Factions, Dischord, Deso, Gear, Outerlimits, etc. and viola, you're totally safe for as long as you want to be.

OR

Modify portal so the room you portal back to is somewhat randomized within the area. That way, the Cleric is more likely to choose a far off, BUT WALKABLE spot that isn't dangerous/very dangerous for a lvl 50 as opposed to the ONE room in all of the Faction of Magic/Dischord/Deso that doesn't have Aggro mobs.

Still gives the cleric plenty of head start, and a decent reprieve, without making them all but unkillable.

We all know Mya is against this. Anyone ELSE have some thoughts on this?

I think it is typical for a cleric to set a portal to an extremely hard to get to place. I cannot tell you how many times I have fought clerics til they are exhausted in mana and hp is going quickly, only to have them portal to outer limits, or below demoninicon. Any number of inaccessable places.

I believe curse should stop portal, as it is essentially recall.

I believe portal should have a negative aspect. Perhaps drained effect, or some similar malady. I also believe it should have a relatively long cooldown timer as well.

Good clerics are supposed to be nearly impossible to kill if they're playing it safe. I don't mind the idea of a drained affect after, but to complain that it makes them hard to kill is to fail to understand that they are intended to be that way. It's not like their offensive abilities are that incredible... they've got no way to lag at all, outside of cabal abilities. If you die to one, it's pretty much your fault... just like if one dies to you, it's pretty much their fault.

Good clerics are supposed to be nearly impossible to kill if they're playing it safe. I don't mind the idea of a drained affect after' date=' but to complain that it makes them hard to kill is to fail to understand that they are intended to be that way. It's not like their offensive abilities are that incredible... they've got no way to lag at all, outside of cabal abilities. If you die to one, it's pretty much your fault... just like if one dies to you, it's pretty much their fault.[/quote']

I have NO problem with them being HARD to kill. I have an issue with them being essentially IMPOSSIBLE to kill.

Having portal makes them hard to kill. Allowing portal to take them to a place that is inaccessible to their opponent makes them impossible to kill.

And on a side note:

Good Cleric's not being able to reliably PK isn't really true. Depending on the race, deity, and cabal choice, a good cleric can be a very strong and viable combo. Partially due to their survivability, as always, but also due to synergies. Saying they have no Offense so give them a defense that makes them impossible to kill if the Cleric is even moderately careful isn't a sound argument.

I understand where you're coming from, and if we're talking about a stripped down, run-of-the-mill Cleric, with no cabal, sure. I agree. But put a Cleric on the hands of someone who knows what's going on, even decently, and and it's overkill IMO.

There is nothing wrong with Portal, only with lack of tactics or a decent plan.

If you want a cleric to stay, make it worth to him to stay.

If you are 3 rounding his HP's to a critical level, you will not win unless you get lucky. No one will stay in a fight like that, you need to give him hope that he can kill you.

Then you bait. Get low, lower your melee, and when the time comes you suddenly burst.

OR you could telelock him.

Or fight in a telelocked area.

Or you could lag him with a charge.

Or you could paralize him.

Or you could cabal skill him.

OR watch his protective shield and bash.

Good clerics are piss easy to shutdown their offense and outdamage if you know what you are doing.

Just bait them, that is how I kill most. And how I normally die.

You just need to take a risk...

So basically, PK them as if you were a shaman?

There is nothing wrong with Portal' date=' [b'](Expected retort, which I disagree with) only with lack of tactics or a decent plan.

(also bogus statement.)

If you want a cleric to stay, make it worth to him to stay.

(valid)

If you are 3 rounding his HP's to a critical level, you will not win unless you get lucky. No one will stay in a fight like that, you need to give him hope that he can kill you.

(Also mostly valid. It has nothing to do with 3 rounding him though. Any other class, aside from Healers, can't ALWAYS escape like that. Any other mage, while perhaps not laggable, is at least CHASEABLE. The way it is now, you can't even chase when things start going your way--regardless of "plan" or "tactics." That's the issue I'm bringing up.)

Then you bait. Get low, lower your melee, and when the time comes you suddenly burst.

OR you could telelock him.

--(Can't think of a single scroll/wand/stave that telelocks. Which leaves one quest race with that potential option= bogus)

Or fight in a telelocked area.

--**(Can't comment here. Not sure of any that are thusly telelocked that you can't portal (recall yes, portal no) out of.) **

Or you could lag him with a charge.

--(Only if you're a mino, otherwise two rounds of lag is not gonna finish the Moderately safe Cleric. And everyone agrees mino charge is overpowered. So what you're saying is the way to beat this particular OP tactic is to use another OP tactic?)

Or you could paralize him.

--(That doesn't keep them from using portal, only delays it a little. Any moderately safe Cleric will be long gone before Paralysis can help you get a win. = bogus)

Or you could cabal skill him.

--(yep. We'll just throw that out as totally bogus because either (1) this is an Elder/Leader cabal skill, hence you didn't mention it or (2) it doesn't actually exist, otherwise, why not make it a credible argument? = bogus)

OR watch his protective shield and bash.

--(Didn't I mention we're talking about a MILDLY CONSERVATIVE/SAFE Cleric? This will NEVER happen. = BOGUS)

Good clerics are piss easy to shutdown their offense

(only three classes can "shut down" a Cleric's offense. One additional can hamper it = bogus)

and outdamage if you know what you are doing.

Just bait them, that is how I kill most. And how I normally die.

You just need to take a risk...

--(Taking a risk is one thing. Baiting them also is something else. What you're implying is trying to get the Cleric to be over confident and push a down-to-the-wire fight about who can get the last hit in...did I forget to mention Cleric's are an attrition class? For even a mildly skilled PKer this WILL NOT WORK. Not to mention, I'M TALKING ABOUT MILD TO MODERATELY CONSERVATIVE Clerics. That means at the slightest provocation, they portal. Unless EVERYTHING is going 100% their way. THIS is what makes them nigh unkillable, while still allowing you to get caught with your pants down, miscalculate etc. meaning that across a series of fights, the cleric will have MUCH better odds at getting the kill than the opponent will.)

All I'm saying is make portal not be in a spot that's totally inaccessible for the opponent (Gear, **Deso, Avalon, Dischord, OuterLimits, **Faction of Magic etc.) OR make the portal locked on an AREA and not on a specific room so that IF they choose to portal to Deso it will be risky and therefore inspire the Cleric to set their portal in a more safe location.

Still maintains PLENTY of defense and survivability for a Cleric, while not making them totally unkillable if played even with some mild to moderate conservatism.

The ONLY class that has that kind of survivability is a pk-restricted class (healers). And that's the way I think it should be.

I would like to point out (if no one else has) that portal is a one way trip. It's going to take that cleric some time to make it back. If you figure out where he happens to go, there's nothing wrong with having someone waiting on the other end of the favorite portal spot, eh? :trouble:

Not really. Cleric portals. Heals fully, recalls, and if it goes nasty during the beating he MIGHT take from a pit-sitter, he just portals again. Rinse repeat.

this is why i just rolled a cleric!

I have NO problem with them being HARD to kill. I have an issue with them being essentially IMPOSSIBLE to kill.

They aren't. They've got zero defense against rogues. Invokers make mincemeat of them, and can easily burst enough damage to drop one quickly from moderate HP levels. What they are is incredibly hard for a large number of combos to actually land a kill on - which is the point.

Good Cleric's not being able to reliably PK isn't really true. Depending on the race, deity, and cabal choice, a good cleric can be a very strong and viable combo. Partially due to their survivability, as always, but also due to synergies. Saying they have no Offense so give them a defense that makes them impossible to kill if the Cleric is even moderately careful isn't a sound argument.

I didn't say they have no offense, I said they have limited offense - they can't burst damage well, and they can't lag. The only cabals that let them overcome the latter have PK restrictions (Trib and Sigil), and Savant powers don't provide much in the way of burst damage. I don't deny their potency, but that potency is entirely encapsulated in their survivability and attrition-style fighting, which you have time to get away from if you need to.

Nobody has pointed out that if the good cleric is setting their portal defensively (in some 50 area), they aren't using portal correctly. You don't need to be worried about those clerics who make their placements in such places...

Portal is best used offensively--to finish people off at their temples with recall lag or to cut people off in the path of returning standards (for example, just north of Maelbrim).

Portal should have a recall-like lag though, since I think this awesome finishing power isn't consistent with their "weak finishing, high durability" design emphasis.

Portal should have a recall-like lag though' date=' since I think this awesome finishing power isn't consistent with their "weak finishing, high durability" design emphasis.[/quote']

This makes perfect sense to me.

@Celerity: I also think a recall-lag on portal is appropriate, but something of slightly a separate, but very related, issue (portal being a very strong offensive ability) than what I'm referencing (portal being too strong of a defensive ability).

So is druid gate also too powerful? I don't really see the issue with portal - what else do good clerics have going for them?

I don't see the issue with portal either. The only possible problem there is, is that it can be used for offensive and defensive purposes.

(Can't think of a single scroll/wand/stave that telelocks. Which leaves one quest race with that potential option= bogus)

Blademastes aren't Qclasses.

(Only if you're a mino, otherwise two rounds of lag is not gonna finish the Moderately safe Cleric. And everyone agrees mino charge is overpowered. So what you're saying is the way to beat this particular OP tactic is to use another OP tactic?)"

The point is to save the charge for when he is down. Try to fight in a 1 room exit, so he misses his flee and you know where he is fleeing. Then you charge. Better used in conjunction with ... paralizys.

(That doesn't keep them from using portal, only delays it a little. Any moderately safe Cleric will be long gone before Paralysis can help you get a win. = bogus)

See above.

--(Can't comment here. Not sure of any that are thus telelocked that you can't portal (recall yes, portal no) out of.)

This is the knowledge part that aids in PK. Yes, noteleport rooms also block Portal.

--(yep. We'll just throw that out as totally bogus because either (1) this is an Elder/Leader cabal skill, hence you didn't mention it or (2) it doesn't actually exist, otherwise, why not make it a credible argument? = bogus)

Do I really have to spell out the cabal abilities?

Trusted, Tribunal, Council

Trusted ?, Nexus, Reaver.

--(Didn't I mention we're talking about a MILDLY CONSERVATIVE/SAFE Cleric? This will NEVER happen. = BOGUS)

This makes it sounds like he is more skilled than you.

(only three classes can "shut down" a Cleric's offense. One additional can hamper it = bogus)

Any meele class can shut down a cleric offense. It's calling having the appropriate saves and melee weapon knowledge.

--(Taking a risk is one thing. Baiting them also is something else. What you're implying is trying to get the Cleric to be over confident and push a down-to-the-wire fight about who can get the last hit in...did I forget to mention Cleric's are an attrition class? For even a mildly skilled PKer this WILL NOT WORK. Not to mention, I'M TALKING ABOUT MILD TO MODERATELY CONSERVATIVE Clerics. That means at the slightest provocation, they portal. Unless EVERYTHING is going 100% their way. THIS is what makes them nigh unkillable, while still allowing you to get caught with your pants down, miscalculate etc. meaning that across a series of fights, the cleric will have MUCH better odds at getting the kill than the opponent will.)

They aren't unkillable. Your class might have more difficulty than others. That's just that. Some classes have easy time vs clerics.

Just to remind you what you can do to block Portal escape:

Skill that prevent portal:

Tribunal, Trusted, Council -> Ensnare.

Syndicate, Trusted ?, -> Abduction to no port out area.

Skills that prevent communing:

Nexus, Trusted?, Reaver -> Right chaos weapon

Berserker, Anger, Headbut SKullcracker

Blademaster, Race mastery, Critical strike.

Shaman, Blasphemy

Cleric, Path of deception, Blasphemy

Other stuff you can do:

Watcher, Webthing + Trip.

Mino triger charging.

Warrior Lore stuff, + Paralizys weapons.

Assassinate

Being a thief

Fighting in no teleport areas.

Baiting.

And other stuff I can't remember now.

So, what class are you using?

On offensive use.... It's mostly the prevention of recall. Which a Cleric will most likely do at the start of the fight with curse in order to land ray stuff. A veteran player will never recall when facing a Cleric. Most times nothing will happen, but if you show that you aren't afraid of recalling vs a Cleric, he will then place the Portal at your pit.

To who ever rolled the Cleric, you will regret choosing your race when thulgan logs in

Another thing.

I bet only few of you know you can't portal mounted on a horse.

And that in the past you could not portal away if blind?

You couldn't find the gate...

Mya defending portal reminds me of ghrundor defending mino charge

Any goodie cleric that dies to an invoker is playing very poorly. You flee at 50%, heal, rinse repeat. Eventually, as with EVERY class a goodie cleric fights, you will wittle them down til they die, or at the very least you will create a stalemate, and by doing that your going to make the other person take unnecessary risks to try to win.