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[Suggestion] Bard Fixes

I have always had a special place in my heart for the bard class. As lackluster as they may be, they've always been a ton of fun for me to play. That said, they have so many things in their kit that just doesn't fit the style of FL. And when more than half of the things your class does is outdated or out of place with the game, its time to consider some changes. Now, I wouldn't bring this up if I hadn't already thought up a few, and I encourage others to pitch in.

Problems:

Knockout: Very rarely works. So rarely, in fact, that throw is pretty much always the better option.

Uppercut. I have seen it many times where even when it breaks the victim's jaw, they still cast. Battlemages, clerics, even invokers. It is certainly possible they were under the effects of subvocalize, and I am off base here. Anyone else that's played a bard recently, could you confirm?

Tarots. I've brought it up in prayer before. Tarots are a poor use of mana 7 times out of 10, and that's with the lucky perk. Stat bonuses don't really do anything you aren't already going to be accomplishing via gear and spells/songs (str bonus from legend of hercules stacks with giant strength. a third str bonus is too redundant). Tune falls victim to this same outdated mechanic. Players just don't have use of the range of different results. Streamline them, make it worth the investment.

Terrible weapon choices. Staff and pugil, but the useful combat songs require an instrument. Just as bad of a weapon selection as a thief (arguably worse, with the previously mentioned bit on staffs) without the added incentive to make it workable.

Support abilities in a game that punishes group-based PK and rewards solo prowess. Let's face it, the Bard is a support class. FL, however, has no need of one.

Abilities that do very little or worse, absolutely nothing. Marriage song, Serenade. Why do we have them? A bard can freeverse a song for any wedding IG they want to attend, or woo some character thats caught their eye. Panhandle, when you can farm tens of thousands of gold with no combat required at level 1, and can already steal. King's Feast. Sure, it's nice, but 150 gold a duck is already cheap. No giant bards, so 300 gold every so often when having less than 10k is unheard of just kinda defeats the purpose.

Brawl, a gimped 4th attack that only works in the terrain where your greatest enemies exist and wait for you to come try and hide in. This is another huge problem. The bard's a hybrid rogue that can't actually function as a rogue. Hide/sneak without detect hidden. A gimped 4th attack is not really worth the giant risk of duking it out in a city, and surely not waiting around in one to try and knock out a player, only to almost assuredly fail and eat some hefty lag. You'll get blackjacked/strangled before you do, and either have everything you own stolen by a thief or eat an assassination because the ninja studied you the entire time you waited for that avian invoker.

Magic Missile, but only three abilities that make use of the lowered saves, only one of which will see much use. Let's face it, we're not singing Weak of Mind and Body when we could be singing Four Seasons or throwing vuln cards.

Analyze, in my opinion, belongs on an adventurer, not a bard.

So what are the good options for a Bard in combat?

Throw. The go-to ability. Unless you're trying to run, it's a pretty safe bet that this is going to be the best thing to do, especially with vuln cards.

Taunt. Some players don't like it. I do. Since bards have awful defense, it helps mitigate the large amounts of damage they'll undoubtedly be taking.

Four Seasons. Some pretty good damage options.

Dirt kick: fairly standard and always useful.

Disarm. Not as effective, given their weapon choices, but every bit helps.

Magic Missile. "But you said..." Yeah, I did. So what does that say about how useful the rest of the bard's abilities are?

What about their other abilities?

Mystery is awesome. Free useful stat.

Shield of words is great.

Battle Hymn is dope.

Trip... not really all THAT useful, but I feel I should mention it somewhere. Few are the times where a bard will use it. They don't really want to try and lag anyone, most people are flying during fights, and throw accomplishes more. Pretty much only really useful when the enemy is worse technically or sorely outmatched in equipment, and going to lose anyway, but you don't want to have to chase.

Some good utility as well.

Best thing the bard has going for it is that spells and songs with similar effects stack (i.e. shield of words and the shield spell provide the same effect, but can still both be present on a single target).

So what are we left with?

Might as well call it the Thrower. Wanna play a bard? Spend hours farming every consumable in the game and a ton of cards of each vuln. Before each battle, smoke up and start spamming throw. Get in a cabal like Watcher or Trib for awesome pets and pray to whatever God(s) you cherish that your pet bashes them when its useful.

So what can be done for bards?

Remove instrument requirements, make base songs weaker. If an instrument is equipped, the song is stronger/lasts longer.

Rework tarots to either allow the buffed stat to surpass the normal racial bonus (albeit at a lesser amount, like 2), or remove the attribute bonus effects and replace them with proficiency boosts in other bard skills.

Lose mace. Gain whips.

Gain detect hidden.

Increase knockout chance slightly, i suggest ~10%

Grant dual parry.

I agree bards need some help. In the AMA I said we had some stuff floating around, but other projects have come up. I'll see if we can get this moving again, but I can't make any real promises.

step one; give bards preserve

step two; give bards detect hidden

step three; drop dirt kick and bring back eye gouge

step four; bring back some of the old songs, or create new ones. I have a few ideas.

Old songs, devils dance, and the spider song(mya could help me remember the name)

two new songs

One;

Faith Forsaken (because my bards get owned by clerics)

Open your eyes, as you awaken

And know your faith has been forsaken

close your eyes and start to pray

and realize you'll rue the day

you crossed the bards and now their mad

with your prayers unanswered you will be sad

affect: blasphemy (aids vs clerics, shaman, healers, an paladins)

Two;

Loneliness (just because its special)

Your brave, so brave, with your friends about

how will you feel if I single you out

Will you still fight, oh will you stay

after I send all your friends away

how will you deal with your only mess

when your heart is stricken with loneliness.

affect: limited isolate (opponent loses one follower)

Just a couple of suggestions, feel free to disagree.

I've always loved bards too, but found them severely lacking. of any class, I think the Bards should have selectable skills... they should be one of the most varied classes in FL, while still being functional and fun. easier said than done, of that I'm sure.

for bard types, I always fancied the idea of either a city bard with more thief based abilities or a traveler with ranger based abilities... these abilities should relate to the survival aspects of each class, such as hide/detect hidden... keen/camo... etc.

of course, there is no reason for fluff songs that you spend a practice on when you can just rp it...

I like the suggestions by both Croyvern and Enethier. I look forward to seeing a re-vamped Bard. sooner or later is perfectly acceptable, so long as they're on the list! Thanks, Volg.

Scourge of the black widow? I always call it spider song.

Enethier:

I would like to add "Good Tiddings" to the good things on bards. Fired weapons, Steal and Analise.

In my view bards at the moment do Ok as a RP class and badly as PK class. Old bards were better as a RP class in my view. No comment on PK.

I also have the opinion that bards should be the continuation of Adventurers class. Perhaps even allowing L30 Adventurers to convert directly to L30 bard.

** My analyses of bards.**

AC breaking:

What is the weakest in the PK aspect of bards in my opinion it's their AC breaking capabilities.

This:

You throw your silver cards and hit Oponent with several of them.

Your throw DISMEMBERS Oponent!

You dual parry Oponent's attack.

You dodge Oponent's attack.

You fire from a silver bow and hit Oponent with a couple shots.

A silver bow's divine power MUTILATES Oponent!

Your divine power misses Oponent.

Your wrath misses Oponent.

Oponent parries your attack.

Oponent parries your attack.

Your wrath misses Oponent.

Bards have the worst old D&D THAC0 ratting (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/THAC0) of third attack classes. They also need to dual wield for defensive purposes (Staff parry < Parry + Dual parry).

For example a dual wielding bard with 40 hitroll trying to hit a -400 AC target will miss 50% of the time. It's that bad.

(I'm my view the whole THAC0 things should be rebuilt, but that does not belongs in here.)

One can argue that Taunt +50 AC and dirt kick aid versus this, but my practical experience says that it does not work.

Bard defenses:

Bards defend badly because they know very few weapons. Parry and dual parry are dependent on knowledge of your opponents weapon. And on wielding defensive weapon.

In my view bards should be able to learn spears.

They should also have their meele defense buffed. In my view this could be done in two way. One by giving them Two handed which is a lot better than dual parry. This would allow bards to trade offense for defense.

Or by giving them Blur, a low % defense that is not dependent of weapon knowledge.

Meele offense.

As long as a bard can break AC, their meele offense is actually OK.

They should never lose Maces as someone suggested, because a Blademaster in arrow deflecting stance will shut down a bard completely.

At least dual maces would allow them to have a chance at the meele game.

Spells:

Bards lack spells. That is the truth of it.

Magic missile is a good option, but you are not a DK. A bard will get it's HP chewed easy due to their bad defenses. You will need to cure serious, and hope you have a high mana base.

Detect invis saves you a lot of trouble.

Locate object makes life so much easy.

As does Word of Recall. This are all newbie aids.

Bards should have one hard damage spell. Something like Fireball. Remember Fireball is very easy to do low damage with aff saves.

And they should have the RP bardic spells.

Cure poison or some sort of Slow poison.

Slow would also be a great spells for them.

And Enlarge. Remember bards cannot bash. Enlarge would allow you not be forced to play a Avian ninble for the added bash protection. Cause giant bash is just unbearable as a bard.

Buffs:

Bard buffs come mainly from songs.

Good tidings for +5 luck for 25 hours.

Shield of Words for -20 AC for long time.

Battle Hym for +7/+7 hit/rol frenzy for 12 hours. Which is a PAIN due to the low duration.

Mystery of the Unicorn song for -15 aff, mal or Mental saves. Random for like 16 hours.

In my view Battle Hym should be extended. For a newbie class it's a pain to be casting that with a Instrument every 6 min. 24 hours would be nice.

Mystery of Unicorn is nice, but you cannot control it. This means that it is only has a useful application 33% of the time. In my view this should be changed to reflect terrain. For example, desert or ice gave mental saves ... and so on. Cut the randomness and bring on player skill.

A buff that they are lacking is a blessing. This could be a spell, but I think it should be better suited as a song that affects all your group. Long duration and instrument only.

Skills:

Uppercut works for me. Silence only works on casters without protective shield. This means DK's and Bards only, and low chance of Silence, perhaps 33%.

I mostly use it as Lagging tool.

Knockout. Forget sleep like ability, that's has a low % comparable to DK's cleave. It might be useful as a Lagging tool. If you like a ~33% chance to lag.

Reverse. This is great, you reverse 4 seasons and it used to auto sing it random seasons during that tic. Then it was changed to only the 4 seasons.

For that, it's better to just sing it in battle not reversing.

Taunt. It cuts +50 AC, for 2 hours. It's crap. Useful vs mobs due to AC breaking thing.

Some say it makes your opponent have a harder time fleeing. I never noticed it because, most of the time I was the one fleeing. :eek:

Analise. This is one of the bards best skills. It allows you to get the Level and vulns/resistances of a mob to up your rank.

Example:

Name: A female centaur Rank: 40

Immune : summon

Resistant : weapon

Vulnerable: cold

Great, isn't it? If it was not up from a single breaking detail that drives me mad . The limit up to your rank, this means that when it's most useful, when you are hunting, you cannot use it. Because every monster you hunt is higher rank than you. And then when you get to L50 and intend to use it on though mobs who have good EQ to make your life easy you cannot.

Still, go analise Garacci , you will discover interesting things on PC's.

By the way Thank You, to who ever made it non agro. Years ago it would engage who ever you Analised.

Steal is amazing. So is being able to locate and steal gyvels. To bad bards have a hard time blinding people. Then again magic missile and scrolls....

Fired weapons on scrolls class is great. You can fire arrows and they can't.

Panhandle. RP thing. Completely. Very fun.

Disguise. This can be a huge RP tool.

Hide is great. But just don't hide in cities. You will be sorry very fast.

Tarot. I hardly use it. But it's a great RP tool. And fun. No PK use.

Throw is the staple of bards. No need to go into detail, since everyone knows one of the best bard strategy is a HP Throw tank Dwarf.

Ventriloquate is fun. Pity you can save it with mental (I think). I should not have a save, after all it's a RP tool.

Tune. I tried to use it, but frankly it has no real use. A good change would be to give % proficiency on songs. After all that's what instruments are good for. Singing songs.

Brawl. Right, like I would lurk inside a city as a bard for PK. I almost never use it.

Songs:

Four seasons is interesting, if to low damage. But then again auto damage should not be high.

Legends of hercules is great. Giant Strengh MK II

Clash of Titans ... is a song you use for area attacks pre Four seasons. After, just forget it.

Rest in Peace ... Amazing, but I never was able to land it on a PC.

Weak of mind and body. I swear this was upgraded recently. But it needs to tell the singer when it's effects kick in. Just think what would happen if a cleric casted sermon, but never knew when he landed it.

Rest thy feat. Amazing song, even better than Refresh for clerics.

Water to wine. At first I was "why do I even practiced it", then I became a chronical drunk. Must have for a Bard.

Flight of the Condor. Interesting, but I have yet to find a PK application for it.

Granting short flight would be interesting. I thought I could use it to bypass traps, but no.

Lullaby + Herald of the Sky. Situational, but amazing to play pranks on your group.

Let it be know. Aka Merchant discount that was working in reverse last time I seriously tested. If fixed it's a good aid.

Levithans passing. Good, but to short. I know why so short, but still 0 hours of a fountain is a bit short for the newbie.

A kings Feats. For the hardcore newbie who forgets to get milk. It did not work on food for me, only on mob body parts. Still amazing for newbies. Help song description or essay should refer how to use it, as it's a basic thing.

Please Fix song learning. I think it's still using the old learning system. It takes age to even improve 1% on a song. For example L50 elf with 200 hours of play gets 76% Battle Hym. This is using the that song buff all the time.

Instruments:

At first I was mad with having to wield a instrument to sing some songs.

Then I found about instruments you can hold, right there in Maelbrim.

But it took me 50+ hours. Perhaps a quest for a holding instrument would be great. Even if it was just to walk to Elven Kingdom and buy one.

After some play, I just started to love being gimped by having to wield a instrument in battle. It just grew on me. I hope this part is never changed, it makes bards unique.

Also, Avalon Instrument Disapearing lute needs a change. First it needs to be hold, not wielded, then it needs to cast Vanish not word of Recall. Bards already know word of recall as a spell.

Resume.

Bards are a fun class but with some problems on the PK department. Many things are still unsaid, but 2 hours of writing this is giving me a head ache.

To quick fix bards:

  • 1 improve THAC0 rating of bards to ninjas or DK's.

  • 2 Improve defenses. Two handed or Blur. Perhaps add spears.

  • 3 Fix bash of doom vulnerability. The class is weak, give it enlarge. That would make Enethier and me stop advising to go avian nimble as a necessity.

  • 4 Fix song learning.

General improvements.

  • 5 Make Analise work to Level +10. Or at least free up to L55.

  • 6 Rework Knockout.

  • 7 Selectionable Songs. Keep basic bard songs free. Bring old songs back. More songs.

  • 8 More spells. Bards are casters to.

PS: Do not lose maces. Remember Blademasters and that with 2 hands they get access to all vuns through maces.

Wow

Thanks Mya some good information there.

^hoping for a bard revamp^ just because it will flood Aabahran with song!

my 2 cents

Bards have too much crap in their kit that never gets used. They need a trimming of the excess fat.

Songs should not require practices to learn, they need to save practices to turn into hp/mana later on. Maybe if they got trimmed down it would not be a big deal but I think they have more things to practice than any other class in the game.

Since there is freeverse any song that does not actually do something useful should be removed or given at 100% or be learned some other way that is not wasting practices (ie song book quests where you learn a pack of songs at a time)

Weapons. I see bards as hybrid casters/rogues, so they should get every weapon that a rogue or caster would get. Give them dagger, sword, mace, spear, whip, staff. They would not be op since they still don't get polearm, axe and flail. I mean they are described as Jack of all Trades yet they know so few weapons?!?

They need something against rogues. I think bards should be very strong in cities and I do not like the idea of giving them a ranger type path. I think they should either get detect hidden outright OR they should get some kind of sense shadow skill where they can see "someone" is in the area with them but they don't know who.

Defence. I actually think they should not get two-handed but they need something. A spell like blur would be a nice touch to give them a random chance to avoid attacks, maybe it could be called flourish or something where they use their cloak like a matador to randomly to make the enemy miss outright (this would work on lag attacks too, so bashlock problem also solved). I also think they should get a bonus defence in cities, kinda like Jackie Chan in rumble in the bronx, where they use the environment they know so well to do cool dodges (maybe call it tumble or something).

Lastly I think bards should have a class unique slot for instruments. Then tune becomes useful and choosing which instrument becomes meaningful. I think having to swap stuff around while fighting is a pointless hassle. Somewhere there is a thread where an Imm explained why some classes can dual wield and fire a bow, something about how time is different in FL and so the things arent happening as fast as we see them. I like that explanation, so why can't a bard have two weapons and still pause for a moment to play a chord and hum a quick tune?

That's all I got for now.

To revisit this thread, I come with an idea for a new song. 

Dancing Flute: Targets an instrument and allows it to float, replacing your floating item slot. While the instrument is equipped and floating, the bard can sing songs that require an instrument without having to hold the instrument himself. 

Give it an upkeep and a moderate duration.

I want to also say that I really like Mister E's idea about using city terrain to their defense. Replace dodge with a new skill, Tumble.

Tumble: Works like dodge, but with bonuses. While in cities, bards are able to weave around objects and buildings, using them to keep their enemy at a constant disadvantage, represented by a bonus to the chance to evade attacks, as well as an increased chance to evade grapples, bashes and bodyslams.

A spell with an berserk effect might be nice also.

guys. bards. bards, you guys. bards.