FL now has a thread where the staff admits that vets can get more HP than new players (120-200 more HP per Kassieti) and most of the voices are saying variations of "It doesn't matter". Is that really what you want to be selling?
The reason I think service trains are a problem is because it's something a character cannot overcome. For the service trains method to work, you have to build your character right and operate with the assumption that you'll get into a cabal and get in quickly. And for most/all of you, getting caballed is a given. That combination is what makes it unfair.
Is the game balanced with this taken into consideration? Now that's a real obstacle.
Robbing a bank implies that you're getting something from nothing.
I mean, robbing a bank and getting away with it could be hard work.
55 minutes ago, Kassieti said:
You have a finite resource that you trade in for another resource. You've decided that to play the most video games possible, or for the longest time, you skimped out on meals and are living on bread and water, where anyone who didn't save trains at every turn, is eating a ham sandwich (or merely has more expensive bread) at the cost of a few tokens.
I can see this argument for 1 practicing, but not really for service train. Its not alot of work to use service train, its knowing it exists and knowing enough about the mud to be able to quickly amass a bundle of CPs. By having Vet Flag = TRUE, you get an advantage.
55 minutes ago, Kassieti said:
If trains, and by proxy practices, are such a problem, why don't we see more gnomes running around?
You are right every race is not equally min/max possible. Gnomes are very, very hard to min/max, in fact, though, not easier.
Gnomes have alot of practices, yes, 100%. But for the most part, you get those extra practices no matter what you do. That's not a min/max opportunity to have more than other similar characters.
Gnome has a default roll of 26. They have 32 stats to train. They only get 60 hp from service train. Human got 70.
They also can't 1 practice train for any benefit vs other gnomes. So you can't min/max that dynamic for gnomes.
There you can't push gnome as much past its "original" hp/mana as you can the other races, but its roughly close.
Effectively while I can get human to 150-200 above its "original otherwise" hp, gnome wouldn't be as easy to min/max, getting <100 hp from min/max.
edit: edit to fix basic math error.
27 minutes ago, myrek said:
There's a key point that I think you're missing.
FL now has a thread where the staff admits that vets can get more HP than new players (120-200 more HP per Kassieti) and most of the voices are saying variations of "It doesn't matter". Is that really what you want to be selling?
The reason I think service trains are a problem is because it's something a character cannot overcome. For the service trains method to work, you have to build your character right and operate with the assumption that you'll get into a cabal and get in quickly. And for most/all of you, getting caballed is a given. That combination is what makes it unfair.
Is the game balanced with this taken into consideration? Now that's a real obstacle.
FL now has a thread where the staff admits that vets can get more HP than new players (120-200 more HP per Kassieti) and most of the voices are saying variations of "It doesn't matter". Is that really what you want to be selling?
Should the vet not be rewarded for knowing quests and service trains? I put in years of work playing this game, and I can tell you I didn't even learn about HP quests and service trains until Puerilaug. I was doing fine before that, but now that I've payed attention and done the research I now know how to get another 100 Hp and mana. To sum this up, its not like we are hoarding this information. Its common knowledge that you can do this. The FACT remains EVERYONE CAN do it.
So I'd like to understand how its not fair? When everyone gets the same chance to do it? Sounds to me like lazy player will suffer and a player that puts the effort in will reap the reward.
I agree that vets should be rewarded. Do you think that taking away this 1 single thing offsets/nullifies all the other things you know as a vet? Do you think that this specific vet benefit (the service train hp bonus) is fair in function and scale?
I agree that vets should be rewarded. Do you think that taking away this 1 single thing offsets/nullifies all the other things you know as a vet? Do you think that this specific vet benefit (the service train hp bonus) is fair in function and scale?
I don't see how this is a "VET" thing. The quests vets know is a Vet thing, and this is where you will gain most of your hp. Service train is a perk rewarded for Joining a CABAL. If you know you're going to join a Cabal, why would you not want to do this? With the grind of guild quests it is not difficult to get the CPS. Everyone can do this. And really we are talking about anywhere from 40 to 70 hp, and double for mana.
I don't see how this is a "VET" thing. The quests vets know is a Vet thing, and this is where you will gain most of your hp. Service train is a perk rewarded for Joining a CABAL. If you know you're going to join a Cabal, why would you not want to do this. With the grind of guild quests it is not difficult to get the CPS. Everyone can do this.
Because its a non-obvious thing to do. Most chars without being expressly told they should not max str/dex until 20-30 hours into 50 would be confused I think.
Also, with the amount of CPs service train uses, you really need quests to do it viably. So its also behind the "vet knowledge" wall.
You also need to be OOC involved in this mud to figure out how to do it-- forum, discord, etc. Its not a logical thing most people would think or try to do without prompting and I'd be curious what % of you figured out about it from someone else vs trying it. I know alot of people figured out about it OOC because I've shared this info with alot of people over the years, for better or worse. At the time all I really cared about was min/max'ing my own chars. I typically have always fell into the powergaming category. I 1 prac'd Patreus (dwarf cleric) with the drunk perk back in the day and min/max'd service train to an extreme degree at a point where only a subset of vets knew about this, and it got me a leg up at the time, small or large.
One of the big chats on discord lately on adventurer to 50 was the "additional min/max" opportunity presented as a problem. This really started me thinking of all the min/max we do and I started to imagine what I'd think about these things as a new player...and if someone told me, "Yeah so you spend your entire char's ranking with low dex/str...gotta know some really key items to buff those stats and go grab them from exactly where they are..item index? nah, gotta use OOC connects like discord/forum, then I'll tell you where the shit at, then you rank all the way up to 50 without max stats, then you do these super secret quests I can't give you info about, amass thousands of this very rare cabal currency, then use that currency to finally get to max stats so you can repurpose your stat training into HP. Also if you don't do this you'll totally be at a disadvantage on some combos" I'd laugh and move onto the next mud.
This is the Reward I get for playing the Mud for 20 years off and on. Lets be real, if someone is joining the mud on their first character, a few HP is not going to make a difference. I get my ass handed to me by the Elites who can type where and know exactly where I am. Should they be punished because they know where that room is? Is the "where" command OOC knowledge? Should we get rid of WHERE?
Do you really believe that new players can expect to get caballed?
Yes.
3 minutes ago, myrek said:
Not according to the staff.
This does not include quests, only SERVICE TRAIN.
3 minutes ago, myrek said:
12-20 trains below the min-max player.
That is including 1 practicing things, which I did when I made my second character learning that I could use 1 practice and convert some to trains. You walk by the trainer and he TELLS you "I can convert your practices to trains."
I could care less about it to be honest. Quests is where you get your HP. Though its nice to know that my time playing this game. Armor awareness. Knowing what EQ will make up the difference matters. There are drawbacks to the Service train. I can tell you, depending on what you choose not to train you will have to make it up in armor, and sometimes this hurts you in PK. Fight a ninja, and have only enough eq to get your dex where it should be and one caltrap and you're screwed.
This is the Reward I get for playing the Mud for 20 years off and on. Lets be real, if someone is joining the mud on their first character, a few HP is not going to make a difference. I get my ass handed to me by the Elites who can type where and know exactly where I am. Should they be punished because they know where that room is? Is the "where" command OOC knowledge? Should we get rid of WHERE?
I would argue the prevalence of locate object has also made vet room knowledge exponentially more powerful.
But yeah, ideally, shuffling/changing room names over time to keep vets on their toes would be a good idea in my opinion. Areas change over time and Vets have to keep learning the areas to keep up the edge.
The problem is when you "reward" people for 20 years of play you punish people for the first 19 years of play.
The growing pains are real. As @Ulmusdorn would say GEEEEEEEETTTT GOOOOOOODDDDD
Which he still tells me.
I've been playing 20 years, too, and I like my advantages like anyone else. I know where good eq is, I know the skill/spells/weapons of most classes by heart, and I can close my eyes and see the exact move paths between most commonly traveled points. I know how to farm consumables, the exact calcs of alot of spells/skills and what they can do, I have memories of previous fights of combos I'm about to go PvP against to draw from.
I already have a ton of advantages before you layer on hp/mana vs a new player, which is really the only place you are getting a major bump since the poll seems to show most vets use these tactics. You aren't getting any advantage vs Vets who also do it. You only get an advantage against newer players. I don't need to have more hp/mana than a new char to kick their ass. That's not an advantage I need as a player whose been on this mud for 20 years.
I am also cognizant that the more I take these advantages, the more I raise the barrier to entry for new players in terms of all the things they have to learn. I don't want it to take the next player 20 years to learn what I know now.
FL now has a thread where the staff admits that vets can get more HP than new players (120-200 more HP per Kassieti)...
I was using @Aidon's OP as the basis for my numbers. Which while not far off the mark, is merely a quick estimate.
You're making it sound like vets magically get more trains over newbies. While this might be closer to the truth concerning quests, it doesn't hold true to race selection. With that out of the way, I never said they'll get more trains. Just the potential to free up more is had due to min-maxers knowing which hoops they have to jump through. A fire giant is going to get 2 practices per level regardless of it being rolled by a vet or new player. A gnome will get 5, assuming they push their wis to max.
Let's ignore quests for a moment.
The information on practices and trains isn't exactly hidden. All the dots are there. At the risk of sounding callous, we didn't realize that people would need a map to connect them.
tl;dr: A min-maxing vet gets 2-11 "extra" trains by jumping through various hoops + quests over new players.
`help practice
PRACTICE
Syntax: PRACTICE
Syntax: PRACTICE <skill|spell>
Syntax: REHEARSE `
`PRACTICE without an argument tells you your current ability level in all
the skills and spells available to you. You can check this anywhere.`
`PRACTICE with an argument practice that skill or spell. You may learn to
75% proficiency in a skill or spell from your guild master. You must be at
a guild master to practice. `
REHEARSE is analogus to PRACTICE but works for songs.
`The higher your intelligence, the more you will learn at each practice
session. The higher your wisdom, the more practice sessions you will have
each time you gain a level. Unused sessions are saved until you do use
them.`
`Those below level 15 can't practice higher than 80% until they rank. No one
can use a skill/spell that is at 1% as one cannot expect to learn a skill/spell
when they have nothing as a basis.`
`help gain
GAIN 'GAIN CONVERT' 'GAIN STUDY'`
`Adventurers of the realm may ask the trainers to convert ten practice
sessions into one training session. The ability to do this is called 'gain
convert'.`
`Similarly, trainers can help adventurers change one training session into
ten practices. To do this, find an appropriate trainer and type
'gain study'.`
`help train
TRAIN
Syntax: train {str int wis dex con hp mana move}`
`TRAIN increases one of your attributes. When you start the game, your
character has standard attributes based on your class, and several initial
training sessions. You can increase your attributes by using these sessions
at a trainer (there are several scattered throughout the realm).`
`It takes one training session to improve an attribute, or to increase hp by
10, mana by 20 or movement by 30. You receive one training session every five
levels.``1`
`The best attributes to train first are WIS and CON. WIS gives you more
practice sessions when you gain a level. CON gives you more hit points. In
the long run, your character will be most powerful if you train WIS and CON
both to the max for your race before practicing or training anything else.
See GAIN`
1The help file is wrong at the time of writing this (currently reads 10 hp/mana per train) but is in the process of being corrected to how it's shown above.
You start with 3 trains. You gain 10 as you rank to 50. That gives you 13 right there.
You start with 5 practices. A 15 wis gives 2 per level. That's 103. A potential 10 trains totaling 23.
A gnome gets 5 per level for a total of 250. 38 potential trains.
So we're at 23-38 trains just from leveling. You can quote me on that.
People have 40-70 skills in their chosen class, though not everyone will practice all skills (eg: kick). Assuming you did and only using one practice each, that would mean you're short 4-7. Your range is now anywhere between 16-31 to 21-34.
This is a potential 160-340 hp anyone can get, merely by reading help files and looking at your gained practices when you level.
Out of all these, I would say that a new player will be short at most 8 trains due to race (human/duergar), minimum 2 (fire giant). They wouldn't know they can join a cabal and use cabal points to train stats. At least not likely in their first playthrough.
Which now means you're up 20-80 hp over others of your race.
If you go adventurer, gain another 2-3 trains.
The main difference is when you add in quests, which newbies definitely won't know about or which ones give practices/trains. You've got another 5-10 here. Ish. I'm guessing.
At the end of the day, that's 7-18 extra trains over new players by jumping through a number of hoops.