AC check, AC and Hit roll and Classes.

FL changes. AC check (the blue miss meele attack due to high oponents AC) mechanics appears to have changed in the recent years.

In the old days, you would hardly miss with insane Hitroll, but now you have a small chance to miss no matter your hitroll. Probably a d20 as in natural 20 or natural 1, akin to D&D.

But something appears to have stayed the same.

Classes hit differently through AC.

A Warrior will have a easier time bypassing AC than a Cleric. A relic of THAC0, D&D 2.

I think that his is detrimental to the game.

AC miss should be based only on Hitroll (and perhaps luck). Not Class.

It makes little mechanical sense. The classes versus which you would need to relly more on AC due extreme melee output are the ones that you cannot relly on AC.

Changing this would allow players to have the option to dress in AC. Something that is mostly reserved to ranking when you are a low defenses class. Halflings and BMG's.

AC suits although very weak, are somewhat balanced.

High Bash/Pierce/Slash values have low Magic AC values, and vice verse. Introducing player skill factor by choosing the right weapon damage type.

To resume, can we please remove Class from the AC hit/miss equation?

Argggg. I want to read an idea by Mya that makes me go WOW! But it always seems like you want to give casters, the classes who have the advantages, more of them.

I dont even know if class matters. It seems blms hit ALOT more often with less hit, and alot harder with less dam. I dont know about class effecting miss chances, but even if it did I think its a beef melee should keep.

If I spend 10-20 years doing nothing but swinging a sword, I better have some advantage over the cleric who has been casting for 10-20, without alot of melee in between.

I imagine that even if it WAS coded this way (which I doubt it was) there was a reason for it. If your telling me that my bmg should hit as often as a warrior with 50 hitroll (if both have it) your just wrong.

You used D&D references of Thaco. That means to hit at armor class zero. Now if you also look at melee vs caster level advancement in D&D, fighters get better BAB (base attack bonus). So even if your ac was 10, and a level 20 war, and level 20 cleric attacked you with only a flail, the war would have a better chance of beating you. Not because clerics suck, but because a warriors basic training kicks in, and he HAS an advantage with those weapons.

Warcry and Berserk. That is your BAB. Affecting all defenses (parry/dodge/shield block...)

Clerics get spell buffs. Bad class to use as example...

Thieves on other hand, do not have those BAB, to reflect their worse defense bypass or BAB progression.

Most meele oriented classes have some form of Hitdam Buff. This is normally proportional to BAB.

"If your telling me that my bmg should hit as often as a warrior with 50 hitroll (if both have it) your just wrong."

Yes, that is what I am telling. A BMG meele attack that has the same Hitroll as a Warrior should bypass armor the same % as a Warrior. Distinction comes from Damage, by number of attacks and Damroll. Warrior comes on top due to Hitroll Skills and 4 attacks and dual wield.

Do you have code proof of this statement, Mya? Or are you just forgetting that a warrior dual-wielding can have up to 8 attacks - therefore increasing the chance more will get through AC?

As I told you. That part of the Code changed.

No way to provide reliable 100% code proof.

But it was there. And in my opinion from mud PK events Class distinction is still there.

Play a melee, go WM, fight nothing but casters. Tell me that a caster should get any buffs to bring melee down. There is no feasable manner to think it is necessary. YASP.

Mya... no.

<3 Маичка

I would despise fighting any evil savant cleric with this added into it. stop helping clerics!

edit: -more- than I already do!

I am not even going to pretend I know what this thread about. I mean I get the gist of it but....It hurts my head.

Mya is correct from a ROM code point of view. The only problem with this is FL has been balanced with this in mind and changing this seemingly small aspect would have huge consequences and require a lot of testing and tweaking.

In the end it would provide for a more realistic and perhaps better experience but this task is better suited for a new MUD as the end result wouldn't justify the work load.

Stop making this about Clerics. This is not about Clerics. Clerics need Hit/Dam for offensive power, which normally means sacrificing AC.

This is about balance. Having a AC suit that works the same vs a Warrior or versus a Bard.

If someone would benefit would be mages and Shamans, hit/dam rolless classes.

Frankly I am not against Warriors having a bonus to Hit roll (on score-sheet, no hidden stuff) to reflect their better combat proficiency. But frankly I think this is covered in Warcry/Berserk.

Personally I hate this kind of hidden modifiers.

Just like Shaman Mal spell level.

Or Invoker Manacharge stuff.

Why can't we have Spell levels displayed on Score.

Instead of us thinking that it's 50 + hidden modifier.

It's a game, let the player take conscious decisions, instead of having us take decisions based on faith/hearsay.

This mechanics secrets only breads elitism instead of skill.

Such as people not having the fainted idea how the saves system works, or what is the Cap for their saves.

Who knows has an huge advantage on who does not.

On ROM code. It's interesting. I read ROM 2 once or was it MERC 2 ? Anyway interesting stuff. Like a x10/11 damage cut if you were using a shield. ROM is comparable but quite different from FL code. Which in my humble Programmer view is chaotic. But that is the nature of the beast. Coded by different persons, with code on code.

Stuff that could be so much more powerful for a coder, is "hammered" in the code.

For example, Ogre HP on level bonus is linked to "OGRE" race. This could easily be a perk thing, what could be included in Ogre races and to anyone the IMMS see fit (RP thing, imagine a Zombie Regeneration).

PS: Don't start saying that I said that there is a Damage cut if you have a shield. I was clearly referring to ROM.

Or that I revealed some CODE secret because I said that Ogres have a HP bonus on level. Which everyone already knows.

As I told you. That part of the Code changed.

No way to provide reliable 100% code proof.

But it was there. And in my opinion from mud PK events Class distinction is still there.

Wtf are you talking about? If it changed, it certainly wasn't during this administration; every single change has been documented, and the stuff that hasn't been documented publicly has been documented on the IMM forums. This section of the MUD hasn't been touched in years, as far as I know, and I'm still paying for its hosting.

Seriously. Stop making stuff up based on how you 'feel'.

No need to be mad Raargant. This is my feeling. Something is different. (Not the classes thing, but with the chance to break AC based on hitroll. Before 2-4?? years ago you would hardly miss on MOBS AC with high Hitroll. Today you can miss on low chance.)

I naturally assumed that it was an intended code change. It can be some interference from other stuff changed in code. Maybe it's finally working as designed (??? roll natural 1 and miss???). I'm fine with it.

Anyway that is not important. I only referred it to say that I am sure what is in the AC code mechanics as it appeared to have changed to me.

What I really wanted to discuss is "Class" modifier factor in AC breaking. What is your opinion on this?

Mine is that, "Class" should not be a modifier on it, but mainly Hitroll.

I know, and I'm still paying for its hosting.

We know, and we Thank you, Raargant, for it.

It has to be about clerics, because clerics are the ONLY casting class that would worry about beating AC to hit

Unless you are a class with like 1 defence, that has ways to better their AC. Like .... lets say, a Transformed Werebeast ranger using Bark skin

even a transformed werebeast retains dodge, a defense superior to parry.

Also why wouldnt the ranger be stone skin, shield, armor, and flesh armoring too? I love the fact that a stark naked werebeast can have 300 ac.

Why wouldn't a warrior haver a better chance of penetrating uber armor than a cleric?