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Consumables curative balancing.

I think that grinding should be made to a minimum in order to keep a game fun. This is a major design objective on some games. It also should be on FL.

  • avoidance of grinding (no scumming)

Anti-grinding


Another basic design principle is avoidance of grinding (also known as

scumming). These are activities that have low risk, take a lot of time,

and bring some reward. This is bad for a game's design because it

encourages players to bore themselves. Even worse, it may be optimal to

do so. We try to avoid this!

This is true. Grinding is very boring. The very existence of grinding material every player feel the need to grind in order to achieve a benefit. In this case healing.

In FL Healing grinding also make other class healing skills have less value. Like someone signature says, when my Battlemage has a crap load of Cure Criticals it crushes the worth of a Atriction class like a Cleric.

So what can be done to prevent this:

  • Create a policy/objective stating that this should be avoided in FL design. This will encourage area builders to take this directive to heart when making future areas.
  • Set (quantify) an limit/objective to how much healing any class should get from consumables. (ex: 500 or 1000) This allows to maintain balance in this field, by having a set value to compare existing consumables, and to limit progression over this value. (ex value is 500 HP, then a certain staff of 10 cure criticals should become rare). This value can also be multi faceted, imposing a design limit to HP Item recovery per tic. (example 300 hp from consumables per tick. The said 10 cure critical would have to be made 20 charges of cure serious.) With this design tools/directives in hand we can pass on the more mechanical aspects of limiting them. Creating a cool down for curatives healing. For example a Rare scroll of x3 Heal, would have a cooldown. This can be made by putting a fourth spell on the scroll that blocks all healing for 1-2 hours. This would need someone to BITE a new thing on the code. Non rare curative items like the heart should be made scarcer, better (more HP) and harder to get. (and a cooldown) This reduces the time spent getting them, and forces players to risk something to get it. The scarcity can be achieved by making them nodrop/nouncurse. By making them very heavy, needing a special container to hold them. A container which is rare, and that has a limited #space inside it, and a 0% weight multiplier. Coding a shadow HP counter, that counts every Healing from items and that after it get to XYZ value it blocks healing. This would of course need the creation of a special healing spell for items, in order to not FURBAR healers healing groupmenbers. Hum.. perhaps a check for caster class and bypass if not Communer. In my view Mages should have the best access to healing items. Meeles should have a skills to grant some sort of last resort healing. Warriors - Berserk - 100HP, perhaps this should be changed. Removing healing from Berserk and placing it on another skills. My idea "To the Limit" -> 200+-50 HP. (or just old plain Fielddressing) Zerks - Rage - 300HP ??? Rangers - Herb Blademasters - Appucunture Ninjas - Appucunture Monks - Healing Thieves - Steal other classes curatives Wands should be the best healing items on the game. Followed by Scrolls and then Staves. Wands: Invoker,Necro,BMG,DK,Bard. Scrolls: Invoker,Necro,BMG,DK,Bard + Ninja,Thief,Paladin,Monk Staves: Invoker,Necro,BMG,Ninja,Ranger,Monk (Clerics out, because they have Cure crit) I don't know how to make with DK's. They surely should get gimped on healing, but it makes no sense that Rangers are not gimped on healing to. Sell healing in shops. Crap to middle healing, that cannot be hoarded in large scale, but can be used in a pinch by more inexperienced players. Finaly, items of healing that can be put inside a backpack on a massive scale should completely disappear. Balanced into a new item. The sort of Hearts and Red Potion of cure critical.

The scarcity can be achieved by making them nodrop/nouncurse.

By making them very heavy, needing a special container to hold them. A container which is rare, and that has a limited #space inside it, and a 0% weight multiplier.

Coding a shadow HP counter, that counts every Healing from items and that after it get to XYZ value it blocks healing. This would of course need the creation of a special healing spell for items, in order to not FURBAR healers healing groupmenbers. Hum.. perhaps a check for caster class and bypass if not Communer.

Finaly, items of healing that can be put inside a backpack on a massive scale should completely disappear. Balanced into a new item. The sort of Hearts and Red Potion of cure critical.

The amount of healing you should be able to receive should heavily weigh on class. I agree, So get rid of curatives and code it into the classes skills. IMHO. NO counters need, NO special backpacks needed, NO special spells added to a bunch of items. If you think a rangers herb is enough then its enough if not increase it, give warriors a field dressing, hell all these classes have healing skills already, just adjust the amount and cooldowns and balance it that way.

Like Mya said, all these curatives do is create grinding and in my opinion, detract from class balance dramatically. I got an ogre warrior to big nasty with my bard and he came back with 600 more hp than he left with in less than 30 seconds. Did the player take the time to grind all those curatives? sure, should they have a distinct advantage because of it that is not directly a result of their class or weapon selection? not in my opinion. Will i ever take the time to grind 50 hearts and potions so i can win fights, probably not... it detracts from why i play the game in the first place. Grinding is not as fun as RPing and PKing in a fantasy world that you can have an impact on. Most games today consist of: who did you gank today and what new trophy did you grind.

Not that any of your ideas are bad Mya, i just think its always best to code it into the class.

If you don't want certain races gaining as much hp from the same skill as others, then you can put a healing reduction on that race, for example ogre warrior vs human warrior. Ogres should probably take reduced healing due to their regeneration giant size and huge hp base, just some ideas.

Mya - You talk like it's so easy to get a PK-free hour to grab all these consumables. I think it has a lot to do with your play time - maybe less people, so you assume it's so easy to get consumables. I play any where between 9AM - 11PM EST and there's almost always some nemesis/anti-align/thief in PK who is going to make you use some of those consumables.

Plus! One consumable trip can cost over 100k if you're unlucky w/ haggle or unable to kill the merchant(s) easily. That means you have to spend time hoarding gold as well. And let's not forget about drug addiction if you don't take that perk...now you start burning through herbs, which if you can't preserve already crumble eventually.

It's not as simple as you make it sound.

Certain consumables need to be toned down.

A scroll that is FREE, no matter that it is rare and heals 300 hp in one go.

The heart I don't find OP. It is not easy to stockpile and it is easily burned. The staff is quite hard to stockpile as well, but once again, a scroll that heals 300 HP is just too much.

I disagree w/ you too Foxx. When it comes to rares in this game, evils get the better selection of damage-dealing weapons/armor. That one scroll is a small price to pay for a lot of nasty weapons that goodies can't touch.

Plus! One consumable trip can cost over 100k if you're unlucky w/ haggle or unable to kill the merchant(s) easily. That means you have to spend time hoarding gold as well. And let's not forget about drug addiction if you don't take that perk...now you start burning through herbs' date=' which if you can't preserve already crumble eventually.[/quote']

This is why I say change them.

Make the low ones more powerfull so that you do not need to farm so much of them. Make also sure that you cannot have more than y in your inventory.

F0xx, that scroll is good, but not over the top. It's healing ability is on par with meeles healing abilities. I have zero problems with them as long as you cannot recite four of them in a row. There should be a cool down to that scroll.

Also it's rare, so no more than 4 of those, subject to avaiability and the request penalty.

As Drakken I carried 3-4 of those scrolls at once 90% of the time.

I disagree w/ you too Foxx. When it comes to rares in this game' date=' evils get the better selection of damage-dealing weapons/armor. That one scroll is a small price to pay for a lot of nasty weapons that goodies can't touch.[/quote']

A lot is quite an overestimation. Also goodies have a huge advantage - request.

Small price to pay? 300 HP healed in 1 second is not a small price at all.

I was arguing with Anume recently about the huge price of the healing herb in shire, something that can simply rot. She said they are that expensive because if they were not people would stockpile on them.

Also, I am not discussing the fact that it is available only to goodies, but more like the fact that it exists.

And Mya dear, I am certain that you have no problem with it. After all, melees can't use scrolls

As Drakken I carried 3-4 of those scrolls at once 90% of the time. Yeah, this is a goodie treat. The evils have thier own neet stuff. Monks... :eek: 3-4... Watch Out.

Considering all the things I did for curatives as Drakken it really got to a point where it was borderline unfair

Small price to pay? 300 HP healed in 1 second is not a small price at all.

How is this different from Herb, Appuncunture, Healing, FieldDressing.

I also have zero problems with people having 4 of those scrolls. They can be stolen or PKed for. And it limits Rare inventory Selection. Short of a Invocker/Monk few classes can have the luxury of carring four of those. A battlemage for example, needs to carry both a Magical and Phsicial weapon cuthing that value to two.

What I have problem is being able to recite 2 of those scrolls in 1 round time and getting 600 HP in a flash.

They need a cool down to balance them.

It does not matter how expensive an herb is. Some players have a ton of gold and most of them kill the merchant after the transaction for a full refund. Also people will befriend a thief or ninja and get their stuff preserved. My pont is the healing herbs are probably still being stockpiled.

How is this different from Herb, Appuncunture, Healing, FieldDressing.

these are class specific skills bound to a cooldown, thats how. bind 4 of these to a button and viola you just gained 1200 hp by pusing f4. your faerie just made a dwarfs hp look like a snail in the sewers.

2 suggestions -

-Make the curative items weigh like 15 lbs each. Even in a backpack the weight would add up quickly. This would of course be more advantageous to higher str races(mainly melees since c/c's usually have some sort of healing ability.)

-or-

-Make it so that curative items cannot be placed in any backpacks/sacks at all. This would of course be more advantageous to higher dex races(mainly casters and rogues since most melees have decent hp to start with.)

-Make it so that curative items cannot be placed in any backpacks/sacks at all.

Like the venom sacks!

... them kill the merchant after the transaction for a full refund.

Heh, you try that

Some classes work via attrition, some do definitely not.

I think the problem is more a balance thing when classes that are not meant to heal get the ability to heal their hp once over completely via consumables.

I'm glad that has changed. That's what defkkoman used to do. Buy 100 healing leaves, preserve them all, then rip the halfling a new one for all my gold back.

I didn't know this was different since my current is lawful and wouldn't try that

Heh, you try that

Some classes work via attrition, some do definitely not.

I think the problem is more a balance thing when classes that are not meant to heal get the ability to heal their hp once over completely via consumables.

this is all we're really trying to get at. Thank you for listening and responding.