KRins Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 This game is the pinnacle of fantasy and frustration. Which is why I'm bummed and psyched to be done with it. It was great while it lasted, but the learning curve is too steep, the regular classes all lack anything to really get me excited, and I suck way too bad to get any Qstuff apparently. Days of play time for a really well trained 30 in a class I really don't want just strikes me as a waste for everyone, me, players who interact with me now that my char's RP is half arsed and jaded, the IMMs who will just hear me complain even though I know there are standards to be maintained. I guess I just need guaranteed rewards or at least %age based rewards to feel secure in getting them at some point. BLESS everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagesofSin Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Let's take this criticism constructively: What can be done so that new players like Krins want try out this MUD and keep up with it? My opinion is that in this day and age MUDs are second rate entertainment. Fl, and MUDs in general, need to offer something that maintstream games don't. A learning cruve as steep as Mt Everest isn't one of those things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Criminal Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 What questions we need answered are: 1. "Why in your opinion is the learning curve too steep." 2. "What classes are lacking?" Give examples/ideas for each. 3. "Why did you play a class you didnt want to 30?" 4. "What kinds of rewards do 'you' need and for what?" Mabey others feel the same way, explain a bit. UC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBwillie Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Mabey so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archgold Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 i feel you Krins. It's the same for me, FL's become boring in a way. It lacks the splendor it used to have. It used to be for me that making a new character, training it, getting it to pinn and then rping and pking were the best things ever. Then new armor and decked stuff was cool too. But lately just playing the game seems to have become a chore.......in order to quench my addiction;) ....having pinns is frustrating in the same way, joining cabals was fun but now its lost that amazing attraction it used to have. maybe it's just me but I feel that FL has become repetition: a mix of pking and getting pked with some rp and some venting thrown in the mix now you can argue with me that it's because I don't have a character at pinn, but that's not necessarily true because I've had one not too long ago and just logging on everyday was annoying enough (mind you I'm not saying the mud isn't fun or anything) but at pinn you basically fight off bounty hunters, super decked melee/mages/communers, thieves stealing your stuff, ninjas trying to assassinate you or beat up a lot of people. But as I'm writing this it might just be I feel FL has lost its RP? and no I'm not talking about the inherent characteristics of RP that is supposed to be enforced but people like Korthian who made KBS and Martineius who offered that prospective challenge and goal to beat. Yet they've all done it in a very fair way that couldn't be complained about being cheap until they actually made it last (but that's another thing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahlos Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 See ya back soon kRins! FL is never boring for me. I love every second of it, from sitting in a room for 2 hours doing nothing but drink milk and spam who pk and where, to being involved in heavy cabal warfare. FL is only fun if you make it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tantangel Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 I think it really depends on the character you have. My first pinn back was really fun for about two weeks and then I kind of puttered out and then back on for about a month and now I have a hard time logging him on. Second pinn is something I'd never played before passed lvl 30 and enjoyed him a lot more. Hell, I'm not even that great at PK with my newly found foreign classes, but definitely find it easy to manage to survive it. Hell, sometimes the most fun is just doing exactly what Kahlos said about sitting around and doing nothing but drinking milk and where/who pk every few moments. The game isn't just PK like a lot of people seem to think it is, it's what you make it out to be. If you want to PK you can PK as well as RP but if you don't want to PK you don't have to. If someone comes to attack you, you can very easily get away from them and go somewhere else. The ONLY time you ever have to is when you're in a Cabal and you're defending your Cabal, but that was your choice to join them in the first place. Hell, Herald is at a lack of members of late, if you just want to RP, join them, they're not a complete joke that people make them out to be. Note to all is a very powerful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-A Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 OMFG - stop you damned whinging (or is that whining?) becuase my ears are about to bleed. Suck it up and HARDEN UP PRINCESS. Here's a tip - if you really want it, sit with your char until you get it. Keep asking what you can do and improving or reroll and do it again better. Accept you have to get it right and it takes time and learning to do it. Don't come here looking for sympathy - I've just taken my third death today on a class where I have had to fight pinnacles for my last 5 ranks. I'm not lvl 50 yet, I'm being killed by caballed chars who ignore vendetta's because they see my unpinnacled easy target walk by. Do you see me here complaining?No. I keep my character going knowing that the phrase 'and hell followed with him' is exactly is what I'll see done when I finally get to lvl 50 and can devote my entire play time to hunting down these t*rds. My point is that everyone - not just newbies - has to pay their dues. Everyone has their sh!t days and most of all everyone gets what they have coming. If that means you have to bide your time today then so be it. If you play the game for fun and treat rewards as bonuses then you'll have a great deal more fun along the way. You'll also find its a lot easier to get the qraces and class this way. L-A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahlos Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 lol L-A. Your post reminded me of that log of Rhivaan v Human Healer from the old forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-A Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 lol L-A. Your post reminded me of that log of Rhivaan v Human Healer from the old forums. LOL - I read that log on my PC the other day. Right now I feel about that good at PK again. :mad: L-A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-A Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 lol L-A. Your post reminded me of that log of Rhivaan v Human Healer from the old forums. LOL - I read that log on my PC the other day. Right now I feel about that good at PK again. :mad: L-A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deykari Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 I used to play Unreal Tournament 2003 religiously before I started playing here. FPS games are definitely my forté - managed to sit at 1st place in a prestigious UK ladder tournament in UT 2003. Computer ended up getting ballsed up, so armed with a slow PC and a 56k internet connection I came here. And I have sucked for a while now. With a game like this, there is so much more to consider than a most FPS games, and the learning curve is steep. That's what kept me here - I have a highly competitive nature, and the fact that I went from being a decent player in one type of game, to a playing getting owned consistently, grabbed me enough that I've been playing since. - I -love- the fact there is a steep learning curve, because it's a real challenge. A challenge that doesn't come without it's rewards, because looking at things solely from a PK point of view, I get tons more satisfaction out of knowing that I've spent a good deal of time trying to improve (and knowing that I have improved a lot) and yet it still remains a huge challenge. Finally taking down some beast of a PKer is much more satisfying than just knocking up your frag count against the masses. One of the things that most people get their gratification from in games, especially online games, is when they win. It's easy to get this gratification in a commercial game played by thousands of players of varying skill levels. In FL, we have a MUCH smaller core playerbase, and so the elite stand out a lot more. Furthmore, in say, an FPS the price of losing isn't usually that bad. Here, you have a character that you build and grow with over time, that you grow attached to. Loss in FL can be devastating (compared to loss in your typical FPS) because you know you may have to spend a lot of time building yourself back up and finding your feet. Is it frustrating to spend a week decking yourself out to go and lose it because you made a damn stupid mistake? Of course it is. But for the whole, you know deep down this frustration is only temporary (provided you make no rash decisions whilst angry ) because the satisfaction that comes otherwise playing out a character that you've gotten so deeply involved with far surpasses the satisfaction that comes with playing most other types of game, IMO. Back to the above equipment example, the fact that the price of loss can be that great is what I think helps a lot to absorb you and involve you with the character. Heck, and I'm still just talking about PK here - I haven't even touched on RP yet. I appreciate I've rambled on here and I don't expect anybody to read all that. I'm just rambling on, on a Monday morning. It sounds to me (and I could be wrong of course) that something has happened IG that's pissed you off a bit. Take a bit of time out and see if you want to play here still (and I think you will). As far as PK goes, it's hard, and it will take time (considerably less time if you use time correctly.. some people have gotten frighteningly good, frighteningly fast) but you'll reap the rewards with persistance. This place isn't an environment for everyone, I'll admit - it's brutal. It's what keeps me coming back though. Dey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 You want a direct step into making the mud better? Remove clans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuntun Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 You want a direct step into making the mud better? Remove clans. why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Criminal Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 You want a direct step into making the mud better? Remove clans. You cant just throw something at people like this, you need a real explanation as to why. Does everyone hate them? What do they provoke? Do they bring nothing to the table, and give examples and await feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuntun Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Honestly, I think clans are one of the few environments where people openly RP. You know everyone in your clan has the same ideals, for the most part. Well at least its the only place I feel like I'm not Rping to a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-D&Der Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 If you find it frustrating play something easier and don't spend a lot of time training, like a human cleric. No experience penalty, you can heal, create food and water, identify to your heart's content. Or play a human thief and just hide and steal. Set up traps to annoy people. Or play a ninja. When you get the hang of a class or two, then go for training, cabals, power combos, etc. I don't know how new you are but going for a PK powerhouse early on is a sure path to frustration. One other possibility is to make a character with an RP that you really believe in and care about. Then you won't want to quit if you take deaths--it will only increase your resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 why? I knew that was coming, that is a very long subject tho, I was hoping people would get what I mean...but anyway... What are clans at this moment? A pool from which cabals should be recruiting members. At the certain moment, this does not happen unless one is at his pinnacle. One has to spend quite a huge time in this certain clan, do quests, hope he is in the same time zone as the chosen cabal's immortal and so on. Basicly, he has to spend quite some time in this clan to get noticed by the cabal's immortal and right after he impresses the immortal in some way, right after that he can apply to enter the cabal, where he has to spend again quite some time till he actually get to a position in which it becomes interesting... and that again depends very much whether one is online at the same time when the cabal's immortal is. There is only one immortal who is really active (in my timezone) so that makes it basicly almost impossible for me to get into a cabal and I am sure that it is the same way for others, not even to mention new players.... The way it is now, it is way too difficult to get into a cabal.... Why not make it easer to get in and harder to stay than the other way? One of the problems of this game is that it has a community which jealously keeps its secrets...which is good for them but not good for the game itself as new people don't see a reason to stay as it is VERY hard for them to learn anything at all... even the most basic things. Skills cannot be discussed, items cannot be discussed, spells cannot be discussed...same goes for cabal skills and spells...and when one actually tries to enter a cabal he finds it is not easy at all...not to talk about quest races/classes... Everyone says: "If you want to learn something, try it yourself"....some people do not have the time to fully rank and train a cleric just to find when they reach 50 that their DI sux...it just crushes one's will and desire to play and try again when he knows that his next char at 50 can face the same problem... So back on topic? Why remove clans? Short answer - to make things more interesting. That is at least the smallest change that I see will have *some* effect to make newer people stay....at least I know that is what made me stay years ago back when Despiser killed my invoker many times and created a 200k XP hole (don't ask how) with me being at level 48, the thrill of being in a cabal for a first time is even bigger than the anger and desire to delete when someone crushes you, full loots you, multi kills you over and over. And I know that same thrill of being in a cabal is what made me come back after a 4 year break just to find out that I have to spend tons of time in some smelly clan that give the false sense of community, then again spend tons of time as I and M till I anger delete because of some stupid death and a fool loot... Where are the huge battles between SAVANT and WARMASTER? Where are the huge battles between KNIGHT and NEXUS? Nowadays one has to be really lucky to find more than 2 members of the same cabal online...not to talk about big battles...clans being a pool which makes recruiting easier? Oh please... clans make it impossible for new players to enter a cabal... As the saying goes "The rich get richer, the poor get poorer (and eventually quit)". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest emp_newb Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Foxx, you seem to be someone who is not getting what they think they deserve, because clans are actually a good idea, it forces people to dedicate themselves to one group, and they gain promotions in light of what they have done for the clan, which would make the leaders/cabaled chars of that clan notice that this char is overall a more effective addition as opposed to this char, it eliminates those chars that get one or two lucky kills or one rp session and they get into a cabal. I see no reason why. Also, you are saying, from me reading between the lines, that we should dumb the game down for players who play less often? So we should fully explain everything about the game and take away the mystery? I say most of the fun is fighting someone, and not knowing the skills they are going to throw at you. I personally love having the special stuff edited, because it makes you want to work hard. And if you want to expirement and see if a cleric has a "good" DI or not. Make a human, rush to pinn(as a cleric it is nearly impossible to not get a group) get DI cast it. If you like it, train, if you don't, delete. Also, Despiser could not have multi killed you and created a 200k hole unless you where an outlaw when he was a justice elf voker, even then, if you cannot deal with it, obey the law. And I promise you, there are damn near ALWAYS imms on, just because they are not vis to you is not the topic here. There will nearly always be an imm about. You say it is to hard to get into a cabal, maybe you should read up on cabals, find out what they are all about, and start rping something that would fit in nicely. Not just roll a char and sign up for a clan. If your rp is I am just a creature, of course you will get less spotlight than if you had some crazy wacked out rp (see Wymsicant). Bottom line is this game is the same as all games, newbies are of course going to be alot worse than vets, that is how the world is, to say that we should limit the depth this game has because some people do not fit with it makes about as much sense as Deykari losing a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-D&Der Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Well, Despiser's gone, or at least he doesn't play morts any more. Is anyone giving you an exp hole now? And I think your attitude about figuring things out is misplaced. You seem to think that the power combos should be pretty much there for the taking, when in principle every combo is there to be played. If you want a strong PK combination, then you have to experiment. Playing something that isn't so strong isn't a waste of time, if you choose something you enjoy or choose it as a learning experience. I think your comments about clans are somewhat thoughtful, although I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aulian Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Everything Everything he just said is spot on. If you find it frustrating play something easier and don't spend a lot of time training' date=' like a human cleric. No experience penalty, you can heal, create food and water, identify to your heart's content. Or play a human thief and just hide and steal. Set up traps to annoy people. Or play a ninja. When you get the hang of a class or two, then go for training, cabals, power combos, etc. I don't know how new you are but going for a PK powerhouse early on is a sure path to frustration. One other possibility is to make a character with an RP that you really believe in and care about. Then you won't want to quit if you take deaths--it will only increase your resolve.[/quote'] I agree completely, I started with an elf paladin.. And yeah, that was hard as hell... Start with something easy and that will help a million, you have no idea how much it will help starting with something you can survive with if you are new. Foxx' date=' you seem to be someone who is not getting what they think they deserve, because clans are actually a good idea, it forces people to dedicate themselves to one group, and they gain promotions in light of what they have done for the clan, which would make the leaders/cabaled chars of that clan notice that this char is overall a more effective addition as opposed to this char, it eliminates those chars that get one or two lucky kills or one rp session and they get into a cabal. I see no reason why.[/quote'] The clan system is a very good idea. It groups people so that those who matter can WATCH you trying to get into the cabal. CAn you imagine how much LESS the immortal would notice you if you WERENT in a clan that has a label saying "SOMEONE WATCH ME" strapped to your god damn forehead? Think about it As for pre-pinn induction? There is nothing to say you should/shouldn't join a clan pre-pinn. But hey it just cuts out some of the time later. The reason I can see why immortals do not USSUALLY allow/like pre-pinn induction is this: A cabal filled with 50's vs a cabal filled with 30's will = that younger cabal NEVER getting a chance to RANK/ GET GEAR / SURVIVE. I can tell you now, if I was in a cabal and someone came into my pk range when I was at 50 and they were at 42 I would show no mercy. Its a cabal war. I will kill you, you will unghost and I will kill you again. If you cant handle it, leave your cabal Just because the immortals are not allowing you in early dont think you are hard done by. Believe it or not there is OFTEN A GOOD REASON WHEN THEY DO SOMETHING.:eek: On a last note, I want to see L's of clan and L's of the cabal have ALOT more sway. I can remember the limitations when I was L a couple of times of a so called player run cabal ([just putting it out there, no flame intended]). Leaders need to be able to have more of an influence on induction and so forth. my 1 1/2 cents. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aulian Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Skills cannot be discussed, items cannot be discussed, spells cannot be discussed...same goes for cabal skills and spells...and when one actually tries to enter a cabal he finds it is not easy at all...not to talk about quest races/classes... Everyone says: "If you want to learn something, try it yourself"....some people do not have the time to fully rank and train a cleric just to find when they reach 50 that their DI sux...it just crushes one's will and desire to play and try again when he knows that his next char at 50 can face the same problem... So back on topic? Why remove clans? Short answer - to make things more interesting. That is at least the smallest change that I see will have *some* effect to make newer people stay....at least I know that is what made me stay years ago back when Despiser killed my invoker many times and created a 200k XP hole (don't ask how) with me being at level 48, the thrill of being in a cabal for a first time is even bigger than the anger and desire to delete when someone crushes you, full loots you, multi kills you over and over. And I know that same thrill of being in a cabal is what made me come back after a 4 year break just to find out that I have to spend tons of time in some smelly clan that give the false sense of community, then again spend tons of time as I and M till I anger delete because of some stupid death and a fool loot... Where are the huge battles between SAVANT and WARMASTER? Where are the huge battles between KNIGHT and NEXUS? Nowadays one has to be really lucky to find more than 2 members of the same cabal online...not to talk about big battles...clans being a pool which makes recruiting easier? Oh please... clans make it impossible for new players to enter a cabal... As the saying goes "The rich get richer, the poor get poorer (and eventually quit)". Ok... So firstly.. Its only CERTAIN spells that we are not allowed to discuss.. Oh I dont know like.. 3 qclasses, the q races and malform, DI and mana charge are ALL that come to mind. Want to learn about those skills? Earn the knowledge. You can ask on the forums about 90% of the skills in the game, not to mention if you had to ask on the forums how one class would take another I can guarantee you the player base would give you hints if not just tell you outright how to do it. Clans bad for newbies? Are you kidding me? Common, anyone who was in a clan with Dulanain and Ghadryn stand there and tell me I did not teach you something about the mechanics/equipment/your class/class tactics when you were in my clan. Clans = newbie friendly help. Need a hand, clan will help. Need eq? Clan will help. Without a clan and a newbie? You are screwed. No one will stop to help you besides VERY VERY FEW. Massive cabal wars? Ah have you any idea how the size of the pbase has changed in the last four years? It shrunk and now is slowly growing again. There are often big cabal wars. I can easily recall 6-3 tribbies on 3 watchers.. And it was fun. It does happen, just not as much due to PBASE size these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 I am not going to argue with you guys, that is just my opinion. Immortals can watch over you even if you are I in a cabal. It is a just a different feeling actually being in a cabal than in clan.... recently I saw someone from Nexus telling to someone in Despair "Go kill this guy and bring me his EQ if you want to gain my support". That was not even the immortal. I do not know if this is right but somehow I don't feel it is... I know how vets feel about revealing some of the secrets, I am not saying it is a good thing and that it should be done, but I know that with making cabals easier to accept people in (up to I and M) will make things most interesting. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim_Reefer Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 I didn't read any of these posts, but FL RULES! WOOO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valganti Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 I am not going to argue with you guys, that is just my opinion. Immortals can watch over you even if you are I in a cabal. It is a just a different feeling actually being in a cabal than in clan.... recently I saw someone from Nexus telling to someone in Despair "Go kill this guy and bring me his EQ if you want to gain my support". That was not even the immortal. I do not know if this is right but somehow I don't feel it is... I know how vets feel about revealing some of the secrets, I am not saying it is a good thing and that it should be done, but I know that with making cabals easier to accept people in (up to I and M) will make things most interesting. Just my 2 cents. Tribunal has a set standard of objectives a character has to do to get in. Anyone with any work ethic will be given a chance. Savant followed suit. Knight is very lenient as well if you can stand the RP of Raar. Watcher is very simple if you have the balls to fight and die, or win. There are four cabals, not mentioning herald, that have very basic standards to get in, and none of them revolve around pk prowess or any form of knowledge. Now, not to say people will be promoted to T in these cabals, because that comes with strict RP from the character. All cabals are easy to get in, it's going somewhere in that cabal that takes skill, RP and character development and dedication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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