For everyone who continues to complain about path....

[L-A]

With all the posts about clerics being too strong, path hurting too much, something being wrong with path etc I've extracted the following from logs of mine taken over the last week. I put the actual hp damage below for clarity:

Cleric #1 - has 3 ranks on me:

I am unsanc'd, do not have protection evil but make the save:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Cleric #1's evil aura MANGLES you!

96hp worth of damage.

Again, unsanc'd, no protection evil and do not make the save:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Some other bad effect from path.

Cleric#1's evil aura === DISINTEGRATES === you!

181hp worth of damage

This one is with sanctuary, no protection evil and failing the save for damage:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Cleric #1's evil aura MANGLES you!

86hp worth of damage.

Again, sanc'd, no protection and failing the save:

Some other bad effect from path.

Cleric#1's evil aura MANGLES you!

83hp worth of damage

This one is sanc, no protection and failing the save for damage:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Cleric #1's evil aura MANGLES you!

82hp worth of damage

For consistency, here is Cleric #2 - who has 2 ranks on me:

Sanctuary up, no protection evil, failing the save:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

A bad path effect.

Cleric#2's evil aura MANGLES you!

81hp worth of damage.

Sanc, no protection and making the save:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Cleric #2's evil aura MUTILATES you!

40hp worth of damage

Sanc' no protection and failing the save:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

A bad path effect.

Cleric#2's evil aura MANGLES you!

84hp worth of damage.

Again - sanc, no protection, failing the save:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Cleric #2's evil aura MANGLES you!

84hp worth of damage.

The amount damage is very constant - all paths do almost the exact same amount once sanc's and saves are considered.

Had I:

a) Been of equal rank

Had -30 or -40sva instead of -1svs

I would have saved almost every time - which is about 40hp per cast.

If you calculate the damage reduce for prtection evil then the damage goes below 30hp a cast.

IMHO this should close the book on any further comments of 'path is too strong, I can't save vs it, clerics are overpowered!!!"

Get some saves, get sanctuary, get protection evil and laugh at the damage path cannot deal to you.

My rule is simple - if I am a warrior I need to deal maims and MUTILATES per hit to clerics. A warrior can easily achieve this with -40sva in a non-super rare suit. The trick is:

a) Weapon choice + dirt: You need to know which weapons shield block defends the least against and use them. Do it by dualing different types vs clerics and examing logs.

Good quality weapons - average damage on weapons counts for a lot when it comes down to it. Avg 28 vs Avg 22 mightn't sound like a lot but it adds up fast.

Under these conditions you will find that clerics are put on the back foot - meaning their mana will be split 70/30 or worse into heal/cast. Less casts means less damage to you - and more damage to them since you're chasing them and dealing damage.

This should help all the melee's out there looking to cut down clerics.

L-A

[Evangelion]

Path's damage is not based solely on level and saves. You can't omit that from your calculations.

[L-A]

Path's damage is not based solely on level and saves. You can't omit that from your calculations.

You can play that tune all you like - I've got 9 casts above showing that its pretty constant.

I will say that Cleric #1 has been around long and has more kills than Cleric #2. So you can see the modifier of kills isn't all that great.

L-A

[Evangelion]

You obviously never fought Durimar or Suunmar.

[L-A]

You mean like this:

Sanc, saved, no protection.

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Durimar's evil aura maims you!

35hp worth of damage.

Sanc, saved, no protection.

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Durimar's evil aura MUTILATES you!

38hp worth of damage.

Sanc, saved, no protection.

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Durimar's evil aura maims you!

34hp worth of damage.

No sanc, saved, no protection.

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Durimar's evil aura MASSACRES you!

69hp worth of damage.

Sanc, saved, no protection.

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Durimar's evil aura maims you!

36hp worth of damage.

Looks pretty in line with my above post to me.

L-A

EDIT - both Durimar and myself are lvl 50 here.

[f0xx]

Sorry to go offtopic, but how do you know if you saved it or not? Does it say it anywhere?

[Kyzarius]

Its not the damage its the ability to spam a single spell and apply a multitude of effects WHILE still doing damage.

Though I dont think they are too strong mind you.

A cleric just has to select the proper defence for their opponent, spell-turning or steel wall, and then can really just sit there spamming one spell till they need to flee and recover. An effective cleric will spell you down first, but truthfully a cleric who just puts up def then spams path can do just as well against most of the player base. Mainly because most of the player base doesnt know eq well enough to effectivly put up good saves.

I mean really, they can literally just spam path over and over and shut down an opponent with damage AND lay on some bad mal's all with the same command. This makes clerics challenging but, to be honest, though this ability does give them some kind of advantage over many, it fails miserably against those that know how to handle it...carry curatives...and have good saves in the right area.

[L-A]

Sorry to go offtopic' date=' but how do you know if you saved it or not? Does it say it anywhere?[/quote']

Sometimes due to damage taken, sometimes due to the text.

For example:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Some other bad effect from path.

Cleric#1's evil aura === DISINTEGRATES === you!

As soon as you see the 'Some other bad effect from path' you know you didn't make the save. Path rolls vs afflictive and if you save, it wil not roll for the malediction. As soon as you seen teh malediction text (either land or fail) you know you didn't make your afflictive save.

Othertimes you have to work it out based on damage:

Unsanc'd, no protection, made the save:

The vile taint of evil begins to suffocate your soul.

Cleric #1's evil aura MANGLES you!

We already know the max is a ===DIS=== THis is only a MANGLE, about 50%. When you save vs path (as with more afflictive spells, ice spells and fireball being the most obvious exceptions) if you make the save you take half damage. With no form or damage prevention (sanc or protection) I've taken half the damage - qed - I made the save.

Once you've encountered the spell a few times you'll get used to being able to tell which it is.

L-A

[archgold]

wow you know....what class and race and align are you playing?

because the last time I didn't have trouble with an evil cleric was w/ my neutral halfling ranger.....they did about decimates to mutilates through sanc but I might have had about -35 aff plus magic resistant and about -10 svs or more. But with another pinn just recently deleted neutral slith blm I have taken up to demolishes w/ nearly -50 aff (including svs) w/ sanc. Most were around mangles and massacres and given lvl we're the same lvl both 50th. Armor? he might have better armor then me but I'm not that badly dressed, can you call moonstone pendants, and banner/rings of accuracy and a few other stuff blm can wear bad armor?

and to focus on path as the one thing that makes a cleric "overpowered" is ridiculous, perhaps you don't know but minister lags for 4 rounds that's double the lag a FG zerk/warrior does and that's a consistent 4 rounds per hour. And to say that it's hard to land isn't true, it might take a few tries but there's no way you cannot land it once.....unless you're just really bad at the class.

second thing to mention is that.....in the log you posted L-A you do realize that if that was the total rounds of combat without you healing....the cleric has taken off about 500 hp from you right? most classes aside from your giants and dwarves have at most 700 - 800 and some more. 500 dmg is alot for just four rounds of combat, half of the time a melee is not going to be dealing out that kind of dmg at pinn against a decently dressed cleric. maybe you'll take off three hundred but then the cleric runs around and waits for the hour to hit while healing up and come path you some more. at a rate of 500 dmg per 4 rounds plus with the fact you're ministered and can't heal.....half the time you'll find yourself stuck at big and nasty or pretty hurt with minister on the hour and the cleric coming back to path you and he's at quite a few wounds or better.

I'm not saying that you're wrong L-A but it's quite obvious you can't just say clerics are overpowered because of path....you need to take into consideration path, minister, and their healing.....

[Mmm Coffee]

I think the only thing overpowered about minister is that it stops mana regen. Possibly moves too, but mana is the big one. A spell that lags as long as it does given the clerics ability to spam one spell for multiple effects, should not affect mana regen or should not last as long as it does. Four hours for sermon is plenty (Read: That's a farking lot of time to spam path if a cleric can OMG - actually chase people).

-Mmm Beer

[Guest emp_newb]

Another thing to take into account, is path is never the same, since it is based on your kills. So if you are fighting a cleric who has insane amounts of pks, of course his path will need higher saves, vs a cleric who just got path.

[L-A]

wow you know....what class and race and align are you playing?

Vs clerics #1 and #2? Evil, non-magic resistant.

because the last time I didn't have trouble with an evil cleric was w/ my neutral halfling ranger.....they did about decimates to mutilates through sanc but I might have had about -35 aff plus magic resistant and about -10 svs or more.

With that many saves you will save almost every time. Add to that sanctuary and you're getting about the same damage as in my logs where I have saves/sanc but no protection. Proves my case.

But with another pinn just recently deleted neutral slith blm I have taken up to demolishes w/ nearly -50 aff (including svs) w/ sanc.

Got a log? I will believe it when I see it. The only times I've taken **DEMO** through sanc is with an ogre - but that is to be expected.

Can you call moonstone pendants' date=' and banner/rings of accuracy and a few other stuff blm can wear bad armor?[/quote']

Out of those three things, only moonstones give you -sva.

and to focus on path as the one thing that makes a cleric "overpowered" is ridiculous' date=' perhaps you don't know but minister lags for 4 rounds that's double the lag a FG zerk/warrior does and that's a consistent 4 rounds per hour. And to say that it's hard to land isn't true, it might take a few tries but there's no way you cannot land it once.....unless you're just really bad at the class.[/quote']

I'm not focusing on path making clerics overpowered - my contention is that path is not nearly as strong as people are making it out to be. People who say 'Path does a ***DEMO*** to me through sanc/saves and I'm not an ogre' are just plain wrong.

second thing to mention is that.....in the log you posted L-A you do realize that if that was the total rounds of combat without you healing....the cleric has taken off about 500 hp from you right?

That would be because I don't have the necessary protection/saves to fight a cleric. It is not the game's fault I'm getting my @$$ kicked - its my fault for not being ready.

most classes aside from your giants and dwarves have at most 700 - 800 and some more.

Really? I have played and see others play humans/avian/drow/elf/halfer melee's to lvl 50 and they usually have between 850 - 900hp. Add 100hp for berserk.

500 dmg is alot for just four rounds of combat

Let's get the figure right - look at the first log: 40hp of damage wtih saves/sanc. 40 * 5 = 200hp damage from 5 rounds from path.

half of the time a melee is not going to be dealing out that kind of dmg at pinn against a decently dressed cleric.

If you're melee isn't dealing 3 - 5 MUTILATES ie 120 - 200hp a round to a cleric then you are doing something wrong. In this case, its not the games fault you are getting your @$$ kicked - its your fault. Go and get the proper eq before you fight clerics.

maybe you'll take off three hundred but then the cleric runs around and waits for the hour to hit while healing up and come path you some more.

Yes, I'll take off 300hp in 1.5 rounds. Stay for four rounds and you'll see 600 - 800hp disappear. How much healing do you think that is? Every time you catch up and hit him is extra damage that he has to heal. This is EXACTLY where you want a cleric to be - on the back foot, worrying about healing not about casting spells on you.

the fact you're ministered and can't heal.....half the time you'll find yourself stuck at big and nasty or pretty hurt with minister on the hour and the cleric coming back to path you and he's at quite a few wounds or better.

If you're that scared of minister just run the other way when he flees. By the time he heals and comes looking you'll be long gone even with the lag of minister.

I'm not saying that you're wrong L-A but it's quite obvious you can't just say clerics are overpowered because of path....you need to take into consideration path' date=' minister, and their healing.....[/quote']

I don't think path makes them overpowered - but aside from steel wall - its about the only option they have to deal damage to a melee. Once you start to cut back its damage wtih saves/sanc/protection you'll find your fear of clerics will become a thing of the past and they will be, as Myrek puts it, the breakfast of champions.

The point of this thread wasn't to get into damage dealing or minister - I just wanted to show that path isn't something is so hard to fight. A lot of players seem to think clerics walk over melee's. I'm simply demonstrating that they should not.

Cheers,

L-A

[L-A]

Emp newb: I think that was the point of me posting the Durimar log. There isn't anything insane about the damage he was dealing and Evengelion seemed to think he had a lot of kills.... No idea of his PK record personally.

L-A

[Guest emp_newb]

I did not say insane damage lol, I said insane amounts of PK's. Path gets stronger based on pks, durimar had a decent amount of pks from my recollection, so his would have been stronger than say, my old clerics who had a par/sub par average on pks.

[L-A]

I did not say insane damage lol' date=' I said insane amounts of PK's. Path gets stronger based on pks, durimar had a decent amount of pks from my recollection, so his would have been stronger than say, my old clerics who had a par/sub par average on pks.[/quote']

Even with his 'decent amout of PKs' he wasn't really tearing me up with his path..... That was my point. ;-)

L-A

[archgold]

Let's get the figure right - look at the first log: 40hp of damage wtih saves/sanc. 40 * 5 = 200hp damage from 5 rounds from path.

uhh please look again.....your first log shows 80 some dmg then 181 hp gone and two/three more 80's how did all that become 40 hp per round?

although I don't have a log of demo's thru sanc and saves I'll have one in a few days once i get my current char to pinn then we'll talk some more...

[archgold]

and second....you're missing the point of path....most people usually get dispelled on the hour that sermon hits and then get pathed for four rounds to death.

[L-A]

Let's get the figure right - look at the first log: 40hp of damage wtih saves/sanc. 40 * 5 = 200hp damage from 5 rounds from path.

uhh please look again.....your first log shows 80 some dmg then 181 hp gone and two/three more 80's how did all that become 40 hp per round?

Umm - why do you want to talk about the damage when I either to not have sanc or do not have saves? As I said - I get my @$$ kicked because I didn't have the necessary equipment on me.

Go down the first post - find the sole cast where I have sanc and save: 40hp worth of damage.

I see no point in talking about damage that is done when one person isn't prepared. Its akin to comparing it to the damage a fg with dual fire weapons will do to unsanc'd cleric while they lag them to death because of no prot shield.....

although I don't have a log of demo's thru sanc and saves I'll have one in a few days once i get my current char to pinn then we'll talk some more...

Looking forward to it.

L-A

[archgold]

well unless luck has something to do with succeeding the save.....then I'll take back all my posts. cuz my luck was like 2/3 bars up

[CruelEdict]

We can settle this easily. I will roll a Cleric and if I can own, it is overpowered.

[kahlos]

CE = okay, let us know the name so we can all have a go at him.

[L-A]

Bumped for the person with the 'Clerics are broken' shout-out.

Cruel: Just go and fight gimps who can't keep track of their sanc and spam path in when it falls. A cleric will kill anyone who tries to fight them without sanctuary. I got 30 kills on a cleric once upon a time doing this. I also never killed any player of note and subsequently got frustrated with the class due to the 1-dimensional structure of their PK tactics.

And Archgold: I'm still waiting for my log with ***DEMO*** from path no a non-ogre with sanctuary and saves....

L-A

[archgold]

haven't pinned my char yet.....takes a long time to train and coincidentally all the drow clerics are out of my range

[Ex-D&Der]

It seems to me the solution to seremon is to play a thief or a ninja. You can also play a ranger and thunderstorm their arse. Clerics are supposed to be strong against melees and even casters.