Cabal Warfare System rework

As for the Cabal Warfare Ideas I think it should be switced to all mobs, attackable by defenders and attackers. This means there is players and PK interaction which, IMHO, is a good thing.

If you don't want to have to PK don't join a cabal.

L-A

Now, see, I don't mind the current system too much as it does promote interaction (bloody interaction, but interaction none the less).

Now here comes my great big but....

BUT

Here's the thing that gets me hung up lately. Back in the day, when you'd see something like two to three page who lists at prime time, the cabals were busy with each other. Which gave credibility to the "if you don't like INTENSE PK, don't join a cabal" (note that I say intense PK vs. PK as PK is always a present factor barring one cabal), however, given the decline in active players, caballed people who are bored and have spent most of their time being blood thirsty, turn themselves and their nifty powers on those who don't have nifty powers given with the greater responsibility which is no longer such a great responsibility.

We need a little somethin' more. What? I don't know and given my declining time, it's not my place to decide. Just tossing in my 2 cents on PK and the Cabal these days.

No matter what either of you say that isn't the case and I'm getting more than a little sick of seeing it. Wake up to yourself - neither of you deserve any sympathy from anyone while you're hallucinating about being 'underpowered.'

Even I couldn't have said it better, now lets get back on topic:

As for the Cabal Warfare Ideas I think it should be switced to all mobs, attackable by defenders and attackers. This means there is players and PK interaction which, IMHO, is a good thing.

This. I was considering it as well and I think the idea has a lot of value in it, BUT, to make bastions take equally long time to conquer as they take in the moment, they have to be VERY strong i.e. something with similar strength and stats to the generals in my suggestion.

Also, have in mind that this will be hard to balance since you simply CAN NOT and should not make it take the same time for a necro and for a shaman to kill certain mob.

[edit]

Valek posted right before me, so I will edit this. He makes a good point. We need to give caballed people something to do in their free time. Turning bastions into attackable mobs (armies of them even) would give them that something. Implementing generals which can be equipped will give them that. Implying different paths of tactics will give them that. Would that distract caballed players from being so bloodthirsty, especially towards uncaballed people? If there is a real gain for the caballed person to stay in fight next to his armies, I believe it will.

Twinblades & L-A:

No matter what either of you say that isn't the case and I'm getting more than a little sick of seeing it. Wake up to yourself - neither of you deserve any sympathy from anyone while you're hallucinating about being 'underpowered.'

I never claimed to be underpowered.. and I never supported the fact that vampires aren't strong as all hell. I never brought up Valkynsra, either, nor undead battlemages or the fact that everyone uses LI against me. I replied to Toten's post. I never claimed that LI was something that no one should use. I never posted saying that I have some 'weakness', nor in these posts did I ever say that it was unfair that people use LI against me. In fact, I posted TWICE in agreement with Kyzarious. Come on, people, look past the name and read my posts for once. Thanks.

As for Morgael and Nahjrgodj? I know both very well. I talk to them both regularly, and I agree that their RP is exceedingly exceptional during this time and age. But let's stop taking pot shots, for **** sake, at me or Toten, and get to the point. You've already posted once how disgusted you are with us as players, let's keep it at that, and move on, since it seems the staff agrees with you wholeheartedly. No bloody point in rubbing it in.

And to f0xx, sorry for hijacking your post. I love how Celerity modified it to a way that it might be more useful, though in that case it seems that it would just be upgrading the warfare system and not completely revamping it. The mob idea is a good one and I fully support it.. of course, minor tweaks would have to be made (of which I don't know as of yet, the staff would have to figure out what's OP and what's not). I completely agree that it should take GROUPS of people to take a cabal's standard.. and having huge mobs holding them would be damn cool.

[edit] and the idea of bastions being attackable by players, and to garrison them they have to bring the garrison (or summon it for cps) to take its place.. so much room for improvement with the current system it's not funny![/edit]

...however, given the decline in active players, caballed people who are bored and have spent most of their time being blood thirsty, turn themselves and their nifty powers on those who don't have nifty powers given with the greater responsibility which is no longer such a great responsibility...

We need a little somethin' more. What? I don't know and given my declining time, it's not my place to decide. Just tossing in my 2 cents on PK and the Cabal these days.

Agreed - which is why I suggest making the armies and bastions attackable (but only by cabal with engaged armies) by players. You can speed your conquest along by getting involved if you would like AND you can't be killing mobs and off hasstling uncaballed players at the same time

L-A

And just in case someone wants to complain about shamans havin' a hard time or invokers having a hard time in a system like this, perhaps if you physically lead the army/assist the bastion, they would take the front until they died or triumphed.

I firmly believe this would help take down on SOME of the non-caballed characters getting smacked around and keep caballed players busy on a higher level. Should a non-caballed character choose to try to be opportunistic, well, you're right back to where you started with having the wrath of a caballed character or entire cabal on your head.

EDIT: Re: Jibber: I've said it before, I'll say it again. Don't be sorry. Just end it on the thread. Walk. Opinions of players don't matter. Opinions of the staff do. Just walk from it.

Even I couldn't have said it better, now lets get back on topic:

This. I was considering it as well and I think the idea has a lot of value in it, BUT, to make bastions take equally long time to conquer as they take in the moment, they have to be VERY strong i.e. something with similar strength and stats to the generals in my suggestion.

Also, have in mind that this will be hard to balance since you simply CAN NOT and should not make it take the same time for a necro and for a shaman to kill certain mob.

[edit]

Valek posted right before me, so I will edit this. He makes a good point. We need to give caballed people something to do in their free time. Turning bastions into attackable mobs (armies of them even) would give them that something. Implementing generals which can be equipped will give them that. Implying different paths of tactics will give them that. Would that distract caballed players from being so bloodthirsty, especially towards uncaballed people? If there is a real gain for the caballed person to stay in fight next to his armies, I believe it will.

With regard to time - why not go the other way and make it faster paced? Allow a RT hour of un-opposed bastion killing to cost a cabal LOTS of land. This puts the emphasis on defending what you have. It would also up CP gain as bastions and armies fall faster. More pace, more excitement to the game.

With the glass vs mob thing - this is true. Some classes are better at PvP and some better at PvM. Almost none are super strong on both - which is the great balancer here. You choose your class fully knowing what you're in for - this just makes it a little more pronounced in cabal warfare.

L-A

Great, seeing the PB work as a team makes me happy

Now to the point:

of course' date=' minor tweaks would have to be made[/quote']

Not minor, but major. This is no small change and as I said multiple times, this is not my idea, it is OURS.

A lot of good points:

With regard to time - why not go the other way and make it faster paced? Allow a RT hour of un-opposed bastion killing to cost a cabal LOTS of land. This puts the emphasis on defending what you have. It would also up CP gain as bastions and armies fall faster. More pace' date=' more excitement to the game.[/quote']

This I like. Would also give the attacker an option whether to go for the standard or to go for the land i.e. will give the weaker player more room to act.

And just in case someone wants to complain about shamans havin' a hard time or invokers having a hard time in a system like this' date=' perhaps if you physically lead the army/assist the bastion, they would take the front until they died or triumphed.[/quote']

Yes, I even suggested this at first page by prioritising the targets of the armies/generals. In this scenario the main emphasis falls on the armies and generals while the player himself plays as a supportive unit. The armies will target the player only of there are no other armies/generals present.

The main reason why I don't like them to be directly attackable is that the classes are nowhere near balanced for PvM, like people have said.

Which classes are strongest PvM? Rangers, necros, warriors, bmgs, and anything that can do heavy melee damage. This hurts the communers/rogues.

Now take into account the other main warfare option (standard capping) already favors the PvM classes, this means they get a double bonus.

Also, I can't agree that the PvM classes aren't also the PvP classes.

Give a player a knight elf ninja and then next give them a watcher ogre ranger and you can see how someone magically goes from 'terrible' to taking out Kurvikhel.

No, no, no...I don't want a system that is based on PK ability for the army warfare. Just another way to reward powergaming in a system that already emphasizes it WAY too much.

No' date=' no, no...I don't want a system that is based on PK ability for the army warfare. Just another way to reward powergaming in a system that already emphasizes it WAY too much.[/quote']

Now this is the mentality don't like. Instead of refusing it completely why don't we consider ways to make it work?

You say that the most powerful mob killing characters are the heavy damage dealers, I will say that shamans can take down anything, yes it takes a longer time but you have no limitations, while this is not the case with melees, necros, rangers who rely on consumables, pets and EQ.

Also, as a communer you will be able to cast defensive spells on your armies including curatives.

To me this seems much more balanced than a shaman fighting a cabal guard...

You say that the most powerful mob killing characters are the heavy damage dealers' date=' I will say that shamans can take down anything, yes it takes a longer time but you have no limitations, while this is not the case with melees, necros, rangers who rely on consumables, pets and EQ.[/quote']

I will say that anything can take down anything with the proper amount of time and effort put in - it's just more risky for certain combos against certain mobs than others (and so you remember it's more than just mage vs melee, but is certainly class-specific... properly prepped, nothing that does only magic damage can kill an invoker, and nothing that does only physical can kill a healer - period). If you ask me, the worst classes in the game at killing mobs in any sort of a safe AND time-efficient manner are thieves, ninjas, zerks, healers, and shamans (invokers come close to making this list, but I leave them off due to the class being quite PK capable with very minimal eq, which I consider to be adequate compensation for sucking against mobs).

The first two I think make perfect sense from both an RP and PK perspective, and I want them to stay that way. Healers and shamans have absolutely nothing to fear from the mobs themselves, beyond the few that can haymaker or dispel and bash/bodyslam, so I think it's perfectly fine that they take forever doing it alone. However, I very much dislike that zerks suffer against mobs so heavily - rage can lock you in the fight and kill you, haymaker doesn't drop any of their permanent buffs, weapon and shield cleave tend to destroy what you're often going for in the first place, bodyslam's worthless except for minor damage... I'm not even certain if headbutt stops mob casting. While they certainly do heavy damage while raged, a lot of mobs have so much hp and hit a raged zerk so much that this is largely negated. The change to roar helps a little, but zerks are still terrible and very risky mob-killers... and I do not think that they deserve to be, from an RP standpoint nor based on their PK prowess. Sure, they're great in a group with a tank and a healer... but either the tank or the healer could do it on their own with a fairly high chance of success if they were willing to sink in the time. This isn't true for the zerk.

Zerks are an exception to be honest.

The thing is that with some classes you need time to gather the consumables while killing the mob is relatively fast. With others you don't spend time gathering consumables, but you need more time to kill the mob.

Things balance out in the end, except zerkers of course.

Zerks are an exception to be honest.

The thing is that with some classes you need time to gather the consumables while killing the mob is relatively fast. With others you don't spend time gathering consumables, but you need more time to kill the mob.

Things balance out in the end, except zerkers of course.

consumables are a good point.

One thing non CC classes have against them if the army system became actionable in PK as legit mobs is the heavy toll this will place on their supplies.

A communer, and a caster to a lesser degree can battle such things without much prep work at all, however a BLM, zerk, warrior, Monk...they all need a backpack full of herbs/potions/pills to emulate the spells neccesary to fight. If we make this an engagable system then we are doubling the demand on these classes without helping the supply.

Why must everyone rag on berzerkers?

I must say this is the most constructive and mature thread I've seen in awhile. I wonder if the Imms are as proud of you all as I am. -tear-

Why must everyone rag on berzerkers?

Sorry. Their sucking at killing mobs solo is one of the things I hate most about playing them... particularly as most of my mob-killing on any char is done solo.

Sorry. Their sucking at killing mobs solo is one of the things I hate most about playing them... particularly as most of my mob-killing on any char is done solo.

Edited for grammatical errors:

Sorry. (your not sorry at all, stick to the truth) Their (my) sucking at killing mobs solo is one of the things I hate most about playing them... (only one period at the end of the any sentence) particularly (Always capitalize the first word that begins a new sentence) as most of my mob-killing (mob-deaths) on any char is done solo.

I can never resist a jab at Pali

Ellipses... perfectly acceptable.

Edited for grammatical errors:

Sorry. (your not sorry at all, stick to the truth) Their (my) sucking at killing mobs solo is one of the things I hate most about playing them... (only one period at the end of the any sentence) particularly (Always capitalize the first word that begins a new sentence) as most of my mob-killing (mob-deaths) on any char is done solo.

I can never resist a jab at Pali

Mr. Grammar, shouldn't that be a you're?

Mr. Grammar' date=' shouldn't that be a you're? [/quote']

That's Mrs. Grammar. Seriously.

I'm Mr. Grammar.

Yay for an English Major caring less than the rest of you about grammar over the internet.