The Golden Standard

[sarcon]

Now the question is.. What is better? To enter the lands and make a great attempt in defending your standard againts a tough opponent and losing your standard.. Or try to flee the lands as quick as you can and lose the standard anyways. I must say.. most seem to flee the lands rather quickly.. Very amusing. There was a time when that rarely happen, seems as of late fleeing as quick as you can is the new trend.

[sarcon]

Go Big.. Or Go Home

[Fiere]

Complaining on here isn't going to do anything but depress everybody. The only thing you can do to try to change it that MIGHT work is be an example and lead people in game.

[Aulian]

You know, you can change attitudes of players in game...

If they know they are going to die and get full looted then hell. They will run. I only a know a handfull of people that enjoy a cabal war when they are outnumbered, oh sure many will say HELL YEAH! But when you are going to loose your nimbus if you die, not many are keen.

There are a few of us out there that will stick, but not many, however there are some things that will create an atmosphere when people WILL WANT TO STICK AROUND..

If you can rape someone, dont just full loot them every time? Whats the point in that? YOU are creating the OMG QUIT NOW psyche. Instead, take all their weapons, their sanc and maybe the torso piece.. Maybe they will start to think, HELL I JOINED THIS CABAL FOR A WAR, I MAY DIE BUT ATLEAST I DONT HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH..

I guarentee you people will start sticking around more.

As for the actually rules policiy, when I was L and E of Watcher, you didnt have to retrieve the standard, just dont expect my time outright if you didnt apply yourself correctly. There is no need for suicide, but those guards can be alright to kill quickly... Sometimes it takes patience but MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO GET IT BACK. But the age old rule stands foremost.. your life is precious, you dont know that you are going to get another (RP point of view) so it is ILLEGAL to waste it...

Just a 2c thought.

-A

EDIT: So what im trying to say is instead of saying "What the hell should he do to make this better. You should be thinking, WHAT THE HELL CAN -I- DO TO MAKE THIS BETTER.

[TheNewGuy]

Aulian has quite a point there...

[sarcon]

Seems like you hit the nail on the coffin with that one.

[Guest emp_newb]

The way I see it, and usually always have, is if I am in a cabal, I have signed myself up to do whatever it takes, even if that means I die for it.

[Tantangel]

Depends on what's going on. If I'm in the middle of my play and getting attacked by Cabal enemies and standard is trying to be taken, unless I'm starting to lag or I really have to go do something else I'll do my best to stay. Otherwise though, usually stay to try and at least keep it, if not I'm probably having to do something more important IRL, it's just a game after all, it's not that important compared to say your job or anything else like that.

[Filth]

There's an old fashion RP style that I have seen in my many years of playing. You know what they are going to say even before they say it. "He/she's my enemy, why would I want to leave anything on their corpse?" I have even been ask why I would show my enemy mercy.

I will tell you. Behind the screen and behind the keyboard is just another human trying to have a good time. They fight me, I fight them and we have a blast. Why would I want to be, for lack of a better word, a dick to them after they gave me this chance for such a unique form of entertainment? After all, I do want them to come back so we can dance around the realms another time.

For example: I have been fighting a good hearted monk since way back in the 30s (level 30 that is). We have fought countless times and each of these times it was I who managed to land the deathblow. Each time I chose a prize, a ring of accuracy or his vials or what not, but I left the majority of his things in tact. Because of this he is still around and he is never afraid to fight me. He is never afraid to try out some new strategy or come at me all out. Sure he may die. Sure if he dies he'll lose a couple neat items. But he wont be left with nothing. It would only motivate him to try harder next time, or at the very least, he will not flee the realms the moment I log in.

If you want to fight a war you need willing warriors on both sides. How willing would someone be if each time you log in they die and lose everything? Respect your pray.

[Kyzarius]

You know, you can change attitudes of players in game...

If they know they are going to die and get full looted then hell. They will run. I only a know a handfull of people that enjoy a cabal war when they are outnumbered, oh sure many will say HELL YEAH! But when you are going to loose your nimbus if you die, not many are keen.

There are a few of us out there that will stick, but not many, however there are some things that will create an atmosphere when people WILL WANT TO STICK AROUND..

If you can rape someone, dont just full loot them every time? Whats the point in that? YOU are creating the OMG QUIT NOW psyche. Instead, take all their weapons, their sanc and maybe the torso piece.. Maybe they will start to think, HELL I JOINED THIS CABAL FOR A WAR, I MAY DIE BUT ATLEAST I DONT HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH..

I guarentee you people will start sticking around more.

As for the actually rules policiy, when I was L and E of Watcher, you didnt have to retrieve the standard, just dont expect my time outright if you didnt apply yourself correctly. There is no need for suicide, but those guards can be alright to kill quickly... Sometimes it takes patience but MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO GET IT BACK. But the age old rule stands foremost.. your life is precious, you dont know that you are going to get another (RP point of view) so it is ILLEGAL to waste it...

Just a 2c thought.

-A

EDIT: So what im trying to say is instead of saying "What the hell should he do to make this better. You should be thinking, WHAT THE HELL CAN -I- DO TO MAKE THIS BETTER.

Amazingly accurate, and this really does ping true with the thread in shout outs about full looting.

People do it because rp they are an evil, or rp wise this is your enemy. Yeah great, but the overlying truth is this is a game we all play. Or maybe lets set him on his butt so he wont kill me again. But in truth all it does is make for a really frustrating playing environment.

Tired of your enemies hiding, stop full looting everyone you kill. That simple. In the end that guy didnt run to save his life, he ran to save his eq and the extreme amount of time it takes them to get it (ESPECIALLY new players, more newbie friendly fl..).

That was one of the classiest things about people like Morchial, and Messlantha(sp). Mess beat me dozens of times on dozens of characters in her reign, and truthfully I dont think she full looted me once. Morchial pounded the snot out of Silviana many many times, and I think only looted me fully once. this in my opinion is good sportsmanship.

[Nightmare_from_hell]

If I killed someone like Morchial, (That which I was never able to do with my Knight), you'd better be sure I'm going to full loot him. Why? Because I know that even if I leave half his things, he'll come right back and kill me again, just like he did 30+ times. On the same note, if the battle was easier than easy, and I can tell the char doesn't know the intricacies of their class, I'll take some key items, but leave nearly everything. At the end of the day, it is just a game. You WILL lose equipment. It's tough. You got the equipment once, you can get it again. More experience gaining the equipment will make you able to gain it faster in the future. That's how I learned to equip. Requiring me to re-equip constantly was frustrating, but now I look back on it and I thank those who made me do it because now I can go and gain equipment so much more quickly than before. You just have to be willing to do the work.

[Pali]

Please. Are you guys seriously saying that if you finally took down some super-decked cabal elder that it took you fifty attempts to kill that you wouldn't take all his stuff, you'd take a couple nice things and leave the rest? I'd leave him butt naked so that he's not a threat for a while. If I roll over someone I'll take only a few choice things, but if someone's a very serious fight, they lose it all. Why? Because if it's a serious fight, I know my opponent is skilled enough to get it back. If they're a cabal elder, they should expect it. Every time I die I expect a full loot. I'm cool with that. The last three times I've been full looted my char had a better eq set within a day than he did when he was killed.

[Dobson]

And that ladies and gents, is why PALI is an ***. No offense bro, but when you take a step back, if you are so afraid of them you should only want to fight them more to learn. Basically what you said was they are better than you and you will not be able to beat them without an advantage.

Cheers.

[smallman]

And that ladies and gents' date=' is why PALI is an ***. [/quote']

Drop the flamethrower and put on your thinking cap. This game is pretty well balanced, with some exceptions. EQ is just EQ, but some class/qrace/cabal combos have innate advantages that make them much more difficult to kill in one on one combat. The context of Pali's post is full looting in a cabal situation, where the victim should expect to be looted anyway. I can't say I like the viciousness of cabal warfare, but that's something for the IMMs to consider.

That said, I agree with Aulian and Filth.

[EyeSeeU]

There is a time and a place for everything. There are times when you can leave an enemy in a cabal with basically everything they died with, and then again there are times when you need to take just about everything from them. Im not saying you need to full loot everytime, however you are not an *** if you do it once in a while.

[L-A]

I'm with Pali on this one - maybe it's the 'old school' mentality of cabal warfare, life at lvl 50 in general or that the RP of a lot of my characters demands that I leave you in nothing.

To be honest - if it took you three hours to gather the eq then its probably good eq and:

a) There is NO WAY I will leave you with it to try to kill me again in 10min time

I want all that nice eq for myself so I get stronger and can kill you (and others) again.

If it took you 15min to get that eq (eg mithril, tainted, red dragon) then it won't be long before you that eq back again.

Not to mention if my character has a good enough reason to kill you, they have a good enough reason to loot you.

I've seen very few circumstances where a non-eq'd character cannot put in a good showing vs an eq'd character. Its not easy, you may have to run, but you can show up and do what has to be done - be it getting my standard back (which is so easy its quite pathetic if you're not even trying) to fighting the leader of an opposing cabal.

L-A

[kahlos]

If you're logged on and a STRONG character from an enemy cabal logs on, damn man it's scary but stick around! See what happens. Show him you have enough balls to at least try and take him on or defend your standard. If he kicks your *** and takes your standard, fair enough! At least you tried and showed him your worth.. now prepare and try and retrieve it. If he guards it well and kicks your *** yet again, FLEE and don't sacrifice your freaking life for it. Losing the standard is not the end of the world. Take the defeat, you have not lost the war yet. There is NO SHAME in quitting. I DOUBT any imm or cabal leader will boot you out for doing this.

Also, retrieving the standard is very easy to do. What I noticed is, most good players now, if outnumbered, fight but try and survive, but once they lose their standard.. they make a valiant attempt to retrieve it and is successful, then logs off to prevent it from getting stolen again.. No shame in that either.. and it's actually quite annoying to the cabal who stole it.

Also- there is a VERY VERY useful cabal feature that will make you 1,000,000% more confident to stay and engage and even die without much worry. It is expensive, but worth the use every now and then. I guarantee it will up your confidence in PK, and allow you to learn a lot about how to fight your enemy better.

My main advice though is- STAY ALIVE. If you really value your character anyways. I understand that some people can pinn a character with ease and don't mind re-equipping every 10 seconds and condying in a week, while it's fun, it's no good in the long run. Your character won't be remembered.

Regarding full looting- NO WAY am I gonna leave an enemy cabal's corpse unemptied. If you think this is dumb, you're weak. Play an uncaballed or use your cabal benefits. I never full-loot uncaballed unless you showed that you can kill me easily. Whenever I die on my main characters, I expect a full loot. If you don't, man you're in big trouble.

[Anume]

My personal opinion:

Locking off once or twice is fine, letting it get a habbit should get you booted out of your cabal or at least demoted. Locking off if you are naked is generally ok (though you can impress your Imm by getting some basics and retrieving successfully).

If you loose your standard you should ALWAYS try to retrieve AT LEAST once. That is your cabal duty.

Looting:

If I can kill you easily I generally won't loot much unless you annoyed me.

If you are extremely hard to kill for me it depends:

- if I want to fight you more I'll leave you some (but not all).

- if I'd rather not have to fight you again anytime soon, you're naked.

If you are in a vendettaed cabal and easy to kill you can be sure I won't take much, I want you to try again so I get more cp

If you are hard to kill and vendettaed you're with a very high probability naked if I get you.

[kahlos]

Agreed with the not making it a habit comment. Should have included that.

If you are in a vendettaed cabal and easy to kill you can be sure I won't take much, I want you to try again so I get more cp

Duly noted.

CPs rock.

[Aulian]

Please. Are you guys seriously saying that if you finally took down some super-decked cabal elder that it took you fifty attempts to kill that you wouldn't take all his stuff' date=' you'd take a couple nice things and leave the rest? I'd leave him butt naked so that he's not a threat for a while. If I roll over someone I'll take only a few choice things, but if someone's a very serious fight, they lose it all. Why? Because if it's a serious fight, I know my opponent is skilled enough to get it back. If they're a cabal elder, they should expect it. Every time I die I expect a full loot. I'm cool with that. The last three times I've been full looted my char had a better eq set within a day than he did when he was killed.[/quote']

Dude, did you even read what i posted? I said if you keep stomping the dude.. You better believe me that if I killed Corinkorth or Messa or something the likes of a player who is VERY STRONG i WOULD full loot. Im talking about the people you stomp that you DO NOT NEED TO LOOT TO STOMP AGAIN.

Give people a chance is you want them to stick around and fight you instead of just quitting.

EDIT: My first post was directed directly at the first one in this thread. However under no circumstance would I suggest you think im above a full loot - it would be your mistake

Oh and LA (and Pali)... Alot of us here have been here a long time also.. We have been through the thinks and the thins of PK for a VERY long time.. It doesnt mean that the current situation is beyond changing your own attitudes. If we all just stayed rigid in our beliefs and completely unwilling to change, we wouldnt get anywhere anytime quickly.

-A

[HBwillie]

As far as I'm concerned...Strong opponents get looted. Vendetta'd caballed members get looted. Rogues get looted.

[L-A]

Dude, did you even read what i posted? I said if you keep stomping the dude.. You better believe me that if I killed Corinkorth or Messa or something the likes of a player who is VERY STRONG i WOULD full loot. Im talking about the people you stomp that you DO NOT NEED TO LOOT TO STOMP AGAIN.

Give people a chance is you want them to stick around and fight you instead of just quitting.

EDIT: My first post was directed directly at the first one in this thread. However under no circumstance would I suggest you think im above a full loot - it would be your mistake

Oh and LA (and Pali)... Alot of us here have been here a long time also.. We have been through the thinks and the thins of PK for a VERY long time.. It doesnt mean that the current situation is beyond changing your own attitudes. If we all just stayed rigid in our beliefs and completely unwilling to change, we wouldnt get anywhere anytime quickly.

-A

I know - but seriously with the current climate you can't pick one fight and hope to see it through. I was fighting two characters the other day and one of them was fighting me and someone else.

I don't want to risk killing someone, leaving them half their stuff and then having them pop up and tag me as I'm hot-footing it from a nasty beat down by a couple of cabal baddies, a Syndicate, two or three Tribunals or a retrieve gone bad. I'm 100% sure that I'd be left nothing (since I already killed said person). Its just easier to limit people by taking their eq so you know you have at least 15min before they will come looking again and/or won't be as strong as last time.

Loss of eq isn't really that big of a deal in any case - any giant size warrior will hae 40/30 in lvl 30 eq these days, all c/c's all have access to their high damage spells while naked and rogues - you don't often get the chance to loot rogue's so I'd be making the most of it

I do not full loot under lvl 50 unless trash talk/mutli kill/gangs are involvoed. I might take your weapons, gold and vials, but you will have things left at your corpse.

At the lvl 50 range I apply a full loot. Always have, always will. IMHO, me not doing this not only lowers the chance of survivability for my character, it weakens the pbase as a whole.

L-A

[Pali]

My post wasn't directed just to you, Aulian, but the simple truth is that if I'm in the middle of a cabal war and I kill you (no matter how easily) and still have other opponents to deal with, I'm looting/saccing everything on your corpse as fast as I can so that I won't have you distracting me for a while. As stated, if I roll over someone, then I won't loot unless they've annoyed my character, but anyone who presents close to an even fight gets looted so that I don't worry about the threat again. I expect this behavior in return, so I don't feel bad about doing it. Maybe L-A's right, maybe it's the old school cabal warfare mentality (my 1.0 cabal members NEVER left a stitch of clothing on an opponent's corpse), but quite frankly I'd RATHER that everyone full looted usually than didn't. I don't play FL for a friendly atmosphere, I play FL because I enjoy a violent world full of risk and deaths that have serious consequences beyond just 1 less life left.

[Aulian]

Alright, now dont get me wrong.

For the vets - and you are easily pointed out in the first 5 rounds of pk combat - you will be comepletely full looted, (unless its like mithril, then hey, i'm not that cruel)

For newbs - And yes, most times you can tell very quickly (ussually because you are the agressor ) - I would leave their eq, give em a chance ot learn instead of just re-equip the whole time.

[Filth]

Rogues get looted.

That made me laugh.

Full loot is not a crime, but it is not a law either. It dose not have to be done just because you pwned someone. I agree with Aulian, I am not above full loots. I have done my share. But I do it only when necessary.