Melee Saves

[Fiere]

Having just pinned a warrior, what is a decent hit/dam and saves that I should generally aim for before fighting people who attack me? I'm sitting at like 36/38 and -10 vs spell, -10 mal. Something like that.

[kahlos]

Just wear the best armor you can find. Don't worry about stats.

IMO though, wearing saves is only useful against shamans if you're a warrior as they concentrate on landing a mal at a time anyways.

Against anything else, go full on hitroll and outhit/damage them before they can land or cast anything.

[L-A]

60 hit/dam is where dimishing returns kick in - but I doubt you can get 60/60 and good saves so:

Try for 60 - 70 hit, 40 dam and -35 to -40 saves (total) across the categories (ie you have -9 svs from warcry so you only need to find -31 when you add svs and specific saves together to achieve this).

If you're 'on the cheap' - and lets face it, the times when you aren't 'super suited' are going to far exceed the times when you are then look for the saves vs the class you are fighting the most ie if you have 6 invokers in you opposing cabal you're going to be looking for -sva first.

I'm no warrior expert so my approach could easily be flawed (which would account for my inability to play a warrior with what I would consider any amount of sucess).

L-A

[WagesofSin]

I'm just starting to experience the warrior class myself and I'm not quite sure I agree with stacking on hit and dam. It makes sense if you know how to get 60-70 hit and 40 dam, but like L-A said your not going to have that kind of hit/dam most of the time. Even -20 in a save is better than nothing, especially if you can't get high hit/dam. The point is not to block the spell entirely, but to delay it enough so you can initiate the beat down.

Though take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm not too successful with my Warrior .

[Grishnak]

Here's my thoughts on the warrior world. A lot has changed since I've played a pure melee, but I think the general idea is still the same:

Before I even get started, you should realize that:

1) Everything depends on your race. A FG must have afflictive saves, for example. I'll make some references to this, but on the whole assume I'm talking about ogres (as it is what I've played most).

2) Weapon selection is -everything- for a warrior. Especially with the advent of warrior lores. These can also change your strategies.

3) Cabal choice can also change things. I'm going to gear a NEXUS warrior differently than I would a WARMASTER. Especially in the beginning stages of equipping.

Okay, here are my thoughts on equipping your warrior. There are two main schools of thought here, stacking saves and letting your multiple attacks do enough damage or stacking hit/dam and doing too much damage for them to land spells anyways.

Anyone who know me knows that I'm a big fan of the second method. I'll explain why. (Please note I do think -some- saves are important, but don't focus on them until I'm putting together my "uber" set) Before you play a pure melee I recommend rolling up a cleric/healer/druid/etc. Do this and go around identifying and making a list of every consumable you can find. When you're done, you will quickly realize that almost every malediction that hinders a warrior can be cured with a potion or a pill. So much for needing mal saves.

The -biggest- mistake people make with warriors is assuming they are a straight-forward, thoughtless class. Warriors probably have the most strategy of any class I've played. They also require the most low-end work to achieve probably one of the highest top-end results. Consumables are your life as a warrior. If you aren't stocked up, you're dead to any smart C/C (communers especially).

So, start off focusing on hit/dam, but with preparation. That is what most people miss out on. From there, as you can, you do need some saves to survive. Everyone says focus on maledictive saves, I say nay! Mental saves should be your first focus, because mental spells are the ones that kill a consumable/equipment-based class. If your opponent can dispel your sanc/frenzy/haste/enlarge even 1/2 of the time, you're going to lose. If you get put to sleep or otherwise incapacitated, you're going to lose. Lucky for you mental saves are, in my experience, the easiest to get in this new world. There are plenty of items with -8 or more mental saves AND some hit/dam out there. These are your friend. Again, you've got that cleric identifying stuff for you. Figure out what you need before you ever start playing that warrior in the 50 range.

The third focus for you (again, as an ogre. This changes depending on race) is afflictive saves. You should have enough hp, especially with protections and whatnot that you've stocked up on, to take some unsaved hits. But if you get a couple of saves here or there it makes your opponent much less likely to win. You don't need to shoot for the sky with this category, but having a few items (see those same mental items mentioned above) can help.

All of the above is null and void for a warrior without item knowledge and SPEED. There are items to knock your opponent out of the air for that trip, but odds are you're going to be chasing with an offensive warrior (both to land the kill, and to keep the opponent from healing/returning). There are warrior lores to help with this, but overall you NEED to be able to follow and murder faster than they can run three rooms and co 'cure crit'. Know areas that you'll be fighting in like the back of your hand. If you have to run while blind and disoriented (you shouldn't, because you've got loads of consumables), one of my big tricks is to find rooms that you can identify while blind as a starting point. This may be because of a talking mob, a specific exit that is unique to the area, a fountain, anything. You have to be able to get out fast, is the point.

In the end, when you're stacked with high hit/dam, there isn't a class in the game that can keep up with your offensive output. There are classes that are tough as nails for a warrior to fight/win against, but there is no single class that should always dominate a prepared, equipped warrior. You just hurt too much. That's why I'm a fan of method #2. There are enough consumables to make up for lacking saves (maledictive especially). Find them, use them, hit for ****DEMOLISHES**** 4+ times a round on an unsanced opponent. No one lives long (even after sanc reduction) when you do that.

====yes, this turned into a mini-warrior guide. Whoops====

[Guest emp_newb]

Well first off, you will want to let on if it is a Giant, Ogre, or minotaur. Minotaurs really having the best "advantages" of warriors, dual 2 axes (mage killer) and a nice charge with no downside save an exp penalty. I have found that afflictive damage, while painful, is nearly voided since you can carry eatable curatives. Maledictions kill warriors flat out, you land 2 or 3 uncurables, and take away their regen, they are done 9 times out of 10. So just hit up the mal saves, get to about a 50-55 hitroll (not that hard at all really) Then stock up on mal saves, damage is useful, but not exactly necessary

[TheNewGuy]

The mino charge is only for zerks. On a warrior, it is just another charge...

[Fiere]

Whoh, hold up there buddy. Why do people keep saying this? It's completely, utterly, and in all other ways wrong. I've got a mino warrior at fifty, and I can tell you from personal experience that they DO get the lag charge, just not the free round of axe smashing.

[crackwilly21]

Mino warriors don't get the charge.

[Fiere]

I just barely used it in a fight vs a shaman like yesterday!

[Anume]

Highly depends on your race, warrior lore and which people you fight most.

[crackwilly21]

I meant the zerker charge bonus that minos get. I know they get a lagging charge, but they don't get the horn toss/destruction charge.

[Fiere]

Which is what I just said, as well.

[TheNewGuy]

Ah, that noob TNG thought all charges lagged... What an idiot!

Aww

[L-A]

Ah, that noob TNG thought all charges lagged... What an idiot!

Aww

They do - mino zerk just more than usual and repeatable + horns toss.

Mino warrior not more than usual and not repeatable and (it seems) no horns toss.

I know Viri changed it after about 1 week of mino's being allowed to be warriors as he said it would be 'too much' for a warrior to have.

L-A

[TheNewGuy]

Woho, I was right then. Because that's the way I have always thought it was.

[Fiere]

GAAAAAHHHH!!! NOOO! It IS repeatable! That's what's special about it! BAAHHH!

[L-A]

GAAAAAHHHH!!! NOOO! It IS repeatable! That's what's special about it! BAAHHH!

Sorry mate - but I really want to know if its the same as the zerks one. So, lets go through the effects:

1) Lags for 2 rounds - not 1 like normal charge

2) Get 1 attack for every axe wielded

3) Can repeat at infinitum - effectively meaning charge lock is possible.

I know this is what the mino zerk one does. You're telling me the mino warrior one does all of this?

L-A

[Calron]

Mino warrior does 1 and 3, but not 2.

[The Lemming]

1) Lags for 2 rounds - not 1 like normal charge

I think the lag on charge is varriable, I have definatly lagged for more than one with regular charge before.

2) Get 1 attack for every axe wielded

They get a full round of combat worth of swings, I have seen up to five. I have heard of up to 7.

[Fiere]

1 and 3 apply to warriors, although the lag from charge isn't one round, but two. I think that's for any charge though. The only thing different from the zerk charge is the free round of axe smashing.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I've always found it's the maledictive saves you need.

BUT your hit/dam is important. Around a 45/40 hit/dam minimum.

Your greatest challenge is going to be their protective shield/flying abilities which any smart caster/communer will have up. Trip is okay, but ultimately they should be able to land enough to put a hurtin' on you.

So, this is my simple, but some say, ultimately stupid method.

Make them chase you. Wait for that protective shield to drop. Preferably use a detect magic and watch your ticks. Make sure you have your consumables for your health and detect invis. Use your bash and hopefully sanc will drop along with protective shield forcing them to put up not one, but two key spells.

*shrug* Just my idea. I've never actually executed it though. Only played one warrior to 50. And it was only a medium size character that I thought had great potential, just not in my hands yet.

[Deykari]

It can be -very- hard to get a suitable 'one-size-fits-all' EQ suit (as in, one that has good saves across the board whilst having great hit/dam), so tailoring it to your most common opponents usually works well (except when you're going to be fighting multiple different casters, like say, an active invoker/shaman in the same cabal). It's harder for a warrior, who will probably be using their 4 inventory rare slots to keep different weapon types (their strength) but there are some decent pieces of non-rare saves EQ that can be kept in a sack for when they are needed. Doublesheath also displays one of it's more subtle strengths here, but I won't tell you what if you haven't figured it out. Think about how you would story rare weaponry in your inventory and how doublesheath will help.

Here's two very different caster classes:

If the Invoker is properly dressed, you'd better have at -least- some mental saves present, because sanctuary is what bides your time to lay the pain down, and without mental saves, you will lose your spells fast. Ice storm and call lightning are two spells that can tear through higher afflictive saves, but both of those can be negated at times with clever fighting meaning that you can sometimes get away with having lower afflictive saves if you are forcing them to use other spells that you can save against easier. I killed so many Warriors as my invoker through dispel magic. I fought plenty of giants/Ogres as Enellelisell who went all hit/dam, and it was a simple case of dispel and ice storm/hellstream. With a fully charged staff and a good EQ set (Enellelisell had upwards of 1100hp max at point point, as a Faerie, and had room for a little more) an Invoker has the capability to tear down Warriors that lack in saves, just thanks to dispel magic. The same can stand for battlemages and clerics (as far as dispel magic is concerned). Now, putting me up against a Warrior (even one with a vuln) that had good mental and afflictive saves, I got the hurt laid on me fast, because the damage I was dealing was nullified some, whilst he still tore into me. Just ask Zehava how much he owned Enellelisell, pre-WM, as a WM, and post-WM. He always had a good mix of saves whilst wearing the right weaponry (that will tear through an invoker's measly one defence).

For a shaman, well, it's a given as to what saves you need here. If you're an Ogre, I would aim for at least -45 mal saves, and that's only if you've got a powerful hitdam. Deteriorate, curse and that grasp spell will lower this considerably - one (or two) of those can be circumvented, if you're clever. Analyse the core shaman skillset carefully if you want to know what I mean, it's sneaky but it works a treat when fighting against shaman.

So there's just two classes, both of which will force you to have very different EQ for each fight unless you have an Uber-Suit of EQ. Now throw into that, the fact that the more saves gear you wear, generally speaking, the 'worse' you'll do against melees as you comprimise your hit/dam, and you can see the benefits of EQ switching. Don't disregard non-rare saves EQ, even though it is quite little, because you can carry a LOT of it in sacks. It's fine wearing two uber-rare necklaces that grant you tons of mental/afflictive resistance and +3 to your damroll, but when you come up against a shaman you can bet you'd be better off wearing a couple of non-rare, low level cloaks that are kept in a sack that grant you an extra -6 (or - maladective saves for the pair.

I would say, don't always be too afraid to sacrifice hitroll for saves, especially against say an Invoker, who has just one defence that you'll tear through easily enough anyway with the right weaponry.

Of course, the above is only my own experience. There are always other instances and exceptions to the rules, where it's sometimes better to cram everything into having beastly hit/dam and the like.

Play a Paladin, they can have a surprisingly high hit/dam figure even for an Elf whilst maintaining good saves, WITH most of your spare rare slots available for a couple of really good pieces of saves EQ. Plus you can cure.

Dey

[WagesofSin]

This thread is so demoralizing to me and my warrior . Playing a warrior seems too much hard work and no fun!

[Deykari]

Whilst other types of classes can focus on just/mostly defensive equipment, characters that rely on melee damage have to focus on defensive and offensive equipment - and we haven't even brought consumables into the equation. In that respect, it can be hard work, playing the balancing act.

If you can find that balance and keep ontop of consumables however, you'll find that Warriors are immensely strong. Being truly ontop of your game and keeping up with the rest requires you to be wearing tip-top EQ.

I personally am a big fan of melees over casters/cc's/rogues but they can be frustrating to play if you're constantly having to resuit and regain consumables. Played properly however, they are a force to be reckoned with. I haven't really ever done well with a melee. I just like their playstyle.

Dey