Should America be in Iraq

[Questioner]

Now, I will drink to that.

[EyeSeeU]

So shall I, A nice tall mug of Sunrise Weissbier!

[TheNewGuy]

I dare you to give me one example in the last ten years of a EU or other first world nation did something that really helped/focused on the environment.

Signing the Kyoto pact? Like, ehm... All of the EU nations! (and more or less the whole world except the US).

[elfdude]

While I do understand that it would be in the world's best interest for us to sign they Kyoto Pact, you also have to understand that america is spread out much more and we have little to no public transportation. I think its a shame that we don't have a top-flight rail system like europe. One of the biggest things about america is that we have a certain culture of driving that will be very hard to dissuade the average american from living. And don't take my previous post as a denial of guilt, I know entirely all too well that we **** up alot of ****. But I hate it when people rail and rail and rail on the US. I sure as **** don't contribute to the problem, I ride my bike everywhere I need to go, and other countries are doing just as bad as us. Take china for example, they have already overtaken us as the number one producer of greenhouse gasses and they are not showing the smallest sign of slowing down, in fact they are speeding up. Oh, and the Kyoto agreement imo isn't that important, we all need to be focusing on sustainable energy and humanitarian aide so we can get the whole world on track, not just throwing care packages which go into the coffers of the rich in hellhole countries.

[Valsgarde]

I dare you to give me one example in the last ten years of a EU or other first world nation did something that really helped/focused on the environment.

Budget: €1 890 million (2007 - 2013)

The challenges posed by the increasing natural and man-made pressures on the environment and its resources require a coordinated approach at pan-European and international levels.

What's the benefit for citizens:

We need to better understand and cope with issues such as climate change and identify environmentally friendly technologies in order to improve our management of both natural and man-made resources. The activities will address policy needs such as the sustainability impact assessments of EU policies and the follow up to the Kyoto and post-Kyoto actions on climate change.

What's the benefit for researchers:

Sustainable management of the environment and its resources requires multidisciplinary and integrated research in order to advance our knowledge on the interactions between the climate, biosphere, ecosystems and human activities. This will help us to develop new environmental technologies, tools and services.

The "Environment" programme will be implemented under the following activities and areas:

Climate change, pollution and risks

Pressures on environment and climate

Environment and health

Natural hazards

Sustainable Management of Resources

Conservation and sustainable management of natural and man-made resources and biodiversity

Management of marine environment

Environmental Technologies

Environmental technologies for observation, simulation, prevention, mitigation, adaptation, remediation and restoration of the natural and man-made environment

Protection, conservation and enhancement of cultural heritage

Technology assessment, verification and testing

Earth observation and assessment tools

Earth and ocean observation systems, monitoring methods for the environment and sustainable development

Forecasting methods and assessment tools for sustainable development

What's the benefit for industry and SMEs:

Strengthening the EU position in world markets for environmental technologies will contribute to sustainable consumption, production, delivering sustainable growth through business opportunities and improved competitiveness, while protecting our cultural and natural heritage. Special attention will be given to technologies on water supply and sanitation, on sustainable chemistry, on construction and on forestry, in association with the respective European Technology Platforms. The socio-economic dimension will influence their development and introduction to the market and their subsequent application.

source: http://ec.europa.eu/research/fp7/index_en.cfm?pg=env

That came up within like 2 minutes of searching for EU policies and agendas relating to the environment. Checkmate, thanks for playing.

And the whole huge american companies crap? Thats bs' date=' yes they use cheap labor buttttttttttttttttttttt.... where would these people be working?[/quote']

What "whole huge american companies crap"? What are you even talking about. That's so vague and unequivocably ambiguous I don't even know what you're trying to say. Be specific.

As for cheap labor - it is just yet another example of how supercorporations will scrape every last cent from the bottom of the barrel and do anything they can to cut costs. I assume our resident Swede here was citing to show just that. If they didn't work there, they'd work elsewhere. No one is forced to sell their soul to a corporation for a minimum-wage-paying 9-to-5er.

To go back to the beginning:

easy to say homeslice but everyones foreign policy pretty much sucks these days.

And this statement would be based on what. Sources cited? Examples? That's right, there are none. It's some broad, vague, hodgepodge opinion tossed together with absolutely no legs to stand on. I very well may be inclined to agree with you on this point - but the fact that it was pieced together with very likely no indepth insight or knowledge on the topic whatsoever other than the tidbids of tainted information stuffed down your gullet by Uncle Sam and Fox News is, well...dumb.

You sound like every stereotypical european/college liberal/teenager I've ever met' date=' no offense.[/quote']

Perhaps, but consider your perspective - it's because you sound just like every stereotypical uninformed neo-con ****-tossing finger-pointing Americanist.

I find it especially amusing that you didn't even try to defend the United States not partaking in the Kyoto Pact. I can only assume it's because you don't know what it is, because there's no rational excuse for not taking part in it...that is unless of course you have multibillion dollar companies paying you off to stay out of the pact so they can keep making millions daily at the expense of the rape of the Earth.

And for the record, in case the "european/college liberal/teenager" label tries to get thrown on me? I'm an American, I am a radical traditionalist and a nationalist, and I am not a teenager.

Cash?

Check?

Charge.

[elfdude]

ahahhahahahah did you just call me a neo-con? And no, I didn't defend the fact that we didn't sign it because we should have, why would I defend us for doing something dumb like that? The huge american companies I referenced were merely my response to "It could have to do with huge american companies like Nike, Coca Cola and McDonalds, and most, all the tobacco companies, exploiting the 3rd world and keeping people more or less as slaves.". They are not slaves, at least no longer. I remember in the late 80's-early 90's when they would have people that busted up "unions" in developing countries and waged in terroristic acts for people to keep on working but I doubt very much (though I have no examples with which to back this up) that it is happening anymore. And the reason I believe everyones foreign policy sucks is because there is just too much self-serving and do nothing bull**** going around the whole world right now. Everybody bitches about **** but no-one wants to get anything done. And hey homie, try not to be a douchebag when you're debating, I in no way called anyone ignorant, I would prefer if you would keep your dumb**** comments to yourself.

[elfdude]

And I am not trying to be a dick or anything, just asking you to debate in a reasonable manner so that no-one will have to shut down this debate.

[Valsgarde]

I wasn't a douchebag. I simply destroyed anything even remotely close to a "point" that you made. I'll go ahead and play the "When someone resorts to insults, it's because they've lost" card.

The degree to which I inferred slander was no greater than you did to TNG.

And I was debating in a reasonable manner. I explained my arguements, dissected them into individual points, cited sources, etc - all the while without calling people douchebags, telling them to keep their comments to themselves, or cussing excessively.

I'll go ahead and remove myself from this. I said what I had to say and this isn't going anywhere civil at all. I won't be checking this thread anymore, so if there's anything else you wanna say to me, I invite you to send a private message.

[TheNewGuy]

And hey homie' date=' try not to be a douchebag when you're debating[/quote']

Have a look in the mirror (or at your own posts) before you write that.

[elfdude]

Did no-one read my last post???

[TheNewGuy]

I did. What I tried to say was "start with yourself".

[elfdude]

I wasn't a douchebag. I simply destroyed anything even remotely close to a "point" that you made. I'll go ahead and play the "When someone resorts to insults, it's because they've lost" card.

The degree to which I inferred slander was no greater than you did to TNG.

And I was debating in a reasonable manner. I explained my arguements, dissected them into individual points, cited sources, etc - all the while without calling people douchebags, telling them to keep their comments to themselves, or cussing excessively.

I'll go ahead and remove myself from this. I said what I had to say and this isn't going anywhere civil at all. I won't be checking this thread anymore, so if there's anything else you wanna say to me, I invite you to send a private message.

I was responding to the fact that he DESTROYED all of my arguments so that I would have to be stupid to disagree!!!!

[Questioner]

Back to the post's main question...should America be in Iraq...still? Yes. Why? Because I (notice that I say I, thus obviously stating that this is my opinion) believe that without American soldiers, OUR friggin army/navy/air force, in Iraq (or any other third-world country that harbors people who are jealous of the freedom and opportunities that America offers) that:

a) The Europeans would be wiped off the face of the earth due to the muslims. Read history books people. Not neo-liberal junk. Not the news channels. Real, researched, intelligent, brimming to the back cover with many-syllabled-words-that-you-need-a-dictionary-to-read-it book. The world of Islam is not a peaceful and pot-smoking religion. It is bloody, genocidal, greedy. We cannot forget that the religion of christianity did see the crusades where both islamic and christian fundamentalists shed blood. But muslims have been doing it for centuries. Spain was almost completely conquered by the muslims for three-hundred years. They tried to eliminate the spanish by integrating their bloodlines and suppressing spanish culture. The muslims will never forget how the Spanish kicked them back out of spain. They will also never forget that greece beat their sorry butts several times, even when the odds were in their favor. They hate how Israel, where the most holy of cities lies in, is controlled by Jews. They hate the Jews. If they could, they would kill every single Jew in Israel. Muslims are not our friends.

The muslims hate, absolutely hate western civilization. They hate how western civilization would not kneel before their mighty empires (the ottoman empire, the persian empire...etc). Now they are smarter. They integrate themselves in western culture to learn more. They study in American and European universities. Then they use their knowledge to attack western civilization. When they attack us, it can be both physical and mental. Physical through the terrorism that some employ. Mental through propoganda and the indoctrination through the schools in the middle east, europe, and the western hemisphere. I had a muslim friend in my middle school before the attack on the Twin Towers. The day that it happened, we were watching the live news feed on school televisions. I will never forget how he laughed and yelled in excitement. He yelled, 'Yes, it serves you right you americans. Down with your freedom and justice. Allah is vengeful.'

You could call me a right-winged, neo-nazi, U-boat commander, republican. Whatever. In fact, when I register next year for the presidential elections, I will be a democrat. I will always be a democrat. But my heart lies with my country and our history.

[Celerity]

::shiver

funny how easily this works (don't take it too seriously...just showing how absurd the other post looks to me )

a) The middle-easterns would be wiped off the face of the earth due to the christians. Read history books people. Not neo-liberal junk. Not the news channels. Real, researched, intelligent, brimming to the back cover with many-syllabled-words-that-you-need-a-dictionary-to-read-it book. The world of Christianity is not a peaceful and pot-smoking religion. It is bloody, genocidal, greedy. We cannot forget that the religion of Islam did see the crusades where both islamic and christian fundamentalists shed blood. But Christians have been doing it for centuries. Spain was almost completely conquered by the Christians for 500 years. They tried to eliminate the spanish by integrating their bloodlines and suppressing spanish culture. The christians will never forget how the muslims kicked them out of israel. They will also never forget that the persians/turks/arabs beat their sorry butts several times, even when the odds were in their favor. They hated how israel where the most holy of cities lies in, was controlled by muslims legally. They hate the muslims. If they could, they would kill every single muslim in the world. Christians are not our friends.

The Christians hate, absolutely hate other civilizations. They hate how other civilizations would not kneel before their mighty empires (south asia, arabic world, central asia...etc). Now they are smarter. They integrate themselves in other cultures to advertise more. They don't study in other universities. Then they use their lack of knowledge to attack other civilizations. When they attack us, it can be both physical and mental. Physical through the terrorism that some employ. Mental through propoganda and the indoctrination through the schools in the world.

[TheNewGuy]

Questioners post doesn't look too absurd to me. Many people in the western world take for granted that our views of freedom and democracy is shared by everyone. Just as many people are wrong about that. For those who might even consider to think that Islam is even touching being a peace-loving religion that puts value in the human being, try this:

Read history books people. Not neo-liberal junk. Not the news channels. Real, researched, intelligent, brimming to the back cover with many-syllabled-words-that-you-need-a-dictionary-to-read-it book.

[Ex-D&Der]

Of course we should be in Iraq. Just look at the results so far!

[TheNewGuy]

Do you think withdrawing the troops will make it better? I'm not so sure... But there should be a clear program on how to stabilize the situation, so that a withdrawal would be possible.

[EyeSeeU]

I don't think were ever going to leave Iraq, and especially not after we just sold weapons/arms to all the countries around Iran. When I say things are going to get ugly in the upcoming years... that means things are going to get ugly.(Notice when I say I, it is my opinion after some deep reading into the middle east.)

[TheNewGuy]

Things definitly has the potential of going REALLY ugly, even compared to what it is right now.

[Chromatic]

Both Christianity and Islam were spread by bloodshed, Questioner. Go back farther than the crusades. Nearly all the holy christian places in Europe sit atop the former holy places of other countries. Christianity is a religion of conquerers. And while there may be good intentions by the followers, when you are led by greedy sons-of-bitches that see religion as only a means to prosper, there will be bloodshed, and much of it.

[Lexi]

If I would ever consider becoming religious, I would rather become a muslim than christian. I have the impression that the Koran is more accepting than the Bible, and I sort of like the ban on alcohol. I haven't studied either religion or had experiences that qualifies me to make statements on the subject, but it seems to me that intolerance is breeding in both camps. The Middle East culture and history is actually appealing to me a lot.

[Ex-D&Der]

Yes that was my point--see how bad it is so far, so that means we should stay!

[myrek]

I swear I am not picking on you, Melinda, but you have given me the perfect example of a point that I want to make. This is an "if the shoe fits" posting.

If I would ever consider becoming religious' date=' I would rather become a muslim than christian. I have the impression that the Koran is more accepting than the Bible, and I sort of like the ban on alcohol. [b']I haven't studied either religion or had experiences that qualifies me to make statements on the subject, but it seems to me that intolerance is breeding in both camps. The Middle East culture and history is actually appealing to me a lot.

If you don't know about a subject, don't try to give the world your informed opinion about it. While you have the right to get pissed when your country's leaders don't do things the way you want them to, you don't always have a reason. They know things you don't. They are working with people who have been doing their jobs for longer than many people on this forum have been alive. People need to quit back seat driving and Monday morning quarterbacking and let the professionals be professionals.

The older I get the more I hate the press and democracy. If you want to see something scary, watch Idiocracy. That is a terrifying movie.

And to answer the question "Should America Be in Iraq?": No, we should have carpet bombed them into the stone age and gone about our business.

[smallman]

And to answer the question "Should America Be in Iraq?": No' date=' we should have carpet bombed them into the stone age and gone about our business.[/quote']

The older I get the more I hate the press and democracy.

If you don't know about a subject' date=' don't try to give the world your informed opinion about it.[/quote']

[Chayesh]

Civility will rule within this thread or I shall carpet bomb it and go back about my business.

As for Islam being more accepting than Christianity, that's about as accurate as Enron's accounting ledgers.