sarcon Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Perhaps bring something other then minister, it is pointless. Other's who are not a evil cleric think different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grishnak Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I don't want to belittle you, and I won't pick your post apart quite so bad, but I will respond...so here goes. Minister has been changed and is now useful in a TOTALLY different way. It no longer is guaranteed lag, but it makes clerics possibly even more effective against enemies they struggled with before. EDIT:::The following was in response to the original post, which has been edited. In fact, I would make it much akin to a plague that doesn't even hurt you. Plague's main focus ISN'T pain, believe it or not. Dirt kick's main point IS, in fact, just to blind you. The subtraction to hitroll is negligable. The fact that you can't redirect and can't re-initiate IS the main use of the skill. ::::END OF (NOW) USELESS PART OF REPLY You're obviously playing a cleric and frustrated by this change, but I promise your grasp of certain tactics and possible new ones is lacking. Try and expand your horizons beyond the guaranteed easy kill/escape and look into what you can do with this skill if you already DO know how to chase. AND, when the lag does kick in now (and with good saves it WILL kick in still 3ish times throughout the duration), people with saves aren't expecting it anymore. This makes that lag much more valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calron Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Have you played a cleric since the change Grishnak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyeSeeU Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I think you need to play a good cleric, firstly because evil clerics still have an advantage that good clerics can't do... and its not just minister/sermon. I think the change is fine in all honesty. Sermon is still able to land and it can still screw over people because you still can't do something with your mana when it does land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewGuy Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 First off, this belongs in the ideas section. Second, minister is NOT pointless. It's just useful in a new way. It's more for screwing regen than for lagging. (Though it still CAN lag). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyeSeeU Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Thats what I was pointing to, but thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Criminal Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Wanna hear something funny? When I played Trigomonis, no idea of the shear amount of kills I got and I did not use minister. Wanna know why? I had no idea that it did anything useful like lag, I used to think it was a mana regen thing and hell, some mage was gonna out mana gain me, woopie! I chased like crazy, I knew hiding spots, I ran people out of moves, used different tactics that did NOT involve lag because in my mind at that time clerics didnt lag. So now we have a generation of clerics who soley depend on lag and kills, you know what? Clerics are NOT supposed to be killing machines, that came from the mouth of Viri wAaAay back. There were two nasty ones that started the evil cleric reign, Xavious then Trig. When good clerics had minister BEFORE the evil clerics, there was not one who dominated and I dont even think they used the spell, but that was then. Clerics were meant to be priests that everyone wanted in thier group to take to winter and stuff, now they are mass healing, wear you down killing machines. Sorry your super survival class cant have the best of both worlds in the name of balance. UC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyeSeeU Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I remember Trig, he was BAD***, I used to want to be BAD*** like him with Rae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goru Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I was fighting two clerics today. both in savant and i have got to admit.. when they could actually land it on me not once did I lag however that no mana re-gain sorta almost makes up for it.. maybe just a little tweaking it needs if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoreal Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 You played Rae? The halfling warrior chaos duud? Trigomonis was my hero! the hooded figure! I began to play here when Trigomonis was still hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grishnak Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Have you played a cleric since the change Grishnak? No I haven't but I've fought against enough clerics to understand the usefulness of the spell now. I wasn't going to spell it out, but since everyone else decided to share I'll go ahead... First: I don't know whether minister now lands initially easier or not, but I don't think it matters. Second: The lag on ticks is now subject to a save check. In my experience, with average (I'm not talking decked, I'm talking -30 to -45 svmental) saves, you will fail between 1 and 4 of the saves. Third: Minister's duration was increased. I want to say 9 hours (10 ticks) is where it usually comes in at, but I could be wrong. Fourth: You cannot regen mana at all while under the effect of minister, regardless of save checks. Now, with those points spread out: Yes, you've lost a four round guaranteed lag at the beginning of each tick. What you've gained is 10 (compared to 5 or 6) ticks where an opponent CAN NOT regen mana. This cannot be cured by any normal means. How does this change the face of clerics? Battlemages, hitherto, have dominated clerics. Manalock and damage output make a cleric battlemage battle a tough, tough fight. Not a single battlemage in existence can put up with 10 ticks where they aren't getting any mana. Land minister and you've at worst forced a flee, and a good tracker will keep up or find their enemy while they're weak. Other C/C classes (ones that you can dispel). 10 Ticks of no regen plus a dispel = screwed. I don't care if you have 1000+ mana. You can't possibly keep up protective spells (sanctuary, prot. shield, etc) and use your mana for damage. It's simply not viable. Invokers are the exception because they can still regen hp, and hp = mana. Hopefully you'll find a way to negate that, too. This especially hurts certain hybrids. Melees don't have much mana, but they use it (especially after becoming caballed) still. You take away healing options for many melees, and you take away frequently used cabal spells. Now, aside from the mana regen factor (which I still haven't explored all of, but I don't want to give you all the secrets) you still DO have a chance at lagging your opponent on the tick. Since it's no longer guaranteed, though, your opponent (especially if they have nice saves) isn't always going to be expecting it. This is a beautiful opportunity for you. If I'm expecting lag at the start of every tick I'm fighting with that in mind. I'm fleeing and getting a few rooms away right before each tick just for starters. (Let's not talk about prepping for consumable re-use under that strain) Now, if I'm on the offensive and feel like I have the edge under the current rules, I can definitely see myself getting caught in the moment with minister on me and keeping up the fight. That lag kicks in and I catch four paths to the face. That's 4 paths I wouldn't have caught as a veteran player under the old system. At most a very fast opponent would have been able to catch up and hit me with 2 (and that's only if I timed the tick very poorly, in a one-way area). All that said, I don't think I need to play a cleric post-change to recognize that it's a totally different spell with a totally different (albeit closer to the original) purpose. When Viri designed the spell, he saw it as a defensive spell to allow a cleric to step a few rooms away and throw on a few heals. It only later came to be used as an offensive tactic as well. This new version of the spell suits the original purpose much better, in my mind. It doesn't lag the opponent, so they may keep up as you flee and cure, but what it does do is make your opponent much more squeamish (incapable) when it comes to giving chase. I'm not chasing someone as a caster unless they are VERY hurt if I can't regen mana. There are all sorts of new applications for the spell, you just have to adapt and adjust. Those of us who have been here since FL wasn't even called FL, and Aabahran was still Thera, can all attest to that being the essence of survival in this game. It's not worth complaining about, especially when there are obvious uses for the change. Adapt or play a new class. Those are your choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telufial Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 well put grishnak. I have recently played an evil cleric, and I can say that i am disappointed that sermon was changed, but I do understand there are entirely new applications for it, and for the longer duration, and negation of mana regen for that extended length of time, you can take on a whole new breed of opponent with an entirely different, more 'attrition' based battle tactic. which, imho is much more 'cleric-like' combat. More comprable to shamans now.. gotta give chase, gotta wear em down and catch em when they are weak. most other casters have to do this, why should clerics have the strongest lag skill in the game? 4 rounds of lag at every tick is hands down THE BEST lag for any class that exists. It's gauranteed lag, guaranteed timing. WAY to powerful for a communing cleric, your outlagging giant warriors with bash/bodyslam.. this is a much more realistic depiction for clerics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexi Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 However, against poorly equipped characters or vulnerable races minister basically received a longer duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iyorvin Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I've pinned every religion cleric. I can name you the effects of bless arms, bless, divine intervention, and holy hands of every religion. This change does one very simple thing in my mind; makes non combat/discord clerics a viable choice now. Yes, now you can't just stack defenses/hit/dam and outmelee/cast people while they are lagged. Big loss. You're a friggin cleric. All of a sudden death religion and attrition clerics will be back, right resuvan? Lol. You take away lag completely from minister and you STILL have a useful class. 10 * 40 mana per tick = 400 mana with no regen. This means: Invoker will have to cast mystic tendrils probably 4 times as a fae = 120-160 damage over 10 hours, with no regen(running fae voker isn't going to be healing). Drow/elf will be 5 times = 140-180 damage. All other races, probably 6+ = 160-200+ damage. Average suit for mage = 800 hp, meaning on average 1/4 hp of an invoker during attrition battle. Battlemages this means: Low timer on spells, medium spell cost, spell upkeep, with 400 mana gone. Average battlemage mana pool = 1200, average upkeep cost = 50-100 mana. In ten hours that means 500-1000 + 400 = 900-1400 mana. Meaning even a fae couldn't CAST on you in an attrition battle. Get faster. Blm average total mana = 500. No explaination required. Getting the math? Because YOUR current cleric combo isn't the powerhouse it once was, does not mean another combo won't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I do not see how pushing Sermon to 10 tics, under powering clerics. As i see it is overpowered to have them drain 400 mana from PC's without even a chance to cure it or regen it. At least plague can be cured, this cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchaeius Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 For the umpteenth time, let us go through the thought process. Step by step. - Clerics (i.e. Casters and Communers in general) should not have a reliable lagging method. - Minister, once it landed, was a reliable lag. - Each tick, on the tick, you were guaranteed to catch the person for four rounds of combat. - Being that spells drop on the tick, it was very easy to catch people without sanctuary and load them up with 4 unprotected paths of deceit. - Further considering that most classes that cannot cast sanctuary will most likely be using items such as vials, they will not outlast the sermon affect. - Considering the combination of sermon with another spell that we will not discuss (i.e. Do not be stupid and try to show off that you know what spell I am talking about, and consequently discussing it - because that will make me angry. If you do know the spell in question, good for you. If you do not, do not worry about it). Now considering the combination with that spell, you have a cleric that can lag and force you to fight at a major disadvantage. Furthermore, Next to healers, Clerics are the most survivable class in the game. Combine that with their potential for offense and the bottom line is that Clerics, like all Casters and Communers, barring qraces, should not have a reliable lagging method - now they do not. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarcon Posted August 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Well put. Very very well put. It would be good to see Minister removed all together and replaced with something else. I vote for Enfeeble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewGuy Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Enfeeble? Go roll a shaman if you want it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-D&Der Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Trigomonis usually hit me with minister. Even nearly killed my halfling due to that fugging spell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calron Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Used it regularly on my goodie paladin as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 You can have high offense and low survivability. You can have high survivability, and low offense. You can have medium survivability, and medium offense. You can't have high survivability and high offense, which is what evil clerics had previously. This is called balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tantangel Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I agree whole heartedly with the change to the spell. To be honest I think Clerics shouldn't be allowed to even go Temporum in Savant, but that's just my opinion. The change doesn't make it completely useless as already stated, it in fact opens up the amount of people you could PK before to an even wider range now. Fighting BMGs used to be a pain in the *** as a Cleric, hell I fought Elloran on mine and if that change to minister had gone through before I fought him, I probably would've had a much easier time bringing him down with his lack of regening mana. To be honest though I like the change a lot more with a moderately saves character than I did before, as before it landed first try every try and lagged successfully on the tick every tick. Now you actually have to put some effort into the kill and be decent at chasing in order to get the kill if you really want it. Enfeeble would be going over the top giving it to Clerics, they have minister which is useful in other ways. If people can't get over that, then stop playing your Clerics and play something else. Or if you really want to have them get something, come up with the idea of it and make sure it's creative and useful but not so overly useful like Minister was that it becomes a reliable source of something offensive to make them powerful again. This was a change that's been coming since at least 1.0 when people figured out the usefulness of minister. It was far too strong and far too ridiculous of a skill for a class that was already more survivable than everything else out there aside from Healers. It's not like it's very hard for a Cleric to PK without it either, I managed without using it a ton and found it easier to PK people without trying to land it on someone because I used what I could to my advantage. Proved the point of the character to myself that I was trying to make to myself and then I deleted because I honestly didn't think that the PK and RP aspects of Savant needed to be over the top. Always saw Savant more of a knowledgeable group of people who used their heads more than they used any brute force of any kind. But I'm rambling and I think I forgot my point to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Criminal Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Trigomonis usually hit me with minister. Even nearly killed my halfling due to that fugging spell. Used it regularly on my goodie paladin as well. [end quotes] If Trig used it, I swear it was because I had nothing to cast and just wanted to add an affect, hehe, I promise and swear to god I had no idea it lagged, hehe. UC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Criminal Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Oh and PS: If I played a shaman, I would trade enfeeble for minister anyday, hehe. Do you know kind of sick drain minister and plague would be, plus a 4 round lag each tick if your not mental saved out the bum? Just gross. UC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archgold Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 lol add a deterioate into that and you'll have crazy shi* going down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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