Healthy discussion about ferals.

I had about 860 as Zix. Some of my stuff was 1 practiced, I spent more on MV and Mana than I did on anything else.

I had in the high 800's with Faulch as well. But then I come from the old school where we watch what we are wearing when we gain a new title. Also, Faulch had the Healthy Perk not sure if that helped since its the Unlucky perk that claims higher HP.

Healthy has nothing to do with having more HP at pinn

You are looking for stout/unlucky indeed.

Ferals were created while the fireball code was 'bugged'. If the fireball code was bugged' date=' I'd imagine the ferals are slightly bugged, vuln wise. Fix it![/quote']

Ferals were created before Viri toned the Fire based spells.

The change was Due to massive complaints about feral combustion.

I believe Fire saves are not as in the old days, where you got what appeared to be a classic D&D save for half the damage, but diferent.

You probably just cannot save more than X% of the damage now. Something that you could a month back, and that made Fireball stupid cause Vuln races could take ridiculous little damage.

Bottom line is this. Two classes get fireball. Two. Ferals can easily outdamage both (if you equip properly). Now this actually gives ferals something to be careful about. Feral blms are espescially nasty since you can spelkill fireball, and if they use fire shield, you use fire lance for even more damage. Also add in that you can disarm anything to get rid of all those nasty mean fire weapons, I do not see a problem with Ferals. As a race, only worrying about 2 classes is laughable at best. I would think that a fire giant wth a fire lance fighting a feral ranger would be much much worse damage wise.

Bottom line is this. Two classes get fireball. Two. Ferals can easily outdamage both (if you equip properly). Now this actually gives ferals something to be careful about. Feral blms are espescially nasty since you can spelkill fireball' date=' and if they use fire shield, you use fire lance for even more damage. Also add in that you can disarm anything to get rid of all those nasty mean fire weapons, I do not see a problem with Ferals. As a race, only worrying about 2 classes is laughable at best. I would think that a fire giant wth a fire lance fighting a feral ranger would be much much worse damage wise.[/quote']

you forget pallies flamestrike, and flaming arrows, flame arrow itself, and then theres fireball that you mentioned. A feral BLM may be able to disarm any fire weapon, but any other class cant.

you forget pallies flamestrike' date=' and flaming arrows, flame arrow itself, and then theres fireball that you mentioned. A feral BLM may be able to disarm any fire weapon, but any other class cant.[/quote']

I fought teladrien countless times to standstills that lasted hours long. Pallies as a class are not something i was worrying about as a feral blm.

Fury helps negate flamestrike from my experience, and saves affect it MUCH better, same with flame arow. i would take lacerates/mutilates at best from those spells with proper affl saves for a vuln race. Most of the other feral choices may not remove weapons, but they can deal with them. Thieves pry, clerics heal, shamans land hystera (I still say feral shaman would be boss) ninjas can blind weaken and poison. Honestly I cannot think of any noremove fire weapons except maybe a certain sword with one of two socket items in it.

Paladins Flamestrike was never touched back in the day. At least from my experience. If it was, you would had heard me complaining a lot.

Paladins Flamestrike was never touched back in the day. At least from my experience. If it was' date=' you would had heard me complaining a lot. [/quote']

Since when does flamestrike go through spell turning?

Since when does flamestrike go through spell turning?

Xaxaxa now that's a serious burn

You obviously are not aware of my Kick and Flails debate...

I didn't always play Clerics, I used to play Paladins a lot. In fact "Mya" is the name of my first Paladin here.

The fact that Flamestrike and Wrath do not go through spell shield is why I asked Kick for Paladins. Sometimes you have nothing to do as a Paladin vs a Cleric.

And Flails would give Paladins a decent dual wield weapon, instead of having to resort to Swords or exotics. Since the availability of a light mace of decent is average damage is reserved for the "end game" maces.

And Flails would give Paladins a decent dual wield weapon' date=' instead of having to resort to Swords or exotics.[/quote']

Ah look how innocent she looks while we all know why she choose flails

How can you possible not love her

There is something else paladins can do to knock down spell turning shield Mya.

when did this stop being about ferals and start being about feral blademasters?

Some time before it was all about mya and her paladins

Wow - lots of varied opinions here.

I haven't played a feral to lvl 50 - but I did rank a few into the 30s to see how they played. I suggest considering the following:

Melee:

• Fire weapons are common. High damage fire weapons are not extremely common - but anything that hits vuln does hurt. Smart opponents will be onto this eveytime you fight - as they should.

• Ferals have SUPER defenses. 24 dex and 103 in parry, dual parry, and doge (I think that's all?). The fact that fire weapons are so common doesn't mean as much as everyone things - sure they singe kitty's fur but you will have issue hitting them.

• Most fireweapons can be disarmed - so you're issues are compounded if you face off a feral who can disarm - more notabely a warrior. They only have to get through a few rounds (with their super defense) and they will rid you of your fire weapons. The good news is you can have a sackful of fire weapons (many non-rare) and keep being the singing going. Mostly though, I imagine four to six disarms would fix most players up nicely.

• Despite disarms and super defense - when you get tagged by a fire weapon (it is going to happen) you will sting. There is no way around this - you're going to smell what the Rock is cooking: Feral.

• 'Mini-haste' as its known allow ferals more offense. This assist with damage output (obviously). So while ferals take more damage they are capable of putting than a 'normal' (human is normal baseline usually) race.

• Considering the extra offense and better defenses I'd be surprised if ferals weren't around even (probably just under which I suggest is intended) on damage taken from fire weapons. They will hit you more (mini-haste) and defend more (24 dex, better defenses). Note: Like all vulns if your opponent makes the mistake of NOT taking advantage you are way, way, WAY ahead as you've gained something at zero cost (in that battle). For everyone who gets it wrong ferals get free milage - and lets be honest, there is a LOT of perks for ferals to get milage out of.

Spells

• The often lameted fury is the very first thing that springs to mind here. It makes it harder for you to cast. So even though you get better damage you get it less often.

• Then there is mini-haste allowed the feral to beat you up that much more while you're fooling around attempting to cast firespells.

• Again - it won't be a perfect trade but I think ferals probably make out just under even (whichis the idea to balance perks).

Arrows:

• Oh fired weapons - either you're using them to really make people's life difficult or you're on the receiving end and have NFI what to do.

• As usual, anyone with scrolls is immune. You can count out the classes here - I think only feral warriors, rangers and blademasters suffer here?

• Warriors and blademasters can eliminate this threat if they so desire.

• Warriors and rangers get return fire to assist with damage - though as fire arrows (are these even available in high damage to non-caballed people or non-rangers - my lack of knowledge is showing....) may give a slight advantage to their opponent. A 'shoot-out' is probably not in a ferals best interest here.

• Fortunately with good defense and mini-haste I think a feral stands a good chance of engaging (assuming eq and other factors are used correctly) and breaking even or better due to their perks. If not, well, I don't think they are THAT far behind and that is assuming someone is perfectly setup to take you. In the end I've noticed (having recently played a vuln race other than feral) so many people either can't be bothered preparing or don't know what to do. In these cases if you've playing to your advantages it becomes crushing as your opponent isn't going for your disadvantages that offset these.

I think the feral race is unique as they have so many advantages when they come hard they seem VERY strong. However, they can fall fast due to a common vuln and easy access to almost all characters (I think I can name a weapons of every class that does fire damage...). To me this makes them a powerful, high risk, high reward race. If that's not your cup of tea maybe they aren't for you.

L-A

You obviously are not aware of my Kick and Flails debate...

I didn't always play Clerics, I used to play Paladins a lot. In fact "Mya" is the name of my first Paladin here.

The fact that Flamestrike and Wrath do not go through spell shield is why I asked Kick for Paladins. Sometimes you have nothing to do as a Paladin vs a Cleric.

And Flails would give Paladins a decent dual wield weapon, instead of having to resort to Swords or exotics. Since the availability of a light mace of decent is average damage is reserved for the "end game" maces.

If you want to make like a necromancer and revie the old thread this discussion probably goes there - but if you're whole argument for paladins getting flails is that you get stuck vs one class (which I dont think is actually true) its pretty weak.

As for nothing to do: charge is always available.

L-A

Let's not argue Paladins limitations.

Feral and fireball adjustment is so much pleasant.

I found your input very balanced L.A. . Ferals are not underpowered, if at all, they are overpowering to classes who cannot take advantage of their vulnerability like ... Clerics, Shamans, Necromancers and Good Battlemages.

I thought there was a flaming hammer, I know there is a flaming flail, and a particularly nasty flaming whip. Combine that with flaming daggers, spears, staffs, pole-arms, and swords, and I am fairly certain any and all classes have access to a feral vuln weapon. Providing the agressor is not feral themselves. Maybe you meant Mya that Clerics, Shamans, Necromancers and Good Battlemages have no built in advantage vs. the feral race. This by no means makes the feral overpowered, but as you said they can be "overpowering".

Can only speak from experience, but I had a harder time playing a feral ranger than any other ranger race I have tried except half-elf. Defense, I found a halfling was significantly better, due to the higher dex. For instance against a necro, wielding a lance of imbalance, I could pretty much ignore the zombies and was on the hunt all the time. With a feral, you would get hit a lot, plus you're susceptible to all the spells. Offense, didn't seem to make much difference against PCs, and with low str (mine also went down to 18 with aging--I guess this doesn't happen any more) and limited weapon selection was peanuts compared to an ogre. With an ogre with ordinary equipment and just a decent rare two-handed axe and flail I could do multiple MUTILATES or whatever to well-equipped c/c's. No you couldn't fury them, but so what? Also never noticed more than 6 staff attacks with a feral. Vuln--this would hurt against certain clerics, invokers, fire giants bash or bodyslam, rangers with flaming arrows. Against other races, small size was a serious problem. And low hp was a problem in general. My feral had lower hp than any other ranger except half-elf and elf, combined with smaller size, lower mana (due to athletic perk perhaps), low str, and it was really tough to do much. Yes this could have been covered up with eq and cabal, and with certain ranger paths and cabal skills, it could be very dangerous, but just speaking of the race itself, it's really not that great.