Valadis Kylvoklo(sp?)

[Evangelion]

Ogre regen was never overpowered. People just complained to much.

Just like someday, half-elves will get toned, because all the other races have been toned so much, that they're power houses.

Anyway, all sarcasm aside, Warmaster is a completely viable cabal. It just has some problems that, as of right now, make it VERY difficult to get started. It is, hands down, the most difficult cabal to be in (I feel I can say this, having been in every cabal but one), due to the exacting standards of RP, as well as the difficulty of obtaining promotions, and the inductee vulnerability.

Your first ten hours (at the very least) can be very discouraging, and when Savant is full, or contains even one active, powerful member, your life is going to be a living hell, and most people won't make it past inductee.

[Calron]

People that don't make it past inductee shouldn't be in any cabal at all. Considering there is no loss aside from equipment which can be gained easily, that is completely up to the drive and determination of the player.

[Evangelion]

Take a look at Rhankhakta's record.

Getting slaughtered mercilessly over and over again can be VERY disheartening, ESPECIALLY if it's accompanied by a constant full loot.

Edit: Sorry, this wasn't meant as a dig at Rhankhakta. But Jevrax is on their 20 times, 19 of which I happen to know Rhan was an inductee. That would be pretty damn discouraging.

[L-A]

Why would you be accepting challenges from a vendetta'd cabal as an inductee? You're stupid - that's why. Use the ignore command already.

I will also point out up until recently Evil Temporum Cleric - specifically Jevrax - had it very, very, very, very, very easy in killing people. Espeically Warmasters. That has now changed.

If you want to say its your 'RP' never to refuse a challenge - that's fine. Your 'PK' will consist of every low-life out there challenging you to pad their PK record with easy kills. If that sounds like you then go for it. Don't complain about WM being too hard though as you're mostly doing it to yourself.

I have had Warmasters before - one a Leader. I never accepted challenges unless I wanted to fight the person. If I had a standard to retrieve, you got ignored. Fighting someone else? Ignored. Its not bad RP - it was my characters RP. Its also sensible RP - remember tha line in 'help death:' "Death is to be avoided at all costs." If you start taking that seriously instead of knowing you have 60 lives it might be a bit easier for you.

Now as to the issue of Warmasters and CPs - I see this as a Gladiator issue only. Barbarians do not need any of their powers at all and just like any other cabal where a member has 0cps you shouldn't have access to them.

As for Gladiators - I agree that CP gain is slow due to the 'must uses' for the cabal. HOWEVER - WM is the only cabal that can gain cps for challenges. Win, lose or draw you can gain CPs and gain them very, very quickly if you know what you are doing. Gladiators have on call what every single other melee (including Barbarians) has to travel around and collect. They will never run out. This is a big, BIG, BIG advantage in many scenario's.

When I was a Gladiator I didn't think it such a big deal - I know realise it is. If you don't believe me go and put 300 hours on a Glad warrior/berserker then roll up another warrior/berserker, get caballed and see how much harder you'll find it.

WM isn't the basket case you are all making it out to be - it really isn't. It is harder to extract the same amout of power from a WM than the same race/class in other cabals - however I believe this has more to do with the lack of tactics WMs have access too via usable items then the powers that the cabal gives them. I believe this should be fixed for Barbarians. Glads will never have access to these sort of tactics - they get a whole new set of tactics due to all their 'automatic' skills. It just takes time to learn how to best employ them AND to get the necessary equipment.

L-A

[sarcon]

6000 is the highest for me. I really wanna get to the 10,000 marker.

However, when it comes to WM's if you know what you are doing (and have decent armor)... You will own. Period.

I well skilled blademaster, warrior, berserker and ranger will own.

Just being smart when fighting, and as we all know that just takes time.

I am still getting kicks out of fighting blademasters and them not having the slightest clue of what to really do when it comes to managing there critical strikes along with cabal skills.

Yet we all know with practise makes perfect.

[EyeSeeU]

LA, once again well done. I would have to agree with just about everything except the win loose or draw part in gaining cps in challenges, because if the challenge is a draw then you dont gain/loose anything, because there was no winner ofcourse.

I have also played a lot of Warmasters myself, both Glads and Barbs and I would also have to say barbs need to be able to use more usables, glads are fine though.

[HBwillie]

you can't learn from a draw?

[Segoy]

Well Sarcon, honestly, please make one and do it.

Ok time to address a few things here and I would like to point out I have been in every cabal but Knight (because I don't really play goodies). I have had an Undead Cleric with a 63-3 PK Record in Savant.

Now Sarcon, honestly I would love to see you do it with a Zerker I really would.

Lay-About's comment were to the point and pretty much sum up the situation. Gladiator is almost a disadvantage rather than what a cabal should be which is an increase in strength with the responsibility of activity.

Most Gladiator skills until trusted only replace what you have lost being a gladiator, not much more. (Please delete this if it reveals too much).

Lets have a look at the (by reputation) most powerful chars in the realm at the moment.

Jevrax, Byrsyphyrus (however the spelling), Lotho (not joking if your evil), Drayson, Donian kinda. You can argue all you want but these are the current guys I would not want to fight with Therask.

Now maybe it is my class but notice the similarity...All casters.

My argument is that for instance, Ogre's weren't necessarily overpowered. Instead, melee's are underpowered slightly in general. Yes they are easier to play and aren't that hard to survive with...but killing with them has gotten harder. A credit to the playerbase for getting better...but here is why.

Berserker example...ooooh haymaker, headbutt...scary skills!!! Why? Why are they scary....haymaker, two round lag, if it lands, the caster has atleast one round to be gone and heal up using all the staves, wands, scrolls and spells they can muster. Headbutt, flee, run around for an hour while for instance minister or poison or plague or dysintery etc etc is hurting them.

You can disagree if you wish. But after a two year hiatus it has become increasingly clear to me that the reason Melee's were very dangerous 2 years ago was because most casters were idiots and spammed or didn't get out of there quick enough and didn't know how to run like most do these days.

I will post a follow up on this depending on the feedback.

[L-A]

Lay-About's comment were to the point and pretty much sum up the situation. Gladiator is almost a disadvantage rather than what a cabal should be which is an increase in strength with the responsibility of activity.

I think you misread my post - Gladiators are not in any way 'underpowered' IMHO. They require a different mindset from every other cabal because they are geared towards making almost everything 'automatic.'

Think of it like this:

The warrior class is at its most powerful when you see a warrior beat the living hell out of someone. There doesn't seem a real reason for it - the warrior walks in (like the million warriors before him) and procedures to knock the caster or communer into the middle of next week. If you look at the log the warrior is just hitting him. Then hitting him some more. Then hitting him some more. There isn't much the caster/communer can do except get hit.

What you don't see is that the warrior spent 2+ hours teraing around the realms like an idiot gathering the consumbles they needed (more than just vials I assure you). You don't see the warrior spending 5-10 hours gathering all the eq they need. You don't see the hundreds of hours the player has spent learning the realms. Nor the hundreds of hours learning how to PK.

All you see is the warrior belting someone up.

How is the relevant to Gladiators? Gladiators take the 'setup before you fight' one step further. To get the most out of a Gladiator you must have the correct eq, the knowledge of how to PK, knowledge of the skills and what they do. If you are not truly setup its quite hard as the cabal skills that Gladitators receive are NOT designed to give you a way to 'prop' yourself up like many of the other cabals (Syndicate being the notable exception).

Glads are scary to fight when set right - they are like a 20 foot man in a spiked suit of dragon armor. He is big, he is going to hurt you and no matter what you do you cannot seem to hurt him. This is how I see Gladiators.

I think the issue many players run into is the 'ease of play' Gladiators vs the 'biggest badass in the lands' Gladiators. Gladiators are inherently easier to play than melees in any other cabal. However - the gulf between a player getting some milage out of 'easy to play' and becoming a truly strong Gladiator is vast. Very, very vast.

Well played Gladiators are almost unstoppable.

Most Gladiator skills until trusted only replace what you have lost being a gladiator' date=' not much more.[/quote']

Three skills replace what you have lost. THREE out of seven powers I can think of at Trusted. With these three sklils you also gain:

1) Infinite access to the two more important consumables for melees.

2) Immunity to what is argubly the MOST devastating mage/communer spell (don't even ask for more specifics if you can't figure it out).

Gladiators don't make out so badly at all.

Of your other four powers:

1) Two skills that usually require valuable combat rounds can be made automatic.

2) You can hit other players on certain defenses and/or other skills/attacks.

3) You gain access to certian maledictions that 99% of melee's have no way of ever getting. You gain this on call. One of these is roughly equivilant to a Syndicate ability that is used to track down players.

Glads don't do so badly. I believe there are weaknesses in the cabal - they are no different to 1.0. With FL being a different game perhaps these weaknesses should be eliminated, however, that is not a conversation we can have here.

The rest of the pain is that Glads are probably more reliant on equipment. This is a REAL problem IMHO because the gulf between a player in non-rare and rare equipment is now SO LARGE - let me reiterate how big this gulf is:

It is

THIS BIG.

Its actually bigger but that is the biggest I can make the font

I have been trying to fight players with eq when I haven't had great wares due to availability and the fact I don't player 6 hour days. Its hard. I have been fighting players who spam 1 spells and have been able to overcome me. I've seen other enter no other command but dirt and try as I might- I simply cannot deal enough damage without a rare suit.

Players have simply learned to get better and better eq faster and those without some sort of 'better' eq are not able to easily compete.

In a subcabal like Gladiator this is maginified as they need eq to get properly setup so they can make proper use of the powers and therefore compete.

I don't have the answers aside from another eq 'balance' which would either depower a great deal of rare or 'empower' most of the non-rare eq.

L-A

[killalou]

Three skills replace what you have lost. THREE out of seven powers I can think of at Trusted. With these three sklils you also gain:

1) Infinite access to the two more important consumables for melees.

2) Immunity to what is argubly the MOST devastating mage/communer spell (don't even ask for more specifics if you can't figure it out).

Gladiators don't make out so badly at all.

L-A

1) True, but at the cost of cp's/cp's regain

2) I will agree with you on this

Of your other four powers:

1) Two skills that usually require valuable combat rounds can be made automatic.

2) You can hit other players on certain defenses and/or other skills/attacks.

3) You gain access to certian maledictions that 99% of melee's have no way of ever getting. You gain this on call. One of these is roughly equivilant to a Syndicate ability that is used to track down players.

L-A

1.) Problem with this is that it is dependent on two factors. First of all is cp's. Second that IF it lands AND succeeds. Let me assure you it is not as good as the real thing.

2.) Yes....this is their staple for the cabal. But like #1 that is IF it lands and succeeds. Sure the potential is there, but in realality you can rely on it. Also, all the other cabals get abilities you can RELAY on especially savants. With glads, its a probability game.

3.) This is the same as #2. But you must also relizes a lot of weapons in the game do these maledictions and do it more frequently then taking the time to call this skill. I just rather get the weapons.

The rest of the pain is that Glads are probably more reliant on equipment. This is a REAL problem IMHO because the gulf between a player in non-rare and rare equipment is now SO LARGE - let me reiterate how big this gulf is:

It is

THIS BIG.

Its actually bigger but that is the biggest I can make the font

I have been trying to fight players with eq when I haven't had great wares due to availability and the fact I don't player 6 hour days. Its hard. I have been fighting players who spam 1 spells and have been able to overcome me. I've seen other enter no other command but dirt and try as I might- I simply cannot deal enough damage without a rare suit.

Players have simply learned to get better and better eq faster and those without some sort of 'better' eq are not able to easily compete.

In a subcabal like Gladiator this is maginified as they need eq to get properly setup so they can make proper use of the powers and therefore compete.

I don't have the answers aside from another eq 'balance' which would either depower a great deal of rare or 'empower' most of the non-rare eq.

L-A

Bingo. That and gladiators arent suited to fight multiple different classes (well mages and communers, melees tend to be sort of the same).

For example problem lies fighting Jevrax but then oh crap Tezdal comes along now I have to change eq. But this eq is sucks when fighting Jevrax. Then along comes Maag who requires a totally different set. All at the same time the prepartion is HUGE. Not to mention I cant hold that many spare rares and my inventory gets packed with different non-rare eq and consumables. I swear if Valadis didnt have camouflage, high save vs. mal, and didnt flee as fast I would die more often.

[Segoy]

Oh and I think LA has forgotten what Blademasters can do.

[L-A]

killalou: IMHO, fighting and evil cleric and invoker as a Glad will require mostly the same prep: -40sva, good hit dam. The only difference I see is weapontype and burnproof.

Add a necro and bmage to the mix and I'd be getting my svmal to -30 as well.

So: three pieces of eq will give the requisite -sva and -svmaled saves once warcry is factored in (-30 on each). Carry two rares for upping -svmental (to -30) as needed (on the same slots as the other saves eq from what I remember). The rest of eq is put into hit/dam/damage items depending on how you like it. That leaves 4 slots + 2 wielded for weapons (more if you employ doublesheath) - so you need 2 burnproof for invoker killing, 2 for communer waxing, 1 for bmage wiping and a spare slot for weapon to combat the class/character you find the most trouble. If you took doublesheath you get two more so you could conceiablely carry more weapons, a sheild or more saves eq.

I know its easy to say and hard to get the eq so you have to juggle at times - however, melee's are based around the eq and its not fair to compare balance without it.

Bear in mind possession of such a set of equipment will mean that you are able to fight and kill almost anyone in the lands. As a Glad you can almost always be setup. Anyone who you can't kill outright the other Glad abilities will probably allow you some sort of edge if you're clever. At the very worse you'll be able to hurt the other person badly and make a hasty esacpe.

Segoy: No idea what you're on about.

[Segoy]

Sorry, should have fleshed it out. I believe a few of the effects you spoke of can be done by Blademasters not in Warmaster.