What's wrong with Berserkers?

[BigPapa]

I don't ever see anyone playing one up in the Pinn range. What's wrong and how can it be fixed?

[Tantangel]

Therask is a pinned Zerk. They just usually have to work harder to get their kills than other classes. On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being the hardest and 10 being the easiest I'd say Zerks are somewhere around 1. Anyone guess which is close to 10 that isn't a qclass?

[mya]

Evil clerics ?

[smallman]

Shamans.

(or ninjas)

[TheNewGuy]

evil clerics do, now. Shaman, well, you have to land a whole lot. So, it takes work, for sure. Ninja... Takes work to get that study.

[TheNewGuy]

Wait, wait... I got it! BLADEMASTER!

(feel the hatred in you, Bali. Give yourself to the dark side of the force. Flame!)

disclaimer: these forums are not heat-proof. keep away from flames.

[Guest emp_newb]

Ogre Ranger

[Pieman]

Savant Drow BMG?

[Kyzarius]

evil clerics do' date=' now. Shaman, well, you have to land a whole lot. So, it takes work, for sure. Ninja... Takes work to get that study.[/quote']

Shamans are not easy to kill with, takes a lot of persistence and prior planning imho. I still say that after playing a shaman to nexus elder.

Necromancers. Man, a necromancer is easy to kill with...you just have to get the zombies. Yes a good player will fight you off, and if prepared kick your butt. Most though crumble under the barrage of lag and damage that a crew of even just the lvl 48 zombie brings. Which is easy, a poorly dressed illithid can raise 3 zombies alone with powerword (trust me).

[Evangelion]

Wait, wait... I got it! BLADEMASTER!

(feel the hatred in you, Bali. Give yourself to the dark side of the force. Flame!)

disclaimer: these forums are not heat-proof. keep away from flames.

Why don't you go back to doing what you Swedes are good at...

Oh wait... you're already doing nothing productive...

Hmmm... go cry yourself to sleep.

[L-A]

A few of us had a bit of a discussion abuot this a while ago relating to a post I put up:

What Berserkers need!!!

Why aren't there more berserkers at pinnacle? Bascially, berserkers have inherent problems in the class vs class matchup. For example:

Berserkers are weak to melee classes - anyone with a staff and pugil can and will kill you without using a single vial of sanctuary.

Hybrids with high offense (DK, vampire) are also damned hard to deal with as they have so much offense and defend slightly better. In a straight up to the death battle I was unable to kill either DKs or vampires as a berserker.

On the plus side:

You can dispatch any invoker who so much as looks sideways at you. This also goes for psions who are classed as 'mental invokers' when you are a zerk.

No thief or ninja will be able to do anything to a raged, dual flail wielding, bodyslamming berserker.

No paladin will be able to do anything but try to run you out of sanc and charge you to death. A raged, dual flali berserker with haymaker will rain on an paladin's parade 9/10 times.

Grey areas:

Communers - once you figure it out they aren't that hard to overcome. The usual 'chase fast' menatility must be applied to cut them down once you beat them down. Path of anger berserkers will have their way with communers every single time.

Necromancers - you kill them or they kill you. Its fast, its ugly and its going to be over very, very, very quickly. You need to know the berserker class to win this one because there usually isn't enough rounds in the fight to tolerate mistakes. This goes for the necro as well - they don't defend well enough to screw up their castings while you hammer into them.

L-A

PS - shaman are easier to kill with than clerics. In fact, I would go so far as to say that shaman are the easier class to kill with in the game at lvl 50. The combination of mals that are greater than lvl 50, spells that take your -saves AND more mals to land on you after that is devastating. There are tricks that can be used - but I'd bet on a shaman to come out on top 98/100 anyday with that 2% being qraces.

[Segoy]

I believe Lay About wrote a huge suggestion on possible fixes to Berserkers.

I will say this and have in another thread. I think Melee's in General are disadvantaged in general at the moment, only slightly, but it makes a difference. Berserkers have become a less preferred option because honestly you can't surprise people with them, especially spell casters.

If you want me to flesh this out, I will. But hopefully in the next few days I will collaborate with a few people (hopefully including L.A.) and we will put down a new approach to Berserkers that may not make them overly stronger but definately add more "zazz" to them which ultimately is what is dangerous...

(Why are Blademasters so deadly, because they can do multiple different things to you, there is no one way to kill with them).

However, I have to disagree with L.A. about effectiveness vs Communers. For these reasons,

1. Haymaker has a 2 round lag, (most players do not spam these days).

2. Players do not stay in combat like they used to. (at the moment, surviving is more important that making a kill).

Number 2 point is the culture which is effecting FL like never before and I will hopefully put a Topic as to ways to avoid this shortly.

[L-A]

Segoy: Just rage and stand there until you can 1 round them unsanc'd wait for thier cast of ray/path and haymaker. You'll be able to take 30 - 50% of a communers hp in 1 round so you by the time you rage;dirt and let them cast maybe 4 paths, you can haymaker and its over.

Players will eventually learn that they need to flee at a LOT of hp (which I think is the point you are making about players not staying in combat). There are a couple of ways to combat this:

I know the 'standard' tactic for clerics these days is to flee at 50% of their health. I find this a real cop out on the PK side of things when players play it so safe they won't even push for a kill. These players don't deserve kills IMHO.

Bascially, you need to punish the communer player severely for the rounds they are in combat, then run far away and sleep yourself to full if you can't chase them down quickly. As I always say - if you aren't dealing CAPS damage to a communer in combat you need to upgrade your eq or you won't be able to defeat them.

Sitting at their temple is a good trick in this situation as they will sooner or later recall and you can probably get a good shot at the kill (don't look at me like that - if you actually were going to fight me instead of acting like a yellow bellied chump and fleeing at 50% of your hp I wouldn't be using tactics like this).

Find weapons/abilities that put mals on them and get these on them. They can cure them but very few communers cure in the heat of battle, they just heal and path you. Mals won't take their life but they will wear then down substantially fast esp if you're beating on them. Its usually enough to get them on the run.

L-A

[Segoy]

One word for you...

Slow...

or sorry...

Calm

I know, I'm being a smart-*** but honestly. I'm playing one right now and I have tried every trick in the book and it just isn't happening. Without a certain gladiator skill I would be absolute meat.

[goldbond]

idk about people not staying in combat being part of "FL culture" or anything as grandiose as that, but i do know this: not staying in combat and dancing around your melee opponent is a very sound strategy and people know this en masse now. i've pointed it out several times in the past.

the only way the average melee can stop that is catching his magic/hybrid opponent in a mistake or in bad luck and begin the lag-death, such as that berserker path that upon raging has a chance to dispel prot shield. bad luck if the magic user happened to have casted a spell right then and the berserker has the lag victory.

[Kyzarius]

the only way the average melee can stop that is catching his magic/hybrid opponent in a mistake or in bad luck and begin the lag-death' date=' such as that berserker path that upon raging has a chance to dispel prot shield. bad luck if the magic user happened to have casted a spell right then and the berserker has the lag victory.[/quote']

Or with chii-bolt

Honestly though, I agree with you about being mobile in combat. It is very important. You can usually judge your opponents skill, quite accuratly imho, by how they move in combat. I laugh everytime someone chastises me for fleeing before every tic at times to catch the hour.

[Celerity]

any decent communer will be cutting off the regen of the melee, so resting while they heal isn't really viable

somebody who flees at 50% doesn't deserve a kill? comeon ...if you can't finish the person who runs at 50% YOU don't deserve the kill .. (the bigger problem here is that wimpy isn't affected by lag always)

a zerk doesn't really have any chance against any decent communer, I'd go so far to say that communers are zerk banes (zerks have more banes than ANY other classes)

Same with invokers...all it takes is one dispel or even one heavy hitting spell and you are stuck in combat auto-raged and dead...that is FAR more likely than getting the haymaker-->lag lock combo...you will NOT outdamage an invoker (even a warrior won't)

you also never will take 30-50% of a communer's health away in a single round (300+ hp?)...not unless you are a 1.0 WM or have allocated all your eq to dam and are a giant/ogre...which in case you'll be dead anyways for those same reasons

paladin vs zerk is a boring fight..a zerk can't really outdamage the paladin (almost exactly the same offense, even with rage...and the paladin has much more defense), and the paladin can't lag the zerk...

Basically, zerks are weak warriors with the random status skill thrown in (headbutt, haymaker)...which makes them a bit of a wildcard

HOWEVER, I can't think of a situation where I'd rather have a zerk than a warrior...even bash is more consistent

Everybody talks about zerks like they have some super offense or something...but the damroll bonus of rage DOES NOT NEARLY reach the potential of fourth attack + fired weapons + weapon choices + warrior lore...zerks are at best a medium offense class..(DKs, vamps, invoker, bmg, warrior, blm, thief, ranger, and so on can all do more damage than a zerk)...AND with much higher survivability

[goldbond]

i would certainly suggest, and it's probably been suggested 5,000,000 times before, that berserkers should be able to rage WHEN THEY WANT TO. don't matter what %hp they are at whatsoever, at least it shouldn't matter. that change should be in effect immediately really.

celerity don't forget the auto-prot. shield dispel upon rage for some zerks. there's been evidence of that actually working before.

[Kyzarius]

i would certainly suggest, and it's probably been suggested 5,000,000 times before, that berserkers should be able to rage WHEN THEY WANT TO. don't matter what %hp they are at whatsoever, at least it shouldn't matter. that change should be in effect immediately really.

celerity don't forget the auto-prot. shield dispel upon rage for some zerks. there's been evidence of that actually working before.

Give zerks a raged escape skill. Call it rampage, you charge your oponnent with both weapons screaming, and just keep on going into the next room. Remaining raged. I bet you see a lot of berserkers able to turn things around.

Rampage

2 round lag penalty for failing...

You charge your opponnent with a blood curdling feral scream

So-and-so blocks your attack

Your rampage is stopped short!

...but

You charge your opponnent with a blood curdling feral scream

Your wild rampage devestates so-and-so as you bowl them over!

Your wild rampage MUTILATES so-and-so as you bowl them over!

You move eastward.

heck for giggles make them suffer blackjack for charging into a wall

gives you one round lag on success, but your still raged and in the next room (so of course if they come in on you its an aggro opener). Apply a 2 tic timer (like fb) to stop people from just rampaging all the time like some try to use charge. Just a random idea,

The inability to flee while raged is by far the most debilitating thing effecting berserkers, imho. Being good at PK in FL requires the ability to escape at any time, mobility is one of the key factors in any battle. Run out of moves, get lag locked, no flight, all of these are battle deciding events.

[Calron]

L-A: You say a zerk can take 30-50% of a communers hp in one round, and then you go on to say how it is stupid that communers flee at 50% hp.

Celerity: And, it is not altogether as difficult as you say to outdamage an invoker. An invoker has one defense, parry, and low hitroll. Whereas an equipped warrior has eight attacks, plus haste if he is smart, doing maims/multilates. If you are lucky, you might block 3/4 out of 8. An invoker probably has around 900 hp depending on race/class and how they choose to equip. Even in the best case scenario, thats ~1/4 total health per round, something an invoker cant do even on a vuln if the person knows what they're doing.

Finally, I still don't see people taking advantage of the skills a berserker can use. They can cleave weapons with consistent success if you do it right. Even if you are a warrior, you are probably carrying two nonmagics, two magics, and a staff/polearm. Destroy one of their dualing weapons and if it is a class with a resist/vuln it means a lot. Haymaker. This skill works fairly consistently as well (especially raged). So what if they can flee if they are a communer/caster. You still get at least a round. Against a melee, that becomes two rounds against someone who doesn't have unlimited sanc either.

You just have to prepare, and pick your battles. If you fight and are losing, flee and try again. Not everything happens the first go around. I see a lot of people using the proof of 'Here is my fight. I fought and I did basically everything right and I got owned.' Ok, assuming you are of equal skill and equipment, you need to repeat your results doing everything right ~5 times for it to have any significance. Part of the game is, as always, luck.

[Celerity]

Celerity: And, it is not altogether as difficult as you say to outdamage an invoker. An invoker has one defense, parry, and low hitroll. Whereas an equipped warrior has eight attacks, plus haste if he is smart, doing maims/multilates. If you are lucky, you might block 3/4 out of 8. An invoker probably has around 900 hp depending on race/class and how they choose to equip. Even in the best case scenario, thats ~1/4 total health per round, something an invoker cant do even on a vuln if the person knows what they're doing.

assuming that warriors get their full 8 attacks (which almost never happens)..four is more likely..and you won't hit all of those..if you are a giant/ogre, you can do that kind of damage, but dispel will kill you (and your haste) in half a round...if you aren't a giant, you won't be doing nearly enough damage...and if you are opposite align, parry gets a huge boost and your damage loses a lot

smart warriors can beat smart invokers, but they have to play a little attrition and maybe cut off regen or use arrows...in a simple straight up fight...invoker will come out on top...if they couldn't, they could never win...

invoker is the opposite of the attrition fighter, since they have such low hp and more importantly very slow hp regen

Finally, I still don't see people taking advantage of the skills a berserker can use. They can cleave weapons with consistent success if you do it right. Even if you are a warrior, you are probably carrying two nonmagics, two magics, and a staff/polearm. Destroy one of their dualing weapons and if it is a class with a resist/vuln it means a lot. Haymaker. This skill works fairly consistently as well (especially raged). So what if they can flee if they are a communer/caster. You still get at least a round. Against a melee, that becomes two rounds against someone who doesn't have unlimited sanc either

cleave is very very easily voided using easy to get sockets, especially if you use a staff (which you probably will anyways)...and you can't cleave off-hand weapons (so much for fighting blms)

haymaker is annoying, but then again, a warrior doesn't really need sanc to fight a zerk...all they need is dirt to kill your regen...not to mention, if you are haymakering, you aren't doing other important things like blinding and dealing unblockable damage (the most important damage..which the warrior WILL do to you through bashes/warrior lore/arrows, on top to their superior melee offense AND defense and having weapons you don't know)

this is all assuming haymaker actually drops protective shield/sanc each time..which is certainly doesn't..if you fail, you just left yourself open to a dispel and a path or worse, depending who you fight

[Aulian]

Celerity: And, it is not altogether as difficult as you say to outdamage an invoker. An invoker has one defense, parry, and low hitroll. Whereas an equipped warrior has eight attacks, plus haste if he is smart, doing maims/multilates. If you are lucky, you might block 3/4 out of 8. An invoker probably has around 900 hp depending on race/class and how they choose to equip. Even in the best case scenario, thats ~1/4 total health per round, something an invoker cant do even on a vuln if the person knows what they're doing.

You're kidding right? If a warrior is decked enough to be doing that sort of damage, then he is decked enough to be recieving two call lightnings a round.. The warrior will die. Its certainty.

[Calron]

You're kidding right? If a warrior is decked enough to be doing that sort of damage' date=' then he is decked enough to be recieving two call lightnings a round.. The warrior will die. Its certainty.[/quote']

Right, because its so difficult to get around call lightning. Secondly, when you say 'decked enough to be dealing that sort of damage'...I don't even consider that great damage. When my melees are equipped LACERATES through sanc if protection isn't applicable is normal. I'll reply to Celerity's post a bit later, don't have the time now.

[Aulian]

Simple, sacrifice your ac/armor and you wont be doing 8 attacks a round and oh sure "go indoors"... *Shrug* that warrior will never get the kill on that invoker. Simple as that.

Infact, it will probably drop your saves and THAT sounds like a really good idea with fighting an invoker

[Calron]

You will get the kill if you are smart, because when it is time for the invoker to run away A) you will be able to stand some call lightnings and The invoker will be running away, not casting.