What's wrong with Berserkers?

[Tantangel]

In theory, yeah, the Warrior/Zerk COULD beat an Invoker by outdamaging them. LA used a tactic way back when that hurt Invokers way too much within the first few rounds they couldn't outdamage him. However, that tactic has been changed slightly anyways so I doubt it would work anymore to Invokers. As for the Call lightning on a decked Warrior/Zerk, yeah, if you have enough hit/dam anymore to be causing massive damage, you probably have enough to have it do more damage than what you're currently doing. Call lightning is much like Fireball with a fully charged staff, though I don't believe you can get 3 off in 2 rounds, you can still get 1 off every round which is more than enough to hurt you.

Here's an idea for them:

Headbutt if you're a path of devastation the chance for succeeding is much higher since after all you're devastating and should be able to swing through that protective shield with your head a lot easier than say a path of anger Zerk.

Haymaker should increase the chance if you're a skull crusher because you've become accustomed to slowing down your rage and therefore notice more weaknesses within a mages protections. It also reduces the lag to one round instead of two because after all you knew exactly where to hit them to knock down those spells rather than throwing something out and hoping you knock some teeth out.

Weapon/Shield Cleave should land even occasionally on burnproof weapons as a path of Fury Zerk will have such a powerful grip on their weapon it becomes more than any ice storm or hellstream could ever do and becomes more like wind, possibly disarming instead of destroying it, and either into the Zerks inventory (assuming he has the room) as it was such a swift move and strong grip, the Zerk managed to do that.

Give them blind fighting if they don't have it because panic is annoying as hell and it doesn't make up for the loss of hitroll when blind. That or boost the hit/dam given by panic to that of like half your raged hit/dam so it makes people think about whether they should blind the Zerk or not.

Give them weaker version of Warrior Lore where they can choose to become better with whichever weapon they want (expertise) but they'll also have to go that lore at 50 with whichever weapon they chose to choose expertise in.

[Raargant]

There's more to damage than damroll, Celerity, especially when it comes to berserkers.

A properly suited berserker will be doing mutilates to massacres through sanc to any invoker (lowered damage for exceptions such as of Sigil Invoker), dependant on race and path. With proper weapon choice (flails and whips were always my personal favorite), the invoker will be lucky to block so much as one attack per round.

Properly suited, sanc or no sanc, invokers will not last more than 3-5 rounds against a berserker, depending on race, rage path, cabal choice, and how much the invoker has pumped into hp/ac.

[Nekky]

Calron has said:

Finally, I still don't see people taking advantage of the skills a berserker can use. They can cleave weapons with consistent success if you do it right. Even if you are a warrior, you are probably carrying two nonmagics, two magics, and a staff/polearm. Destroy one of their dualing weapons and if it is a class with a resist/vuln it means a lot. Haymaker. This skill works fairly consistently as well (especially raged). So what if they can flee if they are a communer/caster. You still get at least a round. Against a melee, that becomes two rounds against someone who doesn't have unlimited sanc either.

In the first instance, berzerkers can't cleave offhands. In the second instance, cleave does not work nearly as often as you're making it sound. In the third instance, any berzerker who sits in battle constantly trying to cleave a weapon is forced to neglect other essential skills like dirt, headbutt or haymaker. In the fourth instance, burnproof weapons are easy to get and, unlike cursed weapons, you don't get a special message when you try to cleave one. You just get the generic 'fail' message, so you can't tell for yourself if you're just failing or if the weapon cannot be cleaved at all. With all respect, your advice sounds like someone who has examined berzerkers on paper, but hasn't really played too many in practice. I could be wrong though.

Regarding haymaker. It is often viewed as this devastating skill for berzerkers, but the fact is everyone is looking for it and as soon as it lands they bolt and get themselves back into fighting form while you're sitting there lagged. Anyone caught unawares by a haymaker is foolish, and the death will be not because of the skill of the berzerker, but rather the mistakes of the other party. Sure that's how a lot of PKs happen, but a class shouldn't have to rely on someone else screwing up to win. Also, there is only one rage path that lets you punch through a shield. If you don't select path of anger, your haymakers can be blocked by anyone wearing a shield EVEN IF THAT CLASS DOESN'T HAVE THE SHIELD BLOCK SKILL. I'm sure people will say "So shield cleave them first, then haymaker". But seriously, low level socketable shields and burnproof sockets are very easy to get. In addition, if you sit there failing shield cleave and then finally get it off, then haymaker (assuming they don't flee as soon as the shield dies and they don't have spares) - you've just taken up round after round of combat, and surely any spells you were trying to avoid by haymakering have already been cast on your hapless arse?

Regarding headbutt, this is once again a skill that people like to see as an ability that makes berzerkers mage/communer banes. Though it is useful in certain very particular situations, it is far from the weapon of ultra-death it is made out to be. People say "Just headbutt the mage and chase them down to kill!". Having played a successful shaman and having fought clerics and shamans many times I can say with fair certainty that in most of the common areas of FL there is room to hurtle around in circles waiting for the 0 tick effect of headbutt to wear off. Headbutt a shaman/cleric/paladin and watch how fast they run to Elium, the Ford, Emerald Forest, any city or a number of other easy to access areas and run around in circles until it wears off (which isn't long). Those areas are big and square enough that the chasing zerk will never catch you, and even if they do, just flee and keep running. You'll be casting again before you know it.

Regarding berzerker melee. I believe that the idea that berzerkers are unstoppable melee machines came into existence when Kentry and other 1.0 Warmasters were dominating players who were significantly less savvy about PK than the average player is now, and it has carried on to the present day. Sure, a zerk who catches someone unsanced or who catches a mage with their prot shield down is going to do some damage, but really, how often is that going to happen nowdays - especially in cabal wars? Looking at the overall level of PK that is NOW prevalent in the player base, I would say that berzerker's reputation for melee power is no longer as true as it might have been back in 1.0 where the rumours started. Sure, rage gives you a big boost to your hit/dam. But as Celerity already mentioned even that doesn't edge out warriors with fourth attack, arrows, and weapon lores. Nor, in my opinion, does it edge out rangers with pets and arrows. Also, it is often not feasible to rage against other power melee classes like DKs and rangers. All it takes is for them to flee and you're left pounding on their charmies while they waste you without getting hit much themselves.

A berzerker is never going to outdefend a ranger, warrior, paladin, blademaster or monk. And it's been my recent experience that you struggle to overpower them too, which is meant to be the berzerker's greatest strength.

[Nekky]

With that I have a couple of minor suggestions, feel free to disagree if you want to.

Headbutt: Maybe make it confuse for the same length of time as it stops you casting, similar to thunder clap. That would at least mean it is less easy to just spring around waiting for the tick to fall. Just for 0-1 tick would be fine.

Weapon/Shield Cleave: Maybe make it so if you try to cleave a burnproof shield or weapon, you get a special message like the one you get when you try to disarm a cursed weapon or shield. That would at least let the berzerker know that they were wasting their time, and they wouldn't just assume they failed the skill.

Haymaker: If a class doesn't have the shield block skill, I think that they should not be able to deflect a haymaker with a shield. In my view it would take considerable skill to maneuvre a heavy shield to deflect a precision blow, not just any schmoe could do it.

Those are all the ideas I have right now.

[Ex-D&Der]

...cleave does not work nearly as often as you're making it sound .... burnproof weapons ... unlike cursed weapons' date=' you don't get a special message when you try to cleave one. You just get the generic 'fail' message, so you can't tell for yourself if you're just failing or if the weapon cannot be cleaved at all.[/quote']

Perhaps both of these should be changed. Make cleave nearly as reliable as disarm, and give a message if the weapon or shield is burnproof. Also perhaps make burnproof sockets rare.

Regarding berzerker melee. I believe that the idea that berzerkers are unstoppable melee machines came into existence when Kentry and other 1.0 Warmasters were dominating players who were significantly less savvy about PK than the average player is now, and it has carried on to the present day.

I was thinking the same thing with regards to 1.0 Warmaster. Perhaps berzerkers were designed with that cabal in mind. Maybe Warmasters need a buff, as has been suggested elsewhere. Although there are other cabal choices for a zerker, like Tribunal say.

Another difference from 1.0 was the elimination of most saves versus spell. It used to be much easier to have high saves and a high hitroll.

[Mindflayer]

My current berserker is having no problem handing out beatings.

[Tantangel]

Okay, instead of weapon lores like Warriors, how about more skill lores that would possibly up the PK abilities of Zerks. I know you'll hate them too.

Weapon Cleave: With greater prowess, Berserkers who have chosen the path of Fury have come up with a way to destroy even the strongest of weapons which normally wouldn't be able to be cleaved by normal means.

Shield Cleave: Much like Weapon Cleave but for Shields.

Haymaker: With a greater precision, those of the path of Anger have developed the ability to dislocate the jaws of their victims as well as causing them to lose possible defensive spells.

Headbutt: With a wild and fury blow to the head dealt by those of the path of Devastaion, it confuses many and causes them to not be able to concentrate upon any spells cast or prayers.

*Added to branch off other possible routes of Zerks.

Resist: Through years of practice, those who belong to the path of Anger have developed a way to resist the affects of panic by calming themselves down so that they can sleep while in a state of distress and as such have developed a way to heal at a greater rate because of this.

Keen Sense: Through years of hacking and slashing at all those who fight them, those who follow the path of Devastation have learned to hone their senses to be able to fight blind with little to no downside but with everything to gain. (Basically like blind fighting but will target the main person automatically if it's a class with pets. You'd still swing, just every time the person flees and returns, you'd go back to beating on them as if they hadn't fled at all.)

Whirlwind: With gathering speed those of the path of Fury have developed a way to not just destroy a weapon with a cleave, but have been known to be able to pick up enough speed to create a whirlwind that has been known to disarm their opponents instead.

Now I know how much you people will totally go against this, but I was bored and didn't want to play since I'm lagging like hell at the moment which is probably due to my net being a hunk of crap. But hopefully someone likes at least one of my ideas.

[Tantangel]

My current berserker is having no problem handing out beatings.

Pre-50 PK with anything don't count. Aside from that you can own the class that a 50 Zerk will have a hard time fighting against all while hopefully that person doesn't make it to 50 with you just to turn around and own you back. IE: Ogre Ranger fighting a BMG pre-50 will most likely own them up until about lvl 40, at which time the tables begin to turn and rape the Ogre Ranger.

[Ex-D&Der]

Could also make headbutt last a full hour, or give it a chance to lag a little through protective shield, like charge. Maybe make haymaker more likely to succeed.

[Mindflayer]

Pre-50 PK with anything don't count.

He's 50 and deadly.

[Evangelion]

About as deadly as a fluffy pink bunny rabbit.

[Tantangel]

He's 50 and deadly.

I can think of only one lvl 50 Zerk and he isn't deadly. If you're talking about a Mino zerk, well, yeah, there's been one of those in the past who went Watcher that didn't do too bad, but that's because Mino Zerks are probably one of the strongest Zerks being that because they can charge without penalty helps them quite a bit.

[Calron]

First, the argument a lot of you are making about wasting time on burnproofed weapons is not a valid argument. That is a gap in a player's knowledge of equipment, not of the berserker class. Second, think about the weapons people use and how many are burnproof. You say there are many weapons burnproof out there to nullify weapon cleave. Great, in theory, but have an IMM go look at all the weapons in the inventory of every melee that does well and count how many are burnproof -- It will be a very low percentage. There are things out there for everything, but that isn't an argument against a class. Finally, think about how many people waste the socket on their weapon burnproofing.

There is absolutely no reason that a berserker should not destroy any cleric, IMHO. Even completely disregarding class skills, a properly equipped berserker simply deals out too much damage to leave the cleric time for anything but healing. What does it matter if they get lucky and manage to land minister? They can't even stay in combat with you four rounds, assuming the save is failed which is rare now in any case.

The same goes for Invokers. Again, I'm not meaning to sound impatient, but saying that berserkers suck against Invokers because of call lightning is not a valid argument. There are plenty of ways to get around call lightning. As Raargant said, mutilates at least and you will land almost all of your attacks. They can stay in combat with you four rounds unraged if you are playing it safe. Now pretend you are raged, even if you use no class skills, they will be lucky not to be dead in five rounds. What can an invoker possibly do to burn through all of a berserkers regular health, plus the extra amount added from rage. Hellstream does tops about 225, though rarely this much, through sanctuary on a failed save non-vuln. Dispel/Hellstream is not helpful, even assuming you land it first try, people just say that because of a pre-occupation with big letters. You make the same damage from an unsanced hellstream as two sanced hellstreams.

This isn't just theory I'm arguing based on. I've played several berserkers to fifty, one of them in Knight a long time ago. I already have three caballed chars at the moment so I really can't handle another task, therefore my posts will have to convince by themselves for now.

[Nekky]

I never said berzerkers can't beat communers or invokers. My post was just to disagree with a few of the popular assumptions people have about berzerker skills and how effective they are.

[Mindflayer]

He's no minotaur, that's too over done. I need something with style man!

[Tantangel]

So Fire Zerk with 100/100 hit/dam and dual wielding fire weapons.

[Mindflayer]

Nope, better than that. (Not that that combo doesn't kick butt-it sure looks good on paper)

[Tantangel]

I'm guessing you mean Ogre. I suppose they'd be alright, but with healing reduced you wont get the regen they used to get which probably wont make them as good as the Fire Giant. I still say Fire beats Ogre even with their regen, just depends on how you go about it.

[Mindflayer]

I've done ogre berserker (restrung as a Troll) with a previous character. The aforementioned character, combined with his cabal choice, was the BANE of all ogre rangers. Blademasters went down too, and even the occasional ogre warrior. This CURRENT racial choice was an experiment-one that's shaping out better than I had planned. Hell, I almost one-rounded Thicil the other day. And people say berserkers need balancing.. here's a tip, stop playing them like warriors!

[Tantangel]

Dwarf or Duergar then. Otherwise it'd only be one of three other races.

[Mindflayer]

I've done both duergar and dwarf berserkers in Warmaster, as Rothgal and Bazin respectively. They were fun, but I needed something new.

[archgold]

werebeast? stone giant?

[TheNewGuy]

HUMAN!

Nah, my guess is stone.

[Guest emp_newb]

Ask Thicil hehe

[EyeSeeU]

If you are smart and you pay attention to Flayers other post in other sections you could probably make an educated guess at his race for his zerk.