Aldredon

[Mister E]

/---------------\/----------------------------------------------\

| Aldredon || Official of TRIBUNAL |

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| Str: 18(18) || Level: 50 Sex: M Age : 1029(150h) |

| Int: 25(25) || Class: ninja Ethos: lawful |

| Wis: 20(20) || Race : Avari(elf) Align: good |

| Dex: 23(23) || Hp : 779/729 Exp : 68113/612687 |

| Con: 14(14) || Mana : 903/888 |

\ Lck: [|||---] \/ Move : 414/414 +Hit: 3 +Dam: 4 /

/---------------/\------------------/\--------------------------\

| ARMOR || SAVES || Deity : Creator |

| Slash : 10 || Spell : 0 || Faith : Agnostic |

| Pierce: 10 || Afflictive : 0 || Weight: 185/325 |

| Blunt : 10 || Maledictive: 0 || Items : 23/40 |

| Magic : 10 || Mental : 0 || Prac : 18 Train: 0 |

| || || Gold : 0 CP: 2.3k |

\---------------\/------------------\/--------------------------/

/ Condition: You have a few cuts and bruises. \

| You are ready for a cabal promotion. |

\---------------------------------------------------------------/

cure light 97 detect invis 94 invisibility 81

dagger 100 spear 100 sword 100

dirt kicking 100 disarm 78 dodge 100

enhanced damage 100 envenom 75 hand to hand 100

kick 100 parry 100 trip 77

second attack 100 third attack 98 fast healing 96

haggle 89 hide 100 lore 1

meditation 100 pick lock 84 sneak 100

scrolls 86 staves 100 recall 100

ikuzachi 78 ****** 100 ***** 100

********* 2 ************ 77 dual wield 100

detect hidden 91 assassinate 100 strangle 100

acupuncture 100 grapple 95 endure 100

vanish 90 chii 96 blindness dust 100

poison smoke 100 caltraps 97 nerve 89

staff 100 throw 100 edge craft 100

double kick 86 decoy 100 push 100

study 100 fired weapons 100 pugil 100

defuse 78 doublesheath 100

You have 18 practice sessions left.

Did 36 quests.

Props to anyone who can truly RP a good vs good battle.

Very hard for me to justify, being a good align trib is not easy!

I wanted to go council and evetually among other plans try and get the good align outlaws forgiven in an attepmt to find a way to work together. Tough stuff, anyway... When you get fulled by another good and they sac all your cabal items, its frustrating to say the least. Made me feel like my efforts would not be worthwhile since it looks like it just comes down to getting eq and not at working out good vs good rp. Makes me not ever want to play goods with current system, seeing as how you lose the perk of "known allies" I think maybe tribunal should look into being neut/evil with the problems that can arise between good chaotic and good lawful.

It was fun, but between the loss and the disapointment I just couldnt really continue. Time for something new.

[J.Twendrist]

That sucks..... Good luck on your next.

[Deykari]

I appreciate your frustration - but look at things from the point of view of the other good, as I don't want you to think I was after a cheap shot.

- Pamiyn is an Avatar. His duty is to above everything else, eradicate evil, and do what he must reasonably do to carry out his duties. Check 'help purity' out and imagine a religious extremist of Purity. Pamiyn is that extremist.

- You are a good-aligned Tribune. Your duties are to bring Outlaws and Wanteds like myself to justice. In my case, justice means execution.

I, as Pamiyn, do not want to see other lightwalkers die. But I will attempt to hinder their efforts at hindering my duties (in this case, the hinderance being attempting to end my life through execution). I am perfectly in my rights as a good, to bring goods who attack me to mercy and have a good old preach. I attempt to do it to all goods who attack me. The only problem here, was your choice of battlefield, firstly attacking me in the forsaken lands. Once whatever it was in the forsaken lands killed you, my attempts at hindering you came into play - I took from your corpse a couple of weapons and what I needed (I wasn't well-dressed). Don't forget that when we fight, if you win I am full looted automatically and slain. The most I can do to you is bring you to 1hp, and then attempt to defend your almost dead body from anybody who is looking to finish you off. In a perfect world (ie. MUD code permitting), any goods who attacked me I would bring to mercy and then take their EQ whilst they in mercy. Why?

"You. I love you as a brother, but you do not understand my cause. You constantly attempt to hinder my efforts at doing what I must do in the name of a cause you are ignorant to, and for that purpose I will rid you of what you use to hinder me. Go forth and live a healthy life my brother, but leave me be."

That's exactly how I see good VS good working. Two good-aligns with highly differeing views. Neither wants to see each other dead, but both know their duties come before friendship and as such they will attempt to hinder each other if one feels hindered by another.

I'm going to be brutally honest here, and please don't take offence to this because I have a lot of respect for you and don't mean it in that way at all - but it seems to me as though you were annoyed at losing your EQ, as most definitely good VS good RP can exist and there was huge potential for some good VS good RP with us.

From what I heard, you were a solid character with some solid RP behind you. Sorry to see you end it now. I can't imagine how a ninja in Tribunal would work and I've got to give you props for trying such an unusual path. I just felt as though perhaps you maybe misread Pamiyn's actions for some 'cheap' play.

EDIT: And for the record, what Pamiyn has done is what Pamiyn would do. If these actions are deemed 'unsuitable' then that is an IG matter that will be dealt with and consequences faced. And just for the record... I wasn't lying when I said I didn't full loot and sac you. I took only what was needed for me.

Dey

[Tantangel]

Aldredon was pretty good, actually kind of liked him. That's kind of messed up though that another Good would full loot you though after they've killed you whether accidental or not. I'd actually post it in Prayer forum, as to be honest I think the Good should be Outcast and turned to Neutral/Evil for acting the way they did like that.

Good vs. Good PK while they're a criminal though is something that they choose to be. Yeah, follow the alignment of Good and don't PK other Goods, but as I see it, a Good in Tribunal is basically doing their duty to uphold the laws and keep a balance between those who follow the laws and those who don't. After all the Good in Tribunal is doing his/her job to remove any Criminals from the street from terrorizing the innocent citizens. If it comes to Good Tribunal vs. Good Criminal, well the Good had a choice in the matter of becoming a Criminal or not and as soon as he stepped into that zone, he should be hunted down until captured. Besides, not every capture will end up in their death anyways, it'd end up with them behind bars for a certain amount of time.

Nicely done though, I was hoping to see more of you as from what I had seen was good. Hopefully you'll have more fun on the next.

[EDIT] Assuming that you did fight in the Forsaken Lands and a MOB got the kill and not the Good, that was more or less your choice to fight there since you could've fought elsewhere to avoid an area full of aggro MOBs. If it was a few weapons taken from your corpse (weapons), it was probably to just hinder you from assaulting him again, I've never seen Pamiyn kill another Goodie, only bring mercy upon them so they no longer assaulted him.

[Mister E]

Thats pretty much how I saw it Tantangel and the only good I ever captured was by accident cuz a guard got them. I only ran into the forsaken lands (stupid I know) because Byrsypherus was there and both Pamiyn and another outlaw were in there with him. I saw what looked like a 2 on 1 and had to jump in.

I understand where you are coming form Dey, and yes if you had been captured you would have been "fulled" and executed. The difference is I did not make you an outlaw and I would have tried to find a solution we could both live with in time.

And btw, I would have immediately returned your bag after your death if you had been captured, because I did support your cause. At the same time I could simply not do anything else at that moment but try and apprehend you.

I still think it was a low blow to take as much as you did, hell even one item in my opinion for the circumstances was wrong, plus the saccing of MANY cps worth of stuff, I found that seriously un needed. Only reason I didnt pay for **** ********* was because it was only good criminals on. Wish I had in retrospect.

You even said it in your own post, if a good comes after you, as an avatar you will bring them to their knees (mercy) and preach to them while defending them from anything evil that might try and take thier life.

Well in my case you left me to die to a torment then conveniently grabbed all my stuff. I can easily say that in your shoes that is not what I would have done. Hence why I think it was more an ooc loot than anything.

[Guest emp_newb]

look man, your pissed right now, and ripping on Deykari. Anyone saying that he breached his rp is obviously not thinking properly. Sorry man but I have witnessed/recieved Pamiyn's beatings and subsequent preachings. Pamiyn is a brutally ruthless avatar. He got avatar for his RP and PK. I SERIOUSLY doubt that Pamiyn took most of your gear, hell he killed Vasraema (which I was so pissed you got full charge lag right then) and did not full loot. So I really do not see that happening man. Calm down, inhale, exhale, and have fun.

[H&R]

I'm really sad to see you go. And I am really sad to see that a full loot affected you this much.

PS. Read the end of dey's post. DS

[Mister E]

I read the end of it. And i'm not ripping at Dey, if anything i'm ripping on his paladin, not my fault we can tell everyone who we play. You can believe him or not, but there is no way he just grabbed a weapon or two. I had virtually none of my decent rares left, maybe one, and I dont see who else would have sacced my items, I went right back to the scene and only a low lvl faerie was there and khranin who came to res me.

[kahlos]

Very sad to see Aldredon go... Seemed to be a great ninja! Not many of those around! But sorry to say, I'm with Deykari on this one.

Pamiyn is a perfectly played avatar IMO. Get in his way, whether you are good, neut, or evil, and you will pay the consequences without him breaching RP. Sacrificing another good's equipment is not a breach of alignment RP IMO. You wanted him captured and dead, he will do everything to prevent that. (And killing you will not be an option- getting you killed however, can be another thing)

I'm glad Pamiyn is doing well. It is most annoying to have these goods or neutrals attacking an Avatar when they know full well that Avatars will leave a good or a neutral alone.

Roll another Trib mate, make it a neutral or an undead ninja this time.

[H&R]

I read the end of it. And i'm not ripping at Dey' date=' if anything i'm ripping on his paladin, not my fault we can tell everyone who we play. You can believe him or not, but there is no way he just grabbed a weapon or two. I had virtually none of my decent rares left, maybe one, and I dont see who else would have sacced my items, I went right back to the scene and only a low lvl faerie was there and khranin who came to res me.[/quote']

That's when you get back up and re-equip.

[Deykari]

Thats pretty much how I saw it Tantangel and the only good I ever captured was by accident cuz a guard got them. I only ran into the forsaken lands (stupid I know) because Byrsypherus was there and both Pamiyn and another outlaw were in there with him. I saw what looked like a 2 on 1 and had to jump in.

I understand where you are coming form Dey, and yes if you had been captured you would have been "fulled" and executed. The difference is I did not make you an outlaw and I would have tried to find a solution we could both live with in time.

And btw, I would have immediately returned your bag after your death if you had been captured, because I did support your cause. At the same time I could simply not do anything else at that moment but try and apprehend you.

I still think it was a low blow to take as much as you did, hell even one item in my opinion for the circumstances was wrong, plus the saccing of MANY cps worth of stuff, I found that seriously un needed. Only reason I didnt pay for **** ********* was because it was only good criminals on. Wish I had in retrospect.

You even said it in your own post, if a good comes after you, as an avatar you will bring them to their knees (mercy) and preach to them while defending them from anything evil that might try and take thier life.

Well in my case you left me to die to a torment then conveniently grabbed all my stuff. I can easily say that in your shoes that is not what I would have done. Hence why I think it was more an ooc loot than anything.

Ah, I was just watching the whole Byspherus thing. Wasn't attacking.

For your items, I took 5 rares that I needed plus your weapons. Nothing was taken that wasn't needed, nothing was taken and sacced. It's very feasible that somebody could have noticed you dying if anybody was nearby, mopped up your corpse and then fled. Look at it this way - if I had been a neutral or an evil, it would have been a perfectly normal kill. But because I'm good, I didn't want to kill you - your choice of battlefield did that. Your death was just as if I had killed you, as I brought you to mercy at 1hp - except there was a killing blow delivered that wasn't anticipated.

As for good VS good looting, good align RP can be a lot broader than the typical goodie-goodie RP. Pamiyn is brutally arrogant and set in his ways - he believes that what he believes he fights for is right and everyone else is ignorant. He believes that himself (and other Avatars) are above every other mortal. He is an absolute Purity extremist. He will do everything in his power to destroy evil - but he won't kill other lightwalkers. So if a lightwalker attempts to assault him, he will, if possible, attempt to strip said lightwalker of their ability to kill him by ridding them of their weapons and armors from his IC perspective. As far as that as a player goes, that just means that if I need anything from an aggro lightwalkers corpse, I'll take it just as I would another. If I don't, it won't be taken.

You said you would have given me a bag should I have been executed, and then attempted to come to a peaceful conclusion - that's by the by. From Pamiyn's point of view, he is the Avatar of Irumeru with duties to carry out and you are attempting to put a halt to the furthering of the cause of Purity by bringing him to justice and ultimately ending his life. Pamiyn can't afford to let that happen. Pamiyn isn't going to think "Hmm, it'll be alright if I'm captured because I'll keep my armour and then we can come to a peaceful conclusion." because he believes himself to be above mortal law and doesn't actually care for a peaceful solution because in his mind, no peaceful solution can exist between himself and the Empire because laws hinder him.

I've rambled on a bit now, so I'll pipe down. When all's said and done, I'm sorry for causing you frustration, especially enough to delete - it was a real downer for me reading that, because I hope to god that as a player I'm not ****ing people off enough to warrant them deleting that which they've put many hours of effort into.

Good luck with your next character.

Dey

[Iyorvin]

Have to bite. I disagree.

Sorry, Dey. I love your char, but that just doesn't float my boat. Not that I believe bringing up the past will help influence my point, but I've had two avatars. One with Sirant and one with Iru. During my stint with Sirant, I was held on a much stricter par then a normal goodie. As any avatar should. This means, any killing of ANY good would be an auto outcast flag, removal of avatar, and probably *** chewed by his divine tongue lashing that no one could stand up to. Iru was very much the same way.

Now if we look at the basics of this. Another GOODIE just looted a GOODIE. Put aside cabal politics, ethos bullcrap, and look at the basic. One goodie looted another goodie. Seen this done a million times in the past. Seen a million outcast flags thrown for it too. Probably a vast majority of the pbase has seen it as well.

It has also been a long common understanding of the difficulities between good aligned trib and good outlaws. So much flames/rants/deletions/I'm leaving posts that you couldn't count them. The general consensus, and as I was told by many an IMM, its the price you pay for going outlaw with a goodie. As BOTH of my avatars were also outlaw, it was VERY hard for me, and I sympathize with anyone who attempts to do it. Both from the Trib standpoint and the outlaw.

But when it comes down to it. The avatar of purity in Aabahran caused the death and looted an elven Tribunal. You think I'm being harsh, too old school?

Well tough. The price you pay for possibly the best BONUS skills/spells/other things in the game. It requires the STRICTEST of will power.

[Deykari]

EDIT: And for the record' date=' what Pamiyn has done is what Pamiyn would do. If these actions are deemed 'unsuitable' then that is an IG matter that will be dealt with and consequences faced. [/quote']

Which is what I was getting at here. The way I'm playing Pamiyn is not looking at what I believe an Avatar should be and working to fit that. I'm playing out a character's personality, and I'm aware that if I've done anything that's against the way an Avatar should be played there will be conseqeunces.

As for the attacking other goods/looting other goods thing, I disagree that looting other goods is a bad thing. It is nothing but a good align taking the possessions from another good align - he doesn't want to kill the good, but he has his own life to think about, and thus rids his aggressor of his items in the interest of maintaining his own life. If that's not how an Avatar should act, then that's fine - there will be IG consequences. But that's how I feel my character would act, and I feel that to be a perfectly fine POV on looting other goods.

I also feel it completely fine that I should be allowed to defend myself against other goods if they attack me. If I'm minding my own business in the forsaken lands and a good comes and attacks me, and I bring them to mercy and then they're slain after that by an evil creature as a result of me being physically incapable of doing anything to rescue him, then why am I at fault? I can see why from the POV of what one may think an Avatar should be, but my view on that slightly differs from yours - again, my perspective on what an Avatar should be might be skewed and if I've done anything that the Imms deem unsuitable Avatar behaviour I'll pay the price. Whilst I don't want to kill goods, if a good is trying to end my life I have the choice between bringing him to mercy and fleeing, or dieing, I think it's my right to defend myself.

End of the day, everybody always says that if you're going to be an Avatar/Outlaw, you're making a conscious choice and you have to live with the consequences. I personally disagree with the way that good aligned Tribs cant throw themselves at outlawed goods without single consequence other than being brought to mercy. IMO, Avatars should have a bond with lightwalkers but if lightwalkers are attempting to hinder their duties (which lie primarily within PURITY and not COMPASSION) then they must do something (looting) to ensure they can go about their duties unhindered.

And, for the final time (and I've said this a lot), this is my view on Avatars. If that's deemed unsuitable, so be it.

Dey

[Iyorvin]

I've heard that argument as well. Good Tribs will ALWAYS face this circumstance of having to face goodie outlaws. IT IS the GOODIE OUTLAWS CHOICE of going outlaw while there are goodie tribs around. YOU KNOW that TRIB will be able to relentlessly hunt you down while you can do nothing in return, save run away, or mercy.

Because you are an outlawed goodie(avatar has NOTHING to do with this at all), being persued by a goodie, does NOT give you the right to loot another goodie. That's my view, and the way I've been taught. But I've been wrong before. Again, simply comes down to one goodie looting another goodie. If it isn't a STRICT NO NO, then the Imms will be forced to deem EVERY situation good/bad. And who, as the players, will take the falls for the bad?

For instance. Pamiyn the avatar is battling six evils. Teleports, gets hit by a voodoo harm, and dies in front of a goodie. The goodie goes, wow, freebie, and jacks all their ****. Goodie has legit RP reasons to do it. Political conflicts between the one god and Pamiyn's avatar zeal.

Now before you say that if the person has legit RP reasons behind the loot you would not be angry, think of where this is going. Every situation would then have to be judged differently. With no ruling on it, the pbase can then begin pulling the 'well I didn't know' trump card.

At any rate, props to you both. Pamiyn, you play like Wyslign in the fact that you do what your CHARACTER would do, and let the IMMS sort out your future. To Ald, I am very sad to see you go. You had some wonderful RP that will really be missed at 50.

[kahlos]

At any rate, props to you both. Pamiyn, you play like Wyslign in the fact that you do what your CHARACTER would do, and let the IMMS sort out your future.

[TheNewGuy]

I'm with Dey. He didn't kill a goodie, the forsaken lands did. As for looting, he is in no way HURTING a goodie, just preventing him from attacking him again. How is that wrong?

[Iyorvin]

All about situations and perspective.

[EyeSeeU]

Well here is one, Returning any items taken from any criminals is a no no no no no! You don't do it, wether they are good, neutral, or evil. I am so angry that I heard it would have been done. So that leaves me to question was it done? If a good align is being persued by another good align then in "GOOD VS GOOD" rp that good aligned TRIBUNAL is just as wrong as you say the avatar is. Good aligns are not even supposed to think the wrong way about their good aligned brethern. So to have to chase one to their capture or execution knowingly breaks good align rp. If you care to argue with that fine but know right now you are wrong. When the first thought crosses the good aligns mind that wow Im going to be hurting this other good in some way, thats when it is broken. Yet Tribunals are allowed to be good which in all honesty doesn't make sense to me in our mud environment.

[Calron]

Align has always come before cabals, so I don't see the Good vs. Good justification either. However, as far as I can tell this is one of those things that the IMMs say it will be a certain way, and nothing we say is going to change it.

IMO, looting from a good is not much better than killing him. I don't mean you specifically when I say this Dey, just since this is the current example. But for all intents and purposes Pamiyn caused Aldredon's death. Obviously Pamiyn would have known that things kill people in the Forsaken Lands. He chose to fight him there and bring him to his knees. You also could have healed him once he was stunned depending on the delay before the attack. Then, he could have fled, or you could have rescued him. So, for all intents and purposes, Pamiyn killed Aldredon. Looting a good in a situation where you killed him (or even inadvertently caused his death) seems like a breach of RP in that Avatars are the epitome of Light. If you are able to beat him already, then he doesn't exactly need to be deprived of some equip for your safety.

Again, I'm not talking directly to Dey/Pamiyn here, I'm just giving my opinion using this situation as a vehicle.

[EyeSeeU]

So if Pamiyn killed Aldredon then, every good Tribunal kills whomever they capture that gets executed correct? Since they know what crimes the criminal has commited and the penalty for the crimes. See ever since I stopped playing Chrinchton I realized that I can no longer play any good aligned lawfull Tribunal/Justice or what have you. For that simple reason. While playing chrinchton I ignored as a character the wrongs of what I was doing when I myself brought other good aligns to justice. This however is just me as a player and yes the Immortals have the final say.

[Chromatic]

...

[Iyorvin]

Alright. So this thread is official derailed. And, since as stated above, I am 'already wrong', I will have no further argument(because that flawless logic and witty argument has obviously backed me into a corner). I will only say that for the goodie trib, it isn't HE/SHE who is killing you. They are being brought in to be judged based upon their crimes. If execution is the outcome, then that is a burden the goodie trib must bear. However, this thread is just turning into a flame nightmare, and we are not mature enough to keep this civil, so peace.

[Mister E]

Wow chromatic...I could have handled the situation better yes. But in no way am I trying to make dey look bad. But clearly from the differences of opinion there is something here that might need to be looked at. So if you are going to post at least bring something to the discussion. The worst part for me was actually going after him at all. Like I said, I had not actually captured a single goodie (granted I only had 20 captures) but my chars rp made it very hard to do so. I saw Pamiyn run by a few times and didnt attack. Part of the problem is you have these left over outlaws from previous tribs who may have been evil, or even a vampire etc...

As I said the only reason I jumped into a stupid place to fight was because I scanned north and saw two outlaws in a room with Byrsypherus. My immediate gut reaction was go and help him. Now yes it got me killed in a foolish way, and I obviously didnt have to delete. I am not blaming dey or anyone else for the choice I made. All I am saying is I think the good vs good rp is very very tricky, and at that moment I was really hurt by pamiyns actions. In retrospect if I had captured him and given his bag back and I got in trouble I would have tried to justify my actions too, and would have taken it as it came IG.

So be it. lets just not get into flaming. just cuz we know who plays who it doesnt mean we cant comment on character actions without flaming the player.

[EyeSeeU]

For the record I was not trying to flame anyone just sharing my thoughts about my own experiences with the situation at hand.

Aldredon I am upset that you did delete. I thought you were doing a fantastic job, especially for a Tribunal Ninja. I understand certain circumstances cause us to do things in a very rash manor but then again thats life. Well done and good luck with your next character.

[Wathok]

The key to "success" of any good-aligned character is not necessarily figuring out and doing exactly what the goodie gods wants you to. Success (or part of it, anyways) comes with accepting the consequences that accompany your characters' actions.

For instance, if your paladin killed a faerie, that doesn't immediately indicate you are a bad player. It's how you accept the consequence that matters.