Cabal Warfare: Destroyer of Roleplay

[The Wayward Knight]

Discuss.

[The Wayward Knight]

Please.

[Icor]

What's your argument? :confused:

[Aulian]

Cabal warfare is in effect Roleplay..

You are making yourself an agent of an organisation with know affiliations/ideals. Hence enhancing your character.

It creates as many opportunities for RP as it destroys.

[Grumpy]

I think more specifically the element he is trying to get at is capture the flag. *or I might be wrong*. But I sometimes think it gets a little old. I mean I've have been capturing the flag for god knows how long now. Maybe we need a change of mini game or a refreshing new angle or something.

[The Wayward Knight]

Make your own arguments, I will post mine when I think I have enough time to word it well enough.

[The Wayward Knight]

All aspects of it, not just the 'capture the flag' thing.

[TheNewGuy]

I my self HATE the ctf thing.

[Aulian]

I my self HATE the ctf thing.

Alright - but what are your suggested alternatives?

[Icor]

Cabals in vendetta should try to go for more dynamic conflicts. More notes, more meetings without PK, stuff like that.

[Chayesh]

Anyone who thinks PK and cabal warfare are not part of RP are the same misguided individuals who think that warfare is not a part of diplomacy.

[killalou]

I only think that cabal warfare destroys RP when extremist classes are enrolled. An example would be a crusader in warmaster, or a healer in cabals other than herald and maybe *tribunal*, or an avatar in anything. These classes (and they are not the only ones just a few I mentioned) have a clear set of rules to follow, but being in a cabal twist their rp a bit. I think extremist classes should not be allowed in cabal because cabals are essential themselves extremist factions.

[Aulian]

Anyone who thinks PK and cabal warfare are not part of RP are the same misguided individuals who think that warfare is not a part of diplomacy.

<3 you Chayesh - you stick my 200 word thoughts into one sentence.

Crusaders? Whats wrong with crusaders? They are just people who follow a god and have a guild dedicated to it. They dont get any special skills like an avatar/demon/undead/vampire. Its just a class - they are just strong followers of a god and have made their own guild around it.

[Segoy]

Once again we return to the ridiculous. On one page I hear people crying out, don't put my RP in a box!!! Then the next thread will say, these Class/Race's must follows these rules.

If RP is RP then let people do whatever they want, there are consequences for having RP that doesn't fit the box, but they are part of the RP of the mud itself.

[Questioner]

Cabal Warfare is NOT a destroyer of rp. The thread statement is crude, ignorant, and not even backed up by a coherent argument.

Roleplay is only so much as what is put into roleplay. In other words, if you don't make cabal warfare a roleplay oppurtunity, then YOU are the Roleplay Destroyer. Capture the Flag in fact brings a lot of roleplay oppurtunity. Many of you just are so dull-minded that you cannot even fathom the intricate topics that arise from stealing the pride and power of an opposing force(cabal).

Besides, who says you must capture someone else's standard? Go kill the opponent for starters. Or better yet, stun them in a challenge and roleplay how you are more than a match for them. I would really like to see more roleplay intensive discussions out there than on how to kill a faerie psionicist.

[Mudder]

Cabals in vendetta should try to go for more dynamic conflicts. More notes' date=' more meetings without PK, stuff like that.[/quote']

This is dependant on the players, not the cabals.

With my Nexus Elder Sirican I sat down and had many a tea parties with Sigil Healers..

I also threatened Heralds and forced them to break ties with Tribunal to further my agenda. I threatened Herald with a vendetta. I even attacked a Herald or two to prove I was serious.

This is ALL currently possible still... You just have to get the players to do it.

One of my favorite things to do to date is to take an enemy and make them into an ally. Conflicting alignments and all. Just RP it out.

Though one change that I would LOVE to see is to make cabal warfare more a global thing.

Make even the non-caballed characters involved. We have this now with the "area" perks, like with Knight good-neuts heal more. Nexus Evil-neuts do more damage.

I would like to see something like this, but enhanced to make a decent difference. Though more an RP effect, and less PK directly. I am not entirely sure how I want it to be done, or any ideas, though they will come. I was going to post this in prayer when it was well thought out, but this topic squeezed it out of my early. What do you all think about something along these lines?

I will continue to brainstorm and probably post in the prayer with more detail.

[The Wayward Knight]

Cabal Warfare is NOT a destroyer of rp. The thread statement is crude, ignorant, and not even backed up by a coherent argument.

Roleplay is only so much as what is put into roleplay. In other words, if you don't make cabal warfare a roleplay oppurtunity, then YOU are the Roleplay Destroyer. Capture the Flag in fact brings a lot of roleplay oppurtunity. Many of you just are so dull-minded that you cannot even fathom the intricate topics that arise from stealing the pride and power of an opposing force(cabal).

Besides, who says you must capture someone else's standard? Go kill the opponent for starters. Or better yet, stun them in a challenge and roleplay how you are more than a match for them. I would really like to see more roleplay intensive discussions out there than on how to kill a faerie psionicist.

Good ending on that post, but how about not starting out by attacking me, as I am just looking for other people's opinions and you have no idea what my personal opinion is, yet? Oh, right, I'm ignorant and dull minded, my personal opinion is of no relevance. Carry on.

[Warmongrel]

I also think Cabal Warfare brings a lot of rp simply for the fact that most cabal wars are age old wars that have continued through "generations" of characters. Most strong rp'ers will atleast at some point attempt to sit down and discuss things with their enemy. Nexus and Knight are two I couldn't see doing that because there's not much to discuss due to the opposites in align. But savant and warmaster, or tribunal and watcher...these four could easily have times of peace if an agreement was met. I've done this with most of my cabaled characters in one way or another, but I do think that many times people get into cabals just so there is always excitement, always someone to fight. With those people it's a bit harder to get them to calm down long enough to rp, but there is always SOMEONE in an opposing cabal that will do it.

[The Wayward Knight]

Anyone who thinks PK and cabal warfare are not part of RP are the same misguided individuals who think that warfare is not a part of diplomacy.

Weither or not PK and Cabal Warfare are a part of RP, and weither or not the things that you are forced to do when you are in a cabal actually are roleplayed, are two different things.

[Archbishop Monk]

I personally see Cabal Pk as Rp. You are at war with the enemy. Think of it like this. Someone brings an airstrike to the place where your carriers are located. They are nearly wiped out. They have done it in the past before and show no signs of stopping this in the near-time future. Are you going to ask why they did it? Not until after you take out their ability to do it again.

On the other hand, I understand that sometimes you (figurative you) want to really get into someone's Rp because you like it. But, you can't sit around and talk with them because either you or the others you are with have to go and defend their home. That is what comes with being in a cabal. If you don't want to have to up and leave to defend but want the Rp of the cabal it's simple. Stay in the clan. Nothing says that because your trusted in a clan you have to apply to the cabal. Trusted members of a clan aren't required to defend anything, (although you might want to help out if your cabal mates are outnumbered. Depending upon cabal rp).

[Kyzarius]

Anyone who thinks PK and cabal warfare are not part of RP are the same misguided individuals who think that warfare is not a part of diplomacy.

This says it perfectly imho.

So many people seperate RP and PK...they are not seperate.

Cabal warfare does not disrupt RP, it IS YOUR RP. You want to be a part of something like a cabal, and what they represent in this game. You will have to deal with those who follow conflicting ideals. Knight and Nexus will kill each other, always. This is the nature of their conflicting paths through life in FL. Savant and Warmaster are the same thing, they are two entities that through specilized prfection of their chosen arts seek to exercise their strength to control the masses. Hence they are in conflict.

Its like (as chayesh points out) inviting someone to peace talks and when they arrive studying and assasinating them. There is nothing wrong wih that, from a RP prspective. If your chosen diplomacy is to force all the negogiators into a barn an set it afire, then you just sent a STRONG diplomatic message that you arent ready to make peace

I love how people label "RP" like it is some mystical level of chii that one must obtain and do correctly. pfft! PFFT I say! RP is merely represnting yourself in the game as the persona you intend your charater to be. RP is your behavior, not something you do at any one time or another. I always find it humerous when people say "lets go rp". Roleplaying is not a task, it is not something you do, win, hold, sit-on, it is you playing this game and doing so with an assumed persona. Just because everyone doesnt have a tea party, or sing a song, or have some emoted personality quirk doesnt mean they arent roleplaying.

Back to cabals, when you join a cabal you join a gang, you are a thug. Your part of; a troop of mages, or a cult of killers, or a family of mobsters, etc etc...They dont remove interaction (which is how your referring to "RP") they enforce it. They make you work with allies, they make you fight those who have opposing ideals (op!! arent your characters chosen ideals rp??). They make you write notes on others behavior, they make you addres polotics. Cabal people are those not ashamed to show their colors and not afraid to back it up when they have to. If your character is not the kind who wants to wear their ideals on their sleeve, to have a vulnerable position to defend, and to deal with the perks and drawbacks...then leave the cabal.

[WagesofSin]

I disagree with most of what Kyzarius has to say, but I think we simply have a different approach as well as definitions of what PK/RP is and what it entails.

If people are guilty of separating RP and Pk, then there are just as many who think of it as the same(wrongly in my opinion). PK is NOT RP. If they were the same then we wouldn't be using two different words for the same thing. Since no one seems to offer a definition of either in this discussion, I will.

PK is: A battle between two or more players concerning purely combat mechanics. I.e. Initiating a battle, fighting it, using skills/spells, can end with a death.

This is all PK is. Mechanics. Nothing more, nothing less."Player Killing" is pretty self-explanatory in itself anyway.

Rp on the other hand, i think, is more complex. I think there are two significant sides of RP. Rp interaction, and Behavior consistency.

At its core, roleplay can be defined as a code of behavior, character traits, personality, and historical background that pertain to a players character. However, simply having these things in your head don't have any automatic effect in the game most of the time(though a few things are). That is, none of your roleplay is hard coded to a large extent. Whether your character slurs his speech is up to you, whether he is an teetotaler is up to you, whether he is a womanizer is up to you. Whether your Warmaster wannabe hates magic or just wants to be a master in combat, is up to you. Hell you can even roleplay that your warmaster wants to make peace with the Savants if it's within his roleplay. My point is this: In PK the game mechanics largly decide what's going to happen to you. In Rp, YOU decide what is going to happen. Now let me move on to what I see are two distinct "spheres" within RP.

1. Behavioural code: This is the way your character acts when confronted with a certain situation. If a raid is announced on a city, does your character jump to defend it or maybe he would like to, but being a coward by nature prevents it? Indeed, PK can be and most likely will be influenced by this, but so will every thing the character does. Therefore I think it's superflous to try and say "Pk and RP are not separate". I say they ARE separate, however one is often influenced by the other and if fl is to be a proper roleplay environment all pk must be influenced by RP.

It seems to me that most players, including Kyzarius, look at this to be the sole aspect of RP. I say that is not the case. Let me move on to the second "sphere" of RP...

RP Interaction: While Pk cannot exist withour Roleplay, roleplay can exist without PK. This type of interaction is often called "tea parties" often in a tone that tries to belittle this type of interaction. Non-combat interaction like this can be just as satysfying if not more so than a PK. More importantly, it is far more likely that interaction like this will develop a persons character.

A character isn't a snapshot in time where the player thinks up a history/behavior and then never changes. He evolves and changes according to the world around him. Rp intaraction allows such changes. This, in my opinion, is what cabal warfare kills.

In cabal warfare, you fight. Non-stop. If your cabal is winning and has many active players, then yes, you have a chance for RP interaction. On the other side however(i.e. the lone knight facing 4 nexus), pretty much the only interaction you'll ever have is over a tell which is usually just a riposte to some insult they threw at you. This is the type of cabal warfare which I think has a negative impact on Roleplay. The losers just end up spending their time re-equiping and fighting for their life(that is if they don't just log off in the first place). If a player doesn't want to log on, or is prompted to log off, then that is a serious problem with the game. Games should make a person want to play it, not the other way around.

I think Wayward knight may have been prompted to post this because of a discussion he and I had about our past characters. For those of you that don't know, Wayward knight played KNIGHT Alanthen(an excellently roleplayed character IMO) who had excellent roleplay interaction with another character called Mestaria a SAVANT(my character). I won't put words in Waywards knights mouth so I hope he also posts his experience as Alanthen. I will comment on Mestaria though.

Interaction with Alanthen had a huge influence on Mestaria(and vice versa) to the extent I'd say Mestaria would be a completely different character if not for him. This is just what RP interaction should do, I had an image of who mestaria is and what she will do, then Alanthen comes in and changes everything. More importantly, the times I spent with Alanthen(as well as other players back then) were the most memorable and fun times on FL I have ever had. I have not felt that kind of satisfaction from FL since my first PK. Unfortunately, Warmaster sprouted out of the ground from nowhere and a huge cabal war took over with Lerris(a very powerful character) at its fore. The game went from having fun to tedious Cabal warfare. While I tried to roleplay doubts about the purpose of the war, the fact that it's hard coded in the game makes it difficult to do anything about it. Such doubts were even voiced by the Warmasters I fought, yet we fought cause "we had to" for some mysterious reason. Logging on became a chore with little enjoyability with constant re-equiping and dying. So I began to log on less and less then not at all. Thus ended the life of my first Cabaler.

EDIT: Okay, made my post back into the original. Sorry about that Wayward Knight!

[The Wayward Knight]

I know I didn't say who I was before, but to any IMM who reads this, it's okay, please don't lay the smackdown on Wages, he didn't know that I hadn't told anybody who I was yet. And I don't mind.

As for my experience with Alanthen, I loved that character. Alanthen was built from scratch, from the ground up based almost completely on interactions with other people. I didn't have a past for him when I made him, I made it up as I went along, and everything fell into place perfectly. He was an example of what I thought (note: THOUGHT) Knights/Paladins should be, and I know that sounds like I think a lot of myself, but really, if you didn't think your characters were examples of what the Cabal they end up in should be, you wouldn't apply for the cabal. The roleplaying aspects of Knight didn't change Alanthen for me, it only built upon his character. As Alanthen once said to Belegriel, he had the ideals of Knight in his heart and mind long before he even joined Hope. 'The Knight does not make the man, the man makes the Knight' I think is what was said. Alanthen was one of my best characters, I believe, because I had made up the decision that I was not going to bend his roleplay to fit anything other than what it fit as it was. I would let roleplay evolve him, but not my own conscious decisions or in-character threats from the immortals. For instance, Belegriel and Alanthen got into an argument over Alanthen leaving Wymsicant kneeling on the ground, because Alanthen had thought that Leveran joined in in the fight against Wymsicant. Belegriel then stripped Alanthen and Leveran of several hundred crowns and Alanthen said something to the effect of 'My honor is worth more to me than the crowns of the Knights'. Which resulted in him being stripped of T status and demoted to V. He was ready to leave the Knights right there if Belegriel tried to command him to do what he was told, rather than what he thought was right, but thankfully (or perhaps not thankfully, as I will explain soon) it was left alone as an issue of disrespect (misunderstanding), and Alanthen remained in the Knights.

If Alanthen had not been in the Knights, I would probably still have the character. When Belegriel left, I thought he was bad. Not for the Cabal, but for my character, because Alanthen was, as I thought at the time, ordered left and right on what to do, and thankfully (or again, perhaps not) none of these things conflicted with Alanthen's ideals. Then Raargant took over, and I realized what it was really like to be ordered around left and right. Again, this is not to say that Raargant was bad for the cabal, but he was certainly a bad (note: not badly roleplayed) influence on Alanthen's character. Then I realized what it meant to be in a cabal: I would have to play a character that either had absolutely NO ideals that conflicted with what the cabal immortal/elders/leader wanted, or, I would have to play a character whose ideals were flexible, based on the OOC wish to remain in a cabal and be a part of the team or to the direction he was going as a character.

In the end, I abandoned the character for a while, taking a breather and intending to return to him sometime in the future. Then I got the bright (no sarcasm) idea to try to get into college, and finding that Alanthen had been removed from the cabal for less than a month of inactivity after being almost the only Knight in existence for what I remember (perhaps incorrectly) to be more than a month and a half cemented my decision to ask the immortals to remove him from the Mud entirely instead of shelfing him for later. In Alanthen's words 'You would think the Knights would understand a personal crusade. I suppose I was wrong.'

I didn't die often, but I sure as hell didn't like getting online anymore, because though I learned from most of my fights (many of them with Morchial, whom greatly influenced Alanthen's character PRE-CABAL) I didn't feel like I was getting enough time to actually develop my character any further. The times when Alanthen was able to actually interact with other people and not have to re-equip, recapture a standard, defend a standard, defend himself, attack somebody, or generally do something else he was told to do were few and far between. From an in-character standpoint, Alanthen became disillusioned with life in the Castle. I stood at Trusted with maybe one other person active in the cabal, for brief periods two, for quite a while. If I wanted to be rewarded for things I felt I did that deserved rewarding, I would say that I should have been an Elder, if not the Leader of the cabal much sooner than it was done. (Just my opinion, and I'm not the only one who thinks that.)

The only real development of Alanthen's character happened before the cabal war began to get heavy. Mestaria, Cormin, Argus, and many others helped define Alanthen in my mind, and when I played the character and I was able to interact with them, it was almost like I wasn't even playing a game anymore. I was becoming that person. I was Alanthen. I felt his feelings, and his thoughts. That is true immersion into the character, something that simply does not happen to me when I am forced to simply run around wordlessly attempting to kill my enemy. I say wordlessly because, as most of you know, it's very difficult to roleplay during combat, though most people who fought against Alanthen know that I sure as hell tried. But when it came to fighting more than one Nexus at a time, there wasn't time to roleplay -and- survive. I died frequently due to using says and emotes in combat with Nexus in crucial moments, such as right before I flee, only to be lagged by them because of the miniscule amount of time between the say/emote and the next command, or the time it takes to type.

I miss Alanthen, and I wish sometimes that I could still play him, but if I could I almost certainly would not put him back into Knight. He's not the near cookie-cutter shape that is required to fit into a cabal and not have to bend your roleplay or evolve in a way that the character wouldn't normally evolve. I have made characters in the past that were. He wasn't one of them, and neither was Drendan.

[WagesofSin]

Actually didnt you leave a Goodbye post a long time ago?

EDIT: Doh! din't realize something, sorry I'll edit my original post.

[The Wayward Knight]

Un-edit it, it's fine. I don't care, and besides, without that paragraph there, it makes my post look stupid.