Cabal Warfare: Destroyer of Roleplay

[J.Twendrist]

Alanthen was a really cool character. I was sad when he just dissapeared.

[The Forsaken]

This is all PK is. Mechanics. Nothing more, nothing less."Player Killing" is pretty self-explanatory in itself anyway.

RP Interaction: While Pk cannot exist withour Roleplay, roleplay can exist without PK.

Mechanics can exist without Roleplay. If PK is nothing more than mechanics, then you are contradicting yourself.

It seems to me that most players' date=' including Kyzarius, look at this to be the sole aspect of RP. I say that is not the case. Let me move on to the second "sphere" of RP...[/quote']

I don't think Kyzarius was saying that PK is the sole aspect of RP. But in the reality of things. PK is the way most inforce their RP. My RP is that I don't like cookie eaters. If someone is a cookie eater, what do I do? Pat them on the head and say quit eating cookies? Ok...what if he still wants to eat cookies? PK. So, in essence, that PK was RP. That PK was more than mechanics. It was a role-playing session. Where you RP'd your dislike for cookie eaters by killing one.

[Tantangel]

I want a cookie now. Bastard.

[The Wayward Knight]

As do I.

[EyeSeeU]

See what happens when I am away for too long? Chaos sweeps the forums... As for a decent add to this thread I shall have to ponder a bit more then maybe I will add my two sense.

[Chayesh]

PK is more than mechanics. It is an extreme aspect of the spectrum of interactions that make up what we call RP. You can RP that you don't PK, as mentioned by Pali in another thread, and as others have done. You can RP that you will only PK under certain circumstances. Or you can cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war for someone tipping their hat. Either way, RP and PK can never be divested from one another.

As for RP, Kyzarius is absolutely correct in saying that RP is not a task you perform or something that you "go do". RP is the total sum of your character; their soul if you will. It is how they talk, move, emote, breathe, etc...yes all these things and yet so much more. It is how they feel, how they think, how they respond to pressure, how they express their emotions, if they have any emotions. It is their drive, their desires, their greatest sadness and richest successes. It is like drowning in the essence of who they are until, gasping for breath, you log out. It is dressing in the same armor, regardless of its strength, or lack thereof, because it fits your character. It is the antithesis of power gaming. It is choosing the odd race/class combination because it makes a statement or impact or, hell, just because you think it would be fun. We all remember fun, don't we?

Tied up in all that I just mentioned is, of course, PK. But it's who you PK, how you PK, what you do when you finish, what led to it, and what follows, that really matter because that is what makes it simply a piece of RP, the defining creative force of will for your character.

[Mudder]

Nerd.

[Deykari]

Whilst in that respect, PK is roleplaying, I think what Wages/Wayward Knight are getting at is the difference between roleplaying through fighting, and roleplaying through other means.

Whilst say, talking and fighting are both forms of roleplay, they are different. One of them involves fighting, the other involves talking, notes, tells, and interactions that don't involve fighting. I think what they're getting at, is that when you join a Cabal, whereas before you had no duties, no responsibilities and you could sit and RP (and in this sense, I mean RP without fighting) with people all day, now you have responsibilities. You are expected to fight for your Cabal and if you have multiple, active enemies, your life suddenly revolves around roleplaying through PK (defending your Cabal's ideals/asserting your Cabal's ideals aggressively) as opposed to maybe being able to talk with people all the time.

Now, if that's not what you meant, I apologise. But I've spoken with you before about it back when you were on the forums, back when I had Wymsicant and you had Alanthen. You mentioned about how you had the opportunity to roleplay with others, in a living, breathing world - until you became a Knight. How when myself and other Nexus were on, you had to drop the mini plots you had going with others to come defend the Castle/attack our fortress. Your RP log there is a good example of this, you even mention you having to go because I attacked your Castle.

If that's what you mean, I see what you're getting at. But, joining a Cabal (one heavily involved with war and combat at that) is true to life in the sense that by joining the Cabal, you are signing up and agreeing to carry out the duties of that Cabal when required. If you were signed up to the army, back at home with your family and suddenly your homeland was attacked and you were called to instantly take to arms, that would be the same sort of thing.

When you join a Cabal, I can see how effectively, depending on the Cabal and who plays in what cabal at the time, you kill off your ability to be able to sit around and talk with others. But by the same token, you become a lot more involved with your Cabal allies, your clan, and your enemies. Whilst it can be hard, some of my greatest non-PK interactions have been with Cabal enemies and cabal allies.

And just to add, about your point, Wayward, about the demotion you got for not killing me - that in itself, is roleplay. You brought a Nexian Demon, sworn enemy of the Knights, down before you... and chose to let it live. Now whilst your character's morals may dictate that would be the proper course of action, such isn't the case for Knight (at least, at the time of Belegriel's ruling). As with many things, if you are part of a group that promotes a cause, and your own beliefs lead you to do something that your group doesn't agree with, you are penalised.

Sorry for rambling on here, hope you understand what I mean.

Dey

[Kyzarius]

And just to add, about your point, Wayward, about the demotion you got for not killing me - that in itself, is roleplay. You brought a Nexian Demon, sworn enemy of the Knights, down before you... and chose to let it live. Now whilst your character's morals may dictate that would be the proper course of action, such isn't the case for Knight (at least, at the time of Belegriel's ruling). As with many things, if you are part of a group that promotes a cause, and your own beliefs lead you to do something that your group doesn't agree with, you are penalised.

Thats the point I was trying to make. You getting demoted, being chagrined by the orders you recieve. Having conflict with the wishes of the cabal imm and your characters own wishes. This is RP. So in truth you werent cut off from rp at all. You just chose not to recognize that ALL outside influences in the game and your characters response to them is roleplaying. Being demoted was just a reaction to your roleplayed decision not to finish off an opponent in this case.

[Ex-D&Der]

Chayesh is right, and I always found RP that revolves around your character's PK (or cabal) interaction, history, ambitions, to be the only memorable RP--except to a lesser extent that revolving around ranking. Sitting around and just making stuff up with no real basis in the MUD never really interested me. Saying PK has nothing to do with RP sounds really ignorant to me. And I'm really glad to hear someone defending the idea of choosing a race and class for RP reasons and then facing the PK that you have to deal with. The same can be true of a choice of cabal. If cabal wars don't fit into your RP, then I would say you shouldn't have chosen that cabal.

I don't fault anyone for making a power combo and then making up some RP to justify it, but I think from a purist perspective it's more admirable in a sense to take the other road.

[WagesofSin]

Bah, the same old party line. Yet no one has even addressed mine nor Waywards arguments. Some times I wonder why I even bother...

[The Forsaken]

Uhh....Pretty sure I did. Here, let me copy and paste for you.

This is all PK is. Mechanics. Nothing more, nothing less."Player Killing" is pretty self-explanatory in itself anyway.

RP Interaction: While Pk cannot exist withour Roleplay, roleplay can exist without PK.

Mechanics can exist without Roleplay. If PK is nothing more than mechanics, then you are contradicting yourself.

It seems to me that most players' date=' including Kyzarius, look at this to be the sole aspect of RP. I say that is not the case. Let me move on to the second "sphere" of RP...[/quote']

I don't think Kyzarius was saying that PK is the sole aspect of RP. But in the reality of things. PK is the way most inforce their RP. My RP is that I don't like cookie eaters. If someone is a cookie eater, what do I do? Pat them on the head and say quit eating cookies? Ok...what if he still wants to eat cookies? PK. So, in essence, that PK was RP. That PK was more than mechanics. It was a role-playing session. Where you RP'd your dislike for cookie eaters by killing one.

[WagesofSin]

Mechanics can exist without Roleplay. If PK is nothing more than mechanics, then you are contradicting yourself.

Being that FL is a Pk AND Rp MUD, Pk cannot exist without roleplay. I should have noted that I was speaking within the context of this MUD. My bad.

I don't think Kyzarius was saying that PK is the sole aspect of RP. But in the reality of things. PK is the way most inforce their RP. My RP is that I don't like cookie eaters. If someone is a cookie eater, what do I do? Pat them on the head and say quit eating cookies? Ok...what if he still wants to eat cookies? PK. So, in essence, that PK was RP. That PK was more than mechanics. It was a role-playing session. Where you RP'd your dislike for cookie eaters by killing one.

If the only interaction you had with the cookie eater was killing him, well that's not RP. Interaction is comunicating, it's acting out, most importantly you're supposed to make the gaming experience interesting for the other person as much as yourself. Besides I'm not saying that PK can't be a part of Roleplay, remember that. The topic was about Cabal warfare and Roleplay which is a topic we are moving away from.

It's in Cabal warfare that Roleplay seems to take the role of a backburner. Then again, maybe I'm too inexperienced. I've only been in 2 cabals(Mestaria in Savant and Girnibac in Tribunal) and maybe it's just because most of the time I was either on the losing side or horrendously outnumbered so that I could do nothing 'cept attempt to keep my head above the water.

[The Forsaken]

Being that FL is a Pk AND Rp MUD' date=' Pk cannot exist without roleplay. I should have noted that I was speaking within the context of this MUD. My bad.[/quote']

In my eyes, FL is a RP mud that allows PK.

[WagesofSin]

I'd like FL to be an RP mud that allows PK, but in my experience FL seems more like a PK mud without the OOC and leet speak. Though I am generalizing. Some of you are good roleplayers, damn good.

[Kyzarius]

the only interaction you had with the cookie eater was killing him, well that's not RP. Interaction is comunicating, it's acting out, most importantly you're supposed to make the gaming experience interesting for the other person as much as yourself. Besides I'm not saying that PK can't be a part of Roleplay, remember that. The topic was about Cabal warfare and Roleplay which is a topic we are moving away from.

No, its not. The gripe was that combat that results from cabal warfare takes away from roleplaying. This is incorrect, because PK is roleplaying. It is a function of the environment.

Your statement above, Wages, shows where you seem to have this misconception about what roleplaying is. Roleplaying is existing as your character in the fantastical world that is FL. If others exist in this world who are mindless killers, then thats just part of the environment. Saying "oh he just tried to kill me, thats not roleplaying" is like me saying "pfft the other cars on the road dont count today!"

So, in the example you cited, the "cookie hater" is Roleplaying that they hates cookies and kills on site because of it. Just because they dont say hello first and do some emote doesnt mean they are not roleplaying their character. The only way they would not be roleplaying is if they, in real life, kill cookie eaters on site.

There is also the issue of perspective. The "cookie hater" might be a scholar who to fifteen other players helps them equip, talks to them about the weather and invites them to tea with Biscuits (since they hate cookies) but you only see the side shown to you.

PK is just as much a part of RP as the ground sky and trees. It is the effect other players have on you. It is why people cant claim to be "the supreme dark dark darkity dark ruler" unless they can truly fight off their opponents. It is also the reason that said ruler gets dethroned and left naked on the street. All of this is part of your character, and ignoreing PK as a part of roleplaying means your not roleplaying...

[Ex-D&Der]

PK is just as much a part of RP as the ground sky and trees. It is the effect other players have on you. It is why people cant claim to be "the supreme dark dark darkity dark ruler" unless they can truly fight off their opponents. It is also the reason that said ruler gets dethroned and left naked on the street. All of this is part of your character' date=' and ignoreing PK as a part of roleplaying means your not roleplaying...[/quote']

Well said.

[The Wayward Knight]

I think you are missing the key issue here. Pk is an aspect of roleplaying, yes.

Is pk always roleplayed?

[English lad]

If it isn't it gets punished. For an evil its acceptable RP just to kill because you like it, especially a scourge or cycle or something like that. Personally I don't like the fact that its acceptable, and I think there should be something more, but thats how it is.

Also you say that PK interrupted your RP, but heres the breaks. Play your character not your own desires. You want to have a cool RP session, but would your character prefer to stay talking to a girl whilst Hordes of Darkness overan his home? If he would then great, follow your RP, not defending the Castle will get you Demoted, maybe even Chucked out, but thats not an OOC punishment..Its all still IC action, otherwise known as RP. You don't have to be the cookie cutter character, if you think your character would finish what he was doing rather than defend the castle then do it..Just don't expect to be a Knight long..not because theres a problem with Cabal Warfare, but because the RP that YOU CHOSE for your char isn't an appropriate one for a Knight.

The whole thing is RP, you don't get to pick and chose when its your chars RP to fight or not, decide what sort of a Person he is and stick to it.

[WagesofSin]

I don't think I'm getting out my thoughts clearly since people seem to misconstrue them. Sure Kyzarius, we are in agreement. That cookie hater that killed the cookie eater with out ever talking to him is RP. Sure ok. We are in agreement. But I ask you this, did it create an enjoyable experience for the players? I don't think so. The hater got a quick pk while the eater stands at his pit wondering what the hell happened. Now what if there was a little bit of roleplay before the cookie hater killed the cookie eater. Perhaps the cookie hater took one of the cookie eaters cookies and crumbled it in his presence. immidiately the cookie eater laments the loss of his cookie while the cookie hater laughs in face before initaiting PK.

The difference with the second incident is that it developed both characters more fully. It fleshed them out. For me that would be justification for the PK. if the roleplay before hand was enjoyable then even if the cookie eater dies and get's full looted it was worth playing and logging on that day. This is what is lacking in FL and I think this is one of the reasons people delete so quickly. To them roleplay is just acting in character, but it's too much work to create interesting interactions with other characters(usually for the simple fact that they need the element of surprise to win). This to me is poor roleplay. Acting in character should be the bare minimum. We should really expect more from out players.

Thankfully the Good Pkers are usually good roleplayers and are able to do this. I can only hope people learn from their examples.