Fury

Since so many people have so much to say - lets hear it: What's your beef with fury?

Lets see:

1. Makes it harder for you to cast

2. Helps Kitty (ferals) to not get fried vs those that can cast fire spells

3. On a race that has a vuln which is accessible by SO many easy to get weapons. Even worse is that several of these are rare and have very, VERY decent damage attached to them

4. There race's stat's aren't that bad - but are not super either

5. Have some defensive and offensive benefits

Overall I see ferals a high offense race that has HUGE risk. The abdance of fire weapons (its one for everyone weapon type isn't it?) means anytime you fight you're likely to face a vuln situation. Worse, several of these weapons ARE rare and have high damage. I can tell you a fiery dagger will get a MUTILATE or LACERATE very easily through sanc on a feral which is a lot of damage.

When discussing you might want to bear in mind that the balance must be considered in view of the entire game and not one or two matchups.

So, get out your soapboxes and lets here what you all have to say.....

Lytholm.

For reference:

Feral can be the following classes:

Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Ninja, Blademaster, Cleric, and Shaman

Stat Maxes:

STR: 19 INT: 18 WIS: 21 DEX: 24 CON: 20

Lytholm.

i fail to see why fury is such a big deal. Their vuln is huge and the gear that covers it is almost always VERY sought after by other races / classes as well.

I like ferals. As having played one recently, the only thing I could suggest is to take away fury stacking. This racial tactic should help you in a fight. It shouldn't be the fight.

I think they are fine as is... except maybe the stacking part as listed above. That is a little annoying.

Drop their dex from 24 to 22, or 21. I don't much care about the skill fury, but having the second highest dex to maximize the effect of parry/dualparry/dodge at 103% and not really get hit by such fire weapons is a bit.. over the edge. I don't think I've chose a fire weapon to fight a feral in a very long time because there's better choices to be made to win you the fight. Plus, the weapons that are rare and have high avg and are made of fire, are far too easy to parry.

I completely agree with the fact that they're fine, except for the fury stacking.

Drop their dex from 24 to 22' date=' or 21. I don't much care about the skill fury, but having the second highest dex to maximize the effect of parry/dualparry/dodge at 103% and not really get hit by such fire weapons is a bit.. over the edge. I don't think I've chose a fire weapon to fight a feral in a very long time because there's better choices to be made to win you the fight. Plus, the weapons that are rare and have high avg and are made of fire, are far too easy to parry.[/quote']

I've killed a feral with using almost nothing but fired weapons and keeping my distance... i dont know if i can agree with this statement. I don't think arrows can be avoided that way..

Ferals are a balanced race, the last character to really decimate with one was Warmongrel's Svenik. Svenik was powerful, but as an ogre would have maybe been meaner vs mages. The point here is Fury is a nice skill, but its no more overpowering than slith autotrip, chameleon, anti dirt. Or Autosneak (I hate this perk more than anything) or even Minotaur charge. Ferals have big enough drawbacks. Take away fury and they become humans with a mean vuln.

I think they are pretty much fine. They NEED the high melee defense because they have such a low HP base.

The reason ogres will always be stronger is because they can soak up UNBLOCKABLE damage, such as arrows and bashes. You can kill feral on bash damage alone.

Low HP + largest vuln in the game (spell and melee) means they should have some MAJOR perks.

Also keep in mind, that when this race was designed, it was assuming 18 for average stats, not 20, with a cap at 25! So, as the helpfile says, they were intended to be STRONGER than humans-->it should have been a 21 str, which was an oversight that wasn't noticed until after Viri left.

Feral are already weaker than they were designed to be, stats-wise.

I think they are pretty much fine. They NEED the high melee defense because they have such a low HP base.

The reason ogres will always be stronger is because they can soak up UNBLOCKABLE damage, such as arrows and bashes. You can kill feral on bash damage alone.

Low HP + largest vuln in the game (spell and melee) means they should have some MAJOR perks.

Also keep in mind, that when this race was designed, it was assuming 18 for average stats, not 20, with a cap at 25! So, as the helpfile says, they were intended to be STRONGER than humans-->it should have been a 21 str, which was an oversight that wasn't noticed until after Viri left.

Feral are already weaker than they were designed to be, stats-wise.

Out of curiousity how did you and Viri (two very adept MUD minds here at FL) use 18 for avg stat when humans play off a base of 20 (with +1 depending on class)?

I don't actually think that more str for a feral would be a good idea (at least not without taking away dex...). They already have an offensive bonus that assists them here.

Lytholm.

I agree, Fury is quite Overpowering for a Mage. It will make your spells fail half the time, reducing your fighting ability by half (invockers).

I do not find the Fire vulnerability a solution as it does not doubles your fire spells damage output.

Non good Battlemages can dance "Infeno", and it aids.

Clerics are a pain, unless you happen to be a "fire" Domain Cleric, or have a Unique Mace.

Then there is the special Combo. A Feral Chance (Discord included) Cleric "holy hands + fury" make an incredible Combo vs commoners.

My strategy vs this case is probably Mindflayer Flee-murder, and even then he knows what direction you fled.

This all just to give you some tips.

Get +Spell proficiency gear and + Luck gear.

• 15% Ray/Path is enough. To bad only +5% fireball.

The ideal would be the introduction of a +10% Flame Arrow Item.

Remember proficiencies are capped at 110%. Which is ideal for skills, and bad for spells.

As a cleric, there is also a Wand of DemonFire that should provide some nasty surprise. With the fix (1.5 years ago) of Holy Hands, you can now attack/defend while holding a Wand/Staff. Take advantage of this Holy Hands perk.

Pitty that there is not some Wand of 10 charges of 56 Fireball, now that would be fun. It would be putting the Fear back into Fireball.

From another thread.

Lytholm.

Mya:

• There is an item that gives a bonus to flame arrow.

• Demonfire != fire (and if its acting that way its a bug and it needs to be put on Prayer).

Lytholm.

I think they are pretty much fine. They NEED the high melee defense because they have such a low HP base.

The reason ogres will always be stronger is because they can soak up UNBLOCKABLE damage, such as arrows and bashes. You can kill feral on bash damage alone.

Low HP + largest vuln in the game (spell and melee) means they should have some MAJOR perks.

Also keep in mind, that when this race was designed, it was assuming 18 for average stats, not 20, with a cap at 25! So, as the helpfile says, they were intended to be STRONGER than humans-->it should have been a 21 str, which was an oversight that wasn't noticed until after Viri left.

Feral are already weaker than they were designed to be, stats-wise.

I sure wouldn't have minded 21str But really 20 instead of 19 would make a Huge difference. Missed out on several weapons I was seeking because of it.

I don't see what the big deal is with fury stacking, I never even knew it did stack. Hell, when you land it once it only lasts 0 hours sometimes 1. And even with it mastered I probably failed to fury 50% of the time. I would usually lead off with it, and then not do it again. Not to mention, I don't think there was a single situation where someone failed to cast word of recall while they were furied with 50 hp against me Always seemed to keep working when they needed it most. As far as dodging most attacks, yes they do have great defenses, but damn that fire hurts bad! I would fight someone wearing a fire weapon and they would get one-two hits per round compared to my 17 (give or take a few ) and they would still outdamage me many times. Against invokers, even with most of the best eq in the game, and all sorts of special warmaster extra damage moves, it was always a very close call, and usually only if they lost concentration atleast once (which was usually all they would if I was lucky would be losing it one cast out of the fight) would I beat them at all.

The only situation I can really think of that would make this REALLY tip the scales is if two mages are fighting each other. But again, you get a decent fire weapon, and you don't have to cast anything against that feral, that feral mage will get beat with the other mages melee alone more often than not.

Don't get me wrong, I think ferals are a great class, and they're a lot of fun, but they're far from over powered. I don't think anything about them is OP. I think they should actually get slightly higher hp than they do. I mean come on, cats got nine lives right how about giving them eight instead, and putting one of those lives into a healthier other 8.

• Demonfire != fire (and if its acting that way its a bug and it needs to be put on Prayer).

I an 99% sure it is.

From personal experience with Dagoneto, I've fought certain Fire giant cleric (while using ice weapon) with demofire up, I was doing decimates/devastates. With fire shield down - LACERATES/DISMEMBERS.

While I was using water damage it was maims/MUTILATES.

As for Mya's statement about ferals with discord religion, this is really laughable Mya, I won't even comment it.

So, people talking about ferals being OP now? Was svenik wooping you so bad really? I didn't consider him THAT strong and that was mostly due to his fire vuln.

Ferals have THE BIGGEST vuln after ogres (who are bascly vulnerable to everything). Communers? You have fire shield. You have flamestrike. You have a plethora of HIGH DAMAGE fire weapons (just look at the silly log of your elf cleric against the feral warrior who was DECKED Mya). Invokers have multiple fire damage spells, a shield that stays with you for a long time and then there is firestorm. How can you even be complaining is beyond me.

Ferals' con is so low, they NEED those few extra things to survive. You are worried about ferals furying you? Fury, just as any skill is dependant on your AC. I have failed fury after fury after fury while eating fireballs, flamestrikes, flame arrows and every other fire spell you can think of. Not just that, but as soon as fury lands, you can simply flee, run around for a while till it drops and the re-engage. Not to mention that fury itself is very unreliable and the stacking effect only works for duration and not for effectiveness. And to ne more accurate, Mya, your spells fail less than 1/3 of the time, not 50%.

I actually consider them underpowered. What is so much about them? They have low HP, they have low STR so they either have to choose high saves and pathetic damage output, or low saves and high damage output.

If you are playing a c/c and are being destroyed by a feral whatever, then either the player is VERY strong and decked and holding a high rank in his cabal, or you simply are doing something wrong.

As for Mya, she whines for anything that has even the slightest advantage against her mages. It is getting old dear.

PS. I am yet to face a warrior as strong most of the Giant warriors are. I am yet to face a ranger as strong as Ogre rangers usually are. I am yet to face a cleric who is even slighty as strong as drows/fire giants/elves/duergars/dwarves are. For BLMs there are much better selections as well.

[edit] You want a strong race? Look at Dwarves. Look at halflings in certain combos (hell I am tempted to roll halfing BLM in WM). Look at sliths. Look at Minos. Even elves and drows are quite powerful since their vuln is exploitable by only 4 classes and noone ever bothers really.

Demonfire is not fire damage. It's negative damage.

Uh, FYI.

...

(And we're talking about the wand that casts it.. not the divine intervention you're all up and about. That's obviously what the noun says.)

Out of curiousity how did you and Viri (two very adept MUD minds here at FL) use 18 for avg stat when humans play off a base of 20 (with +1 depending on class)?

I don't actually think that more str for a feral would be a good idea (at least not without taking away dex...). They already have an offensive bonus that assists them here.

Lytholm.

In my case, many other rpgs use 18 as the human max, so that is how I made the oversight. I have no idea about Viri...

The way I see it is that feral ninja and thieves don't need the strength bonus at all. Feral warriors/blms really need it and the communers I feel so-so about. You see, this is the problem I've been ranting about---hard to balance a race, we need to think about by combo!

Feral rangers? They need it to compare with ogre rangers, but rangers in general need to have a lower melee damage output. I want to see them played more like rogues than pure melees. Rangers fight like Syndicate warriors with hide and acupuncture and---but that is for another thread. Mmm, easy solve here is no giant-sized rangers!

Feral rangers? They need it to compare with ogre rangers' date=' but rangers in general need to have a lower melee damage output. I want to see them played more like rogues than pure melees. Rangers fight like Syndicate warriors with hide and acupuncture and---but that is for another thread. Mmm, easy solve here is no giant-sized rangers! [/quote']

Ogre or stone giants rangers should have a lower chance of camouflaging successfully due to their size.

I've played a bunch of ferals now, and I have to say that I think they are balanced well.

Fury is useful, sure, but no matter how many times it stacks, you can still get hit with spells. I was just fighting Erfanol and I hit fury three times an a row and still he casts. It helps, but it's not the mage-killer it's made out to be.

That in addition to the vuln makes ferals an easy target race. I can't tell you how many times a thief, or an invoker, or anyone who can get their hands on a fiery dagger has come after me, just because they want to exploit the vuln. What other race has such an obvious and easy bullseye on their ***?

The comments on Demonfire are intriguing.

i have found that the negative effects of fire shield (incoming fire damage increased) effect demonfire.