HBwillie Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 No, but Tony Romo might as well! Yes, neither of us are finishing this feud until sunday night! Romo's gay? Because he threw some interceptions? Hell...if that constitutes gayness, please refer to Brady's stats coming into the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 The thing about marriage being only a religious thing is pretty bogus these days. Many non-religious people get married, for both personal and monetary reasons. It makes no sense that people that are the same as you and I are not allowed the same rights. In twenty years we are all going to look back and be embarrassed. (well maybe not me because im not a bigot yaaay) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangelion Posted October 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 So, today has been both enlightening and disheartening. There are a lot more open-minded people in the world (read: at JMU) than I thought there would be. However, there were also a number of very close-minded people that I saw/heard about, including one showdown on the quad, when a guy told a male friend he was gay. It's actually kind of sad to see the way some people overreact. It's none of their goddamned business. You don't see any Christians out there preaching against liars, or children who show disrespect for their parents. Those break the ten commandments, not just some vague line out of one book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'tarako Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 'Wouldn't it be interesting to see if everyone could try and be nice to everyone else for a day? Not possible i know but it would be an interesting thing to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icor Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Uhh, just because some people don't accept homosexuality doesn't make them close-minded. You're starting to be insulting, cut it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangelion Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Actually, that's pretty much the definition of close-minded. You're confusing acceptance with approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinicky Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 The thing about marriage being only a religious thing is pretty bogus these days. Many non-religious people get married' date=' for both personal and monetary reasons. It makes no sense that people that are the same as you and I are not allowed the same rights. In twenty years we are all going to look back and be embarrassed. (well maybe not me because im not a bigot yaaay)[/quote'] I never said other people shared my view. However, I believe that marriage originated as a sacred, God-sanctioned establishment, and I still hold to that. Do many, even most, disagree with my view? Probably. That doesn't change my view, however. And what they do behind closed doors IS their business. Do I agree with it? No. Do I go out and stand on a box with a picket sign preaching against them? No. There are a lot of people that do things I do not agree with. Unless it hurts themselves or another, I will generally keep my mouth shut. By doing so do I therefore accept and condone their behavior? Of course not. And to be perfectly candid, I believe that I have managed to fairly successfully share my views without being disparaging or hateful to anyone on either side. I certainly hope I have not been offensive - I have numerous gay friends that I love to death. But you, Elfdude... insinuating that because my views differ from your own I am a bigot, and then furthermore hinting that you, of course NOT being a bigot yourself, are therefore on a level above me... yeah, that REALLY offends me, and I'm quite irritated about it. We have thus far been able to have a rather lengthy conversation about a rather volatile topic without spouting hate speech. Mind if you continue the trend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinicky Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Tantagel - as for church and state... The 1st amendment was put in place to prevent the government from forcing religion upon anyone. Especially since part of the reason for our Independence was persecution for differing religious views. However, the foundational underpinnings of our legal system are based not on religion, but certainly on Judeo-Christian ethics. Look at the opening passage for the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness Notice a distinctly religious undertone? Now, while I agree that we should never force people to observe any particular religion, nor should we persecute anyone for following any differing religion, the morality of the people should be reflected in the laws of the nation. Or even better, it should rise ABOVE the morality of the people. As such, by promoting what I believe to be moral and right, I am doing my duty as an American. If the majority disagrees with me, I will likely be shut down. But it is my responsibility to speak up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icor Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Actually, that's pretty much the definition of close-minded. You're confusing acceptance with approval. Then you know what I meant. For example, I dont approve of homosexuality, but I am still open-minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfdude Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Hell yea, if you hate on someone based on their sexual preference you are a bigot in my view. Marriage is no longer just religious, it is a legal issue now. That is why it should be completely legal for every gay person to marry who the **** they want to. Its just like not allowing to black people to vote or something redik like that, its all ****ing bull**** but 'eh, your opinion is your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahlos Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I'm not even going to get involved here. Smartest post in this thread. Ya'll know this topic leads to nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I think this was Balinor's way of coming out. We love you man, it's okay, you are safe here with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The End Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I think this was Balinor's way of coming out. We love you man, it's okay, you are safe here with us. Amen Brother, we will hate you JUST AS MUCH if you are gay, bi, lesbo or tranny. No extra hate here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinicky Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Hell yea' date=' if you hate on someone based on their sexual preference you are a bigot in my view. Marriage is no longer just religious, it is a legal issue now. That is why it should be completely legal for every gay person to marry who the **** they want to. Its just like not allowing to black people to vote or something redik like that, its all ****ing bull**** but 'eh, your opinion is your opinion.[/quote'] So let me get this straight. I don't agree with homosexuality, yet I still hang with gay friends and refuse to bash or hate on them at all. That makes me a bigot? To be honest, you are the only individual on here who has spouted hatred and intolerance. In my eyes, that makes YOU the bigot. Or are you of the thought that because your view MUST be the only correct one, you have the right to bash anyone who disagrees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 The Declaration of Independence has absolutely nothing to do with the United States government, how it is set up or how it is meant to run. The Constitution does, and at not a single point in the Constitution do you see anything remotely religious in nature. Our legal system was influenced far more by the humanism of thinkers like Locke and the Roman/Greek democratic systems than it was by Judeo-Christian ethics (which, frankly, are fairly general in the first place... "don't lie", "don't steal", and "don't murder" are rules EVERY society has had). EDIT: As for the 1st Amendment... "The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, and 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment), emphasis mine. Now, if there is an identifiable secular purpose in restricting gay marriage, please feel free to let us know what it is. If there isn't, then it has no place being put into United States law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflayer Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I think this was Balinor's way of coming out. I don't think there's a closet door big enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinicky Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Pali~ I am in complete agreement with you that the same rights available to straight individuals and couples should be made available to homosexual individuals and couples. I do not believe that any person should be treated any differently based on their appearance, belief system, or lifestyle provided that said lifestyle does not infringe upon the rights of others. The initial concern I conveyed was a disagreement with the morality of a homosexual lifestyle. As such, I will not support that choice. I support their right to MAKE that choice, I just don't agree with it. Much as I support the right for people to choose a promiscuous lifestyle (not comparing the two as similar, simply as an analogy), but I openly share my belief that promiscuity is immoral (to those who are open to hearing my view - I don't go about preaching to people). The point I was making with the Declaration of Independence is that Judeo-Christian views laid a foundation for our nation. While the Declaration of Independence is not a governing document, it DOES lay out the reasons that we chose to CREATE this nation. As such, I think you can agree that it is a vitally important document in declaring what this nation is about. The Constitution is largely a document laying out the functions and limits of the three branches of government. Even in church charters, you will often find that the laying out of the order in which the church is run deals predominantly with the people, the hierarchy, and the purpose and limitations of church offices and committees. The religious element, while it may be vaguely touched upon in some charters, generally only comes out in the declaration of faith, the church mission/vision statement, or the church's declaration of purpose. It is the same here. Now, I do not contend nor do I wish for our nation to be a theocracy. I am merely stating that much of the moral framework for our nation was founded upon Christian concepts. I do not, however, think that overtly religious promptings have any part in the law. People need the freedom to choose. As to a secular view of gay marriage? Well, traditionally, marriage has been defined as a family concept, containing therein the concepts of bearing and rearing children. Today, the concept of family and, subsequently, marriage, are being redefined. I hold to a more traditional view, and attempt to defend that more classical definition. Do I believe that rights should be different for gay and straight couples? Absolutely not. I may disagree with their lifestyle choice, but they should not be viewed any differently than anyone else. So what if I don't agree with it? It's THEIR choice, and they don't deserve to be treated any differently because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 As to a secular view of gay marriage? Well, traditionally, marriage has been defined as a family concept, containing therein the concepts of bearing and rearing children. Today, the concept of family and, subsequently, marriage, are being redefined. I hold to a more traditional view, and attempt to defend that more classical definition. Do I believe that rights should be different for gay and straight couples? Absolutely not. I may disagree with their lifestyle choice, but they should not be viewed any differently than anyone else. So what if I don't agree with it? It's THEIR choice, and they don't deserve to be treated any differently because of it. Fair enough. So would you then be supportive of civil unions for gay couples that convey all the privileges marriage does for hetero couples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinicky Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Yes. And I would hope the same thing is in place for long-term couples that cohabitate. I don't agree with either one, but they should have the same rights as everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Yes. And I would hope the same thing is in place for long-term couples that cohabitate. I don't agree with either one, but they should have the same rights as everyone else. Then you and I have no argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangelion Posted October 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 So uh... Thank you guys for a productive, relatively flame-free discussion regarding a uniquely volatile topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinicky Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Agreed. Props and much respect to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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