My feelings about PK/RP

[Ex-D&Der]

I think it takes someone with serious PK cred to say this.

That said, I concur that what the MUD really needs is coded rewards for baking.

And I think it basically comes down to Crypticant leaving. The RP has never been rewarded the same since. At that time it was rewarded in concrete ways, but always through IMM intervention. Cabals were chiefly given as rewards for RP for instance. I don't think this could really be hard-coded without just becoming an avenue for power-gaming.

But Myrek is right. You can still play this as a role-playing game, without playing "RP characters." I do. Develop a character based on RP and stick to it, fight the battles you have to fight. Take your deaths. But your characters won't achieve the same notoriety.

[The Wayward Knight]

I think you have probably just opened up a huge can of dragon worms that are going to eat your face, Ex.

[Tantangel]

I think what it is is that people don't really know the RP of others and just think that people are killing for absolutely no reason. I've had some excellent conversations after I've been PKed or PKed someone and enjoyed it, the thing that annoys me the most is people who are out for a revenge as soon as they unghost because to be honest why would you throw yourself at someone right away after they just tooled you unless either A) You're childish beyond imagination and can't stand taking a death from someone because you weren't prepared or It was your characters RP to lash out at their opponent for being killed after their God brings them back to life in which case a suggestion I made a few months ago about random amount of lives could be placed on both sets of people so they don't have a set 60 amount of times to come back and do it. If you can't RP you wont get very far in life in the game, you may get rewarded with a few minor things such as an owner only weapon or maybe a dragon for your description but you usually don't get very much other than that. Imms don't always reward pure PK and usually do require some RP to go forward either in their Cabal or whatever else. I see more custom titles lately than I have ever before so I'd assume that people are RPing more than in the past or at least openly RPing. There are some people who take RP to the very least of their abilities and try going for the maximum PK benefit they can as has been evidence in the past. There are some people who genuinely have unique RP though that will get them to their goal far faster than any other person who is focused purely on PK. I've seen evidence of it all recently and believe that RP anymore is the real benefactor. Though you can find an ends means to getting what you want in PK just expect it to be far slower than going the RP route. Unique RP is what will get you there fastest though I think.

[Icor]

So what's the best solution? Reward splendid RPers more often, or actually give them more stuff?

I think that if every player that RPs pretty well gets a smaller reward, then there'd be a lot of players with rewards. But if the fewer (and the better) RPers got BIGGER rewards, then they'd stand out and be more of... like, people that inspire others to be like them (I think Clerity eluded to this).

As always, it's up to the imm judging.

[goldbond]

i don't agree with Celerity's solutions. and honestly i don't see a huge endemic problem with the MUD regarding PK over RP.

while the PK is intense and usually my pinnacles don't last long due to me not being very good at it, i always roll classic alignment fodder for some reason. never a "go along to get along" character for RP.

calling for more IMM involvement, as always, is not the best solution and often a more potential problem than the problem that already supposedly existed. think of it as more Federal Government intervention in your life. gotta raise taxes to make sure everyone is taken care of. in the MUD, this translates into IMMs giving more mandates and punishments for behavior that really was legal, if overdone. usually the "free market" of the MUD takes care of problems on their own as best as possible.

honestly whoever is the de facto IMP, be it Eshaine or whoever it is, does just fine by not intervening as much as he/she could be doing. this usually only leads to an environment of restriction and paranoia among players as to incorrect behavior.

players themselves from what i've seen are taking responsibility for themselves and players who make a point of pushing things usually end up getting the shaft at the hands of the others.

[Hegemon]

The cause is simple. You've invested, as a Pbase, too much time into throwaway characters. Be it to learn the lands, class, cabal, race, or align, the pbase as a whole suffers from an identity crisis. That Elf Paladin plays an awful lot like your Human DK, doesn't he (or she)?

And that has to do with the fact it's easier to RP yourself playing a game playing a character than it is to RP the Character. It's much, much...I don't want to say easier but it is, easier and better to invest in a single character, and let everything be coloured by the focus of a single lense. One of the cardinal rules is no advanced knowledge and that's broken every day. Upstarts who know everything, aren't afraid to die, and who's only goal is to take down as many Johnny B@d@$$es as they can, and you wonder where RP has gone?

For shame, I say. The Lucky Baseball Glove, or Hockey Stick, is favoured not because of it's mystical power, though that is created by the mystique, but by the fact it is unique and interesting to us.

[Celerity]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....I had a huge post finished, but my computer just randomly shut off. Here we go again....

1. How do you define RP?

I separate RP into two things:

Active RP: actions and other commands that portray your char IC, without using the coded combat system. For example, descriptions, applications, says, emotes, notes, and things of this nature. I am making a distinction with the combat system because that is already defined as PK.

Passive RP: All of the hidden thoughts, ideology, and everything else that you as the player define your char to be. This is usually things like background and anything else that is not actively RPed.

2. Most RP is never noticed. That's the nature of the beast.

Most RP is not noticed because there is no avenue for it be noticed. IMMs can't read your mind, so they assume you are passively RPing your char.

Active RP is of course noticed when it requires IMM approval (such as desc/apps) but is also occasionally noticed randomly.

Most RP now is passive, so of course most RP is not noticed. Most active RP is noticed in one form or another (either by an imm or by another char).

3. But you can make characters that get noticed. If you want noticed' date=' that's what you have to do. Any one remember Karmen?[/quote']

Yes, you CAN make an RP char that prospers. I CAN also make a PK char as a h-elf and prosper. Does that mean h-elf warriors are balanced in PK? Not necessarily. It takes considerably more effort to prosper as an RP char than as a PK char.

If you're playing for rewards' date=' you are still young and idealistic. Most of us play because we're addicts. [/quote']

We all play for some kind of reward. We are addicted to muds and games, not just FL. If we lose our motivation here, we can go play something else.

I've ALWAYS encouraged rp. I don't give out qclasses' date=' I don't give out titles and I don't give out promotions beyond T if I think the char is lacking in its rp aspect.[/quote']

Yes, and I think you are one of the better IMMs in this regard. Of course if the character is completely lacking in RP, they won't get rewarded (this isn't a 0% RP mud). If they give some basic, minimal effort (10%), they can achieve almost all of the same rewards (with about the same speed) as someone who dedicates 90% of their char to RP (which means they may even sacrifice some PK ability to do so...). This is why I say it is a 90% PK 10% RP mud. We achieve a minimal level of passable RP that let's us get the all the RP rewards, then we concentrate the rest on PK so we can get those rewards also.

I've had numerous ooc talks with certain very good pkers to get them to also build up a rp side to their chars.

How did they ever get into a position of good PK if they had very weak RP? How did they get caballed and so on? You are willing to invest your time in bettering the RP of a good PKer...which is giving the PK chars even more attention and even more perks. This only fuels that good PK gets more perks. Don't worry if your RP is weak, that can come after you achieved a good level of PK, from personal IMM tutoring . (I do feel that helping them is a good thing though…please don't get me wrong!)

I've even had a Watcher ELDER who couldn't pk for...but who's rp was superb.

This also goes to show that even you think this is the exception, not the standard in giving out the Elder position. I'm willing to wager that almost every Elder (outside of Herald) has been in the upper tiers of PK supported by a mediocre+ level of RP. If you achieve that 10% RP threshold, you can get eldered. The reverse definitely isn't true (except in a few, often cited cases).

You want RP? Tired of PK? Start a Yahoo chat group.

This is exactly the problem. RPing in FL is very similar to RPing in a chat room. Outside of our tasty alphabet soup emotes and says, we have little ability to do anything in the game through RP. I don't want to RP in a chat room because anything I RP and create is very limited in its ability to make change on the environment (due to available tools) It is the same in FL.

Most RP-dedicated chars end up being passive, weak, teacher-scholar types. Why? Because that is one of the only avenues we have coded in the game for them...aka Herald. Everyone else tends extremely violent, extremely PK heavy. Why? Because that is the only other option available right now (other cabals, all the classes, and so on).

We typically call the first group "RP" chars and the second group "PK" chars. Of course they are both RP in some sense, but both are very limited in what RP they can actually do. This is why I'm suggesting that we make NEW avenues for chars, ones that are coded into the game and don't necessarily involve being a passive teacher or sociopathic killer (because those are becoming very stale for me...).

PK gets a character attention from the staff. BUT the rewards come from RP.

I disagree...actually I would say that the opposite is more true. We players get initially noticed because of our RP (usually desc/apps). Then we get judged and rewarded based on our PK. For example, look at vamp wannabes. They don't go around PKing until some IMM notices they want to be a vamp. First they send in an application (which states their intention in RP form) and then they are judged based on the following PK and ability to stick to the basic RP. Once they become vamped, usually the RP changes drastically into being more passive, having already gotten the perk.

As the vamp develops, their future status is more and more based on PK than RP...getting caballed, advancing, and so on. Once they have been 'noticed' for their RP (got vamped), good PK begins to translate into good RP, whereas high-level RP gives little benefit over simply continuing their basic RP. Just by existing as a high ranked vamp with good PK, they automatically get the status of good RP. So, their RP becomes more and more passive til the point where they are at the stable 90% PK and 10% RP ratio.

Quality of PK is more easily judged than quality of RP.

Think of it this way.. if we emoted our PK battles, it would be very hard to judge who won based on 'better' emotes, right? Luckily, we have a combat system that enables to more clearly show our PK ability. However, for RP, we only have emotes and says, which is of course very hard to judge. That is why we need some other avenue..aka system..to RP in. Something to flesh out the characters, allow them to DO things, give them an actual reason to continue/live, and so forth.

calling for more IMM involvement' date=' as always, is not the best solution and often a more potential problem than the problem that already supposedly existed. think of it as more Federal Government intervention in your life. gotta raise taxes to make sure everyone is taken care of. in the MUD, this translates into IMMs giving more mandates and punishments for behavior that really was legal, if overdone. usually the "free market" of the MUD takes care of problems on their own as best as possible.[/quote']

Actually, I think we agree with each other. Right now, if we use your analogy, the federal government regulates all RP (IMMs judge and reward). The country's institutions (aka game CODE) regulates the PK. I want to lower the role of the government by increasing the role of the institutions (RPing using the code, not for IMM rewards).

Right now, our 'country' (FL) is like a set of tribes. There is an institution for war (kill the other tribes), but no institution for the free markets (RP). All the tribes know how to do is kill each other. They don't even have economies, much less the stable institutions needed for viable free markets. The government needs to make and regulate things like a currency, banks, police, and so forth. We need to have people who do things other than kill (pkers) and teach (heralds). Unfortunately, FL only has the coded potential for those two types of chars.

If we bring in things like player economies, religions, and so forth..we can break free of our single motivation for RP (Which is IMM rewards as it stands now). With something to do IC outside of killing, people can RP for FUN and because it is genuinely interesting (there is a world of difference between emoting to make something and actually making an object, even if it is only bread).

When the game begins to reward new avenues of RP, we need less IMM involvement (outside of the initial IMM investment). Not only that, but more players will come and stay. More avenues of play means more to do and can accommodate more personalities.

So, to sum up my main point:

FL has only two real avenues for chars: the killer and the scholar. Let's make more avenues for ACTIVE rp outside of says/emotes and enjoy a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH richer game because of it.

..you try thinking and typing this post two times...bye bye 2 hours of my day:( !

[CruelEdict]

Amazing. I believe this has been stated many times, but never as well. I have pointed this out before as well, if I recall correctly and I 100% agree with Celerity. So, let me toss out ideas I have that I think would flesh out FL for its "RP-oriented" community (those who do not want to PK as much or at all while still enjoying the setting of FL, which is why most of us don't just use Yahoo chatrooms, btw).

Ideas to better FL, imho:

Player-run Clans (in addition to IMM run)

Player-run Cabals (in addition to IMM run)

Non-PK Classes (Adventurer, Miner, Alchemist, Blacksmith)

More IMM-enacted RP angles and IMM support for player plots

More heavily defined RP elements (Races, for instance)

Updated Webpage / Wiki

More Staff (coders)

Player-Run Religions (Churches as a new type of faction)

More dynamic settings / elimination of stock areas (which needs more staff to execute)

Those are my ideas and they are lofty, I am sure. They take tons of coding, but would result in a much, much more RP-oriented gaming experiance for those who wanted it. All of those ideas I can flesh out, because I swear I have suggested them at least once or twice over the years (except the Wiki, which is a brilliant new idea!).

Anyhow, Celerity is 100% right and I am glad she posted her thoughts.

[Aulian]

1.Player-run Clans (in addition to IMM run)

Player run clans are not out of contention. Was everyone asleep when Korthian started to take over the lands and become one of the most powerful people through basically RP alone?

I wasnt asleep. I saw it.

If you have a good idea, and a following of people there is absolutely NO REASON why you cannot start your own clan.

2.Player-run Cabals (in addition to IMM run)

Once upon a time, in a land looking much like this one, just a little newer all cabals were player run with a bit of immortal 'watching over' if you can call it that.

You know what happened? OOC rings started joining cabals together. "Hey you and you, let me into this cabal and not this dude. Cummon man you know me OOC we will work well together."

That is an OOC trap looking for a place to happen.

What I WOULD like to see is once players reach a certain rank ie: Elder/Leader then they basically have the run of the cabal within reason. They can decide on inductions and all the rest.

3.Non-PK Classes (Adventurer, Miner, Alchemist, Blacksmith)

An idea - however there would need to restrictions. I dont want some non-pkable person running around with a full set of lvl 60 uniques

4.More IMM-enacted RP angles and IMM support for player plots

We all have lives. Secondly the immortals can only devote so much to building, coding, fixing bugs, help files, answering the forums, catching cheaters, managing cabals, managing clans and everything else they do.

And no the answer is not 'more imms'.

5.More heavily defined RP elements (Races, for instance)

More heavily defined races? Christ how much more defined do you need?

One of the beauties of the mud is that you can CHOOSE your own definition. You can create the person YOU want to be. Rather then slotted into a group.

Thats how people are able to create dark knights that kill everyone, evils intended because they are so religiously fanatic that they believe they are the only ones capable of serving their god.

6.Updated Webpage / Wiki

Recently mentioned idea, another to add to the long list of things imms need to moderate and do.

7.More Staff (coders)

There is 0 stopping you from submitting your own code and having it discussed with the immortals. Nothing.

8.Player-Run Religions (Churches as a new type of faction)

You'll have to elaborate.

9.More dynamic settings / elimination of stock areas (which needs more staff to execute)

Nothing stopping you from building areas. You dont have to be a member of staff to do that and submit it

Reply to Celerity/Idea:

I think one of the main reasons why people who are cabal'd that Pk is because thats what you have to do.

Its not very often you get an outlaw to sit down with a tribunal and have a 'chat'. I can guarentee that if Dumela wanted to chat to Rykar/Isarbulas that would not come around very easily.

Those who join cabals know it is PK intensive. There isnt much opportunity to get involved in RP. Hell I wanted to talk to khranin a whole bunch but I had to keep fighting Byrs all the time.

Basically once you get caballed the availability and your own ability to RP diminishes in a few respects. Dont really have time to just stop and chat to some random, I have things to do in my day.

Perhaps this is an underlying problem? Perhaps not. But it is ceratinly a reason why people who join cabals do not RP more.

And I'd have to say that those people who fill the top level of PK ability most certainly are able to hold their own in an RP enviroment. Sometimes we just aint got the opportunity.

[Celerity]

Its not very often you get an outlaw to sit down with a tribunal and have a 'chat'. I can guarentee that if Dumela wanted to chat to Rykar/Isarbulas that would not come around very easily.

RPing isn't necessarily just sitting down and chatting! My point being, that there is nothing else you can do except run around capturing standards (for no reason other than an IMM told you to...taking their standard doesn't -actually- hurt their cabal) and try to kill each other.

There isn't any serious plotting, public displays, politics, or even in game progress (nobody ever 'wins'). All we have time (and ability) to do is run around and PK. There is no real alternative system (armies, kinda, but who takes them seriously? Maybe we need more investment there..) in the game. If I want to do any of those other things (plotting, etc) it all needs to be done with says and emotes and doesn't do anything to the other char in the game anyways. Also, it can only be done under the condition the other char wants to 'accept' your RP (whereas code-backed PK doesn't need that).

These are the underlying flaws...like I mentioned in my other posts.

If you don't take the crazy killer (cabals) route, you are delegated to passive teacher-type RP (herald or hermit uncaballed). Those are our two basic choices...either only have time to kill people or be a passive, essentially powerless 'RP' char.

What I am proposing is that we add more avenues to the current system, instead of being almost completely limited to those two. Add more things to do as a caballed player instead of simply blindly killing. Add direction and events to the game so that we feel like we are actually doing something. As it stands, we know Knight will never beat Nexus, or that Nexus will never burn the cities down (and if something does happen like this, in the handful of cases it has, it is always short-term as part of an imm-directed plot)

Don't confuse my argument with Cruel-Edict's...I am not proposing player-run anything. I'm proposing code-run things. For example, imagine if players could choose when to level up. Huge abuse. Imagine if IMMs had to choose when players levelled up...huge abuse AND unnecessary work...so we let the code choose. Things you can actually do in the game that are fun, interesting, AND have an affect on other players. (outside of chatroom socials/tells)

Also...why isn't the answer "more imms"? Quantity + Quality = productivity...

[CruelEdict]

Tangent Time: Not related to Celerity's viewpoint, but still near on-topic

Player-run Clans:

One real instance? In a game whose history has spanned what? 6 years? I tried ages back when the game was at its peak and it was nigh impossible. It shouldn't be easy, but it just doesn't exist at all. Trader incarnations aside, we haven't had anything really.

Player-run Cabals:

We can find a happy medium. I know I enjoyed the player-run set-up in its early days. I wasn't around to see much of the abuses, but I can imagine they were awful. That doesn't mean we should remove the build-a-cabal aspect and perhaps even allow them to choose hierarchy set-ups, etc.

Non-PK Classes:

They can't go beyond Rank 30, cannot hold Rares (but can sell them via a barter/sales set-up that could utilize in-game shops and trading bulletin board, perhaps). At the minimum, Blacksmiths and Alchemists would be great for this (Miners might get boring).

More IMM-enacted RP angles and IMM support for player plots:

More Imms. Bottom line. We need more people to produce more and it will take the load off the current Imms a bit. A lot of low-level Imms wouldn't hurt, imo, to do half those menial tasks you named. Let the Coders code, the builders build, and the other Imms do what they need to do. More is better in that regard.

More heavily defined RP elements (Races, for instance):

This is in regards to standardization of "Aabahran"-style stuff. A Drow is a Drow is a Drow, with alterations only to their personal RP and whatnot. As is, I think we lack definition in the races, so a majority of the time it seems like people play Humans with different stats. That is what I am trying to get at.

Updated Webpage / Wiki:

Easily managed by players with a single Imm able to overlook any rule-breaking.

More Staff (coders):

Right, but not everyone knows how and we should look for those who do to keep the MUD dynamic.

Player-Run Religions (Churches as a new type of faction):

This is a pet idea of mine. We have so many religions, but most are ill-defined and generalized. A few people do it well, but I would love to see "Churches" and "Cults" that would be run by Imms (wizinvis if need be to go with NPC deities). These could be cabals, but not involved in CtF, but could be involved in Army warfare and would have its own flags and hierarchy. I have more to it, but I don't want to clog this up too much.

More dynamic settings / elimination of stock areas (which needs more staff to execute):

And who will implement them? Who will RP the new area's intro into the realm? I have a great plot for eliminating a stock area, but I can't enact it because I feel no one would ever listen to the char unless I was a PK machine (especially considering the race/class).

Just my thoughts.

--snip--

[Aulian]

Wtf does that last quote mean? Lol

[CruelEdict]

It just means I cut your stuff out to save room, but still indicate I was responding to you.

Wtf does that last quote mean? Lol

[Izlimak]

I feel as though this was a very well thought out and respectful original post; and therefore, the least I can do is reply in kind.

It is true, that good PK is more immediately recognized than solid RP, I would flat out be a liar to deny it. IMMs have access to all players' stats, which include AC, hitroll/damroll, which skills are mastered, as well as an overall PK record listing the number of players killed, player deaths, and mob deaths. With the help of these stats, an IMM can quickly and easily know a character's entire PK history, and whether the player is PK competent or lackluster. These measures are used because quite simply - and this isn't some kind of huge secret - IMMs cannot be present to inspect players 24 hours of the day.

As far as RP goes, there is no realistic way for IMMs to measure this on an overall level (if you would be willing to propose one, I would be really happy to consider it). The fact of the matter is, IMMs can only get a 'snapshot' of a character's RP, every once in a while. This can be done in two ways: to directly interact with a character and see what RP a player has to offer towards an IMM, or to snoop while hidden and see how a character would otherwise RP, because quite simply, many many characters will only ever offer meaningful RP when they know they're being monitored by an IMM. But like I said, in either case, all I can see as an IMM is a momentary snapshot. I have no way of knowing what a character will do while I'm not there unless another IMM tells me.

As far as the 90% PK and 10% RP thing goes, this is a misconception. It has always been, and will forever remain 50/50. You talked about there being an assumption on the part of IMMs that good PK = good RP, and that will be blindly reward people for their good PK. Unfortunately, this is an equal assumption on your part. Rewards such as titles, qraces/qclasses, and high cabal standing are given to characters that we feel deliver the total package, in both PK and RP. However, like I said about our sometimes limited field of view regarding the consistency of a character's RP, we can sometimes err in judgement. This does not mean that we care more about one than the other, or give out rewards based on PK more than RP. You talked about vampire wannabes that only give out solid RP during the consideration period, but once they get it, they go into silent PK mode. I encourage, I even beg for players to let the IMMs know if this happens. I want to assure everyone that if players think that once they get vampired, undeaded, demoned, caballed, etc... that they can then take an RP vacation, that these people are wrong and will meet very stiff consequences, the least of which will be a removal of the afformentioned reward.

Now, there is something that I want to bring up, and it might be unpopular with many people. I keep reading ideas of non-PK classes like miners and whatever else, as well as slight complaints by members of Herald, or on behalf of them. To these people, I want to return to the 50/50 argument I made above. This is a PK AND RP MUD, and by this very definition there is no more reason to introduce non-PK classes than there is to allow silent-PKers to roam the lands. PK, as well as RP, should not come with an on/off switch. Like Myrek said, if you just want to RP and want to avoid all PK, you might want to consider an alternate hobby. This is the way that things have always been here on FL, so I'm curious to know why these complaints are being made now. In fact, since the beginnings of FL, a non-PK adventurer class was introduced (which I think goes against the very foundations and ideals of this MUD, but that's another argument for another day), so obviously we have been slightly willing to bend the definitions of our MUD in favour of you players that wanted it.

Now, I am not closed-minded. I know that there are many things that can be greatly worked on. IMM interaction is a must, in my opinion, and I would truly like to see this happen much more frequently. Since my return recently, I have tried very hard to interact with many among you, and I hope that, with the aid of my fellow IMMstaff, these interactions will pay devidends. I will soon be fully immersed in the building aspect of things, so look out for new exciting IMM plots as new areas/replacements will soon be phased in. I understand very much where many people in this thread are coming from, but I would have to argue that much of what is being said is based off of misconceptions and assumptions. All I am trying to do here is offer another side of the story.

[Tantangel]

Player-run Clans (in addition to IMM run)

Player-run Cabals (in addition to IMM run)

Non-PK Classes (Adventurer, Miner, Alchemist, Blacksmith)

More IMM-enacted RP angles and IMM support for player plots

More heavily defined RP elements (Races, for instance)

Updated Webpage / Wiki

More Staff (coders)

Player-Run Religions (Churches as a new type of faction)

More dynamic settings / elimination of stock areas (which needs more staff to execute)

Player-run Clans

This is how Hourglass was started. Started off for Savant to hire people to feed us information about the whereabouts of others as well as helping us out in our own way. It eventually became the Clan in which Imms could choose who to allow into the Cabal. If we removed clans in general and made it like 1.0 where you had to apply to a Cabal without Imms knowing you wanted to go join any specific Cabal then yeah I could see more player run clans working. Otherwise you can only be a member of one clan and if you go the 'hermit' route and make your own clan you can't really join a Cabal unless an Imm knows you're planning on joining.

Player-run Cabals

Don't see this happening unless it's like Gimp or something because a lot of people I wouldn't trust. I think more now than ever though the Cabals are becoming closer and closer to that 'player-run' though because you do have Cabals where Imms will allow you to say who you'd like to join up and whatever else and I know Knight for a long while there I was writing about who I thought should be inducted and whatever else and in the past even in player run Cabals that wouldn't happen ever because you still had people you never even knew wanted to join trying to join. Now you know though what their intentions are and what they want to do and I think with these intentions people are more likely to grab up their OOC buddies to try and induct them and it's much easier now with the ability to reveal who you play via forum now.

Non-PK Classes

Crypticant had all of them the one time and they couldn't have rares/uniques so that wasn't ever a problem. They also couldn't die so running into a room with aggro MOBs was a problem since you couldn't die or do anything since it would just keep stunning you. Think it was fixed not sure though but the idea is nice and all but it would get boring far too quickly. To be honest I think the thrill of RP is that you have the thrill and chance of also getting PKed. You could just as easily make Healers a nonPK class and remove their option of using rares/uniques and have a go at it from there but I think a LOT of people would roll up Healers then until they realized they wouldn't be able to join any Cabal other than Herald as well.

More Imm enacted RP plots

They already have a TON of responsibility as is I think, more so now than before. Back in the day Viri was able to code and Crypticant could build like no other which allowed other Imms to basically pay more attention to what happened in the game. When it was passed down to Arzaeth he could code and everyone else was building but they could still pay attention to who was on. Now Imms all are having responsibilities to do this and that aside from just watch the players and players themselves have more of an active role now more so than ever. Those RP plots happen still just not as widescaled all the time. People remember plots like the Shades and Theran Wind and however else because they were plots not requiring an Imm on at all times. Now more than ever Imms interact with individuals on a more personal level than ever before. Would you rather have wide scaled RP that doesn't necessarily involve just you or your group?

More Heavily Difined RP Elements

You have the option of restrings for different races you can even apply for stat changes and whatever else you want to add to it within bounds. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing that. This is in the hands of the Players not just Immortals.

Updated Webpage/Wiki

Can't say much for the webpage but as for the Wiki I've been messing around on one and have been trying to figure it out in part of my free time. Once I get it all figured out I'll see what the Imms think about it and if they like it I'll post it.

More Staff

The problem with this is finding people they can trust to give the opportunity to. Yeah everyone wants to be Imm and everyone thinks they'd be good at it but the fact of the matter is that it takes a very mature individual to do something like this without it going to their head. It's not like they can just randomly pluck people up and say hey, you're the new Imm don't **** it up. They'll go off reputation and whatever else. Aside from that nothing prevents you from turning in your own portion of code to have them decide whether it has a place in FL or not or build your own area. I'm trying to figure a way out on the whole Undead Mount thing myself but with working now I got like 5 minutes to work on it and am half done.

[mya]

Celerity can you please give some examples of the code you wish ?

Practical examples.

['tarako]

'In response to the nonpk/rp-oriented classes, what if at character creation you could choose a sub class to your actual class and get 2-5 skills in it. They would take the same amount of practices to learn, and you get better over time, ect. Hence you could be a human warrior:black smith and it could give you one skill every ten levels starting at zero. Like start with just the skill blacksmith which gives you a discount at blacksmith shops because you can tell the quality of an item. Then rank ten get a skill like armor smith which would let you improve the ac of a piece of armor, just once mind you not stacked like the invokers spell. rank 20 weapon smith improve the hit or dam of a weapon. rank 30 maybe a journeyman blacksmith, your weapons and armor that you improve have a +1 or something versus being destroyed. then rank 40 master blacksmith, +3 or something versus being destroyed plus you can add your name to your weapons and armor. Like Tarako's titanium bracer, ect.

'Or have it be selectable after character creation by going to a shop keeper and apprenticing to him and having to go there to learn the skills, like a second guild leader. I have no idea how hard this would be to code, im not taking a c++ coding class until first semester of next year or else i would submit it.

'For more examples of subclasses you could have baker. which could give skills of cheaper food prices, rank ten make food while in a city, like the create food spell, rank 20 the food you make takes less to fill a person, rank 30 journeyman baker resist poison is an added benefit of your food, rank 40 master baker bless or something else given to the food as well as your name. i.e. Tarako's deep-fried duck, ect.

'This is the last one now as im just covering the ideas given, miner. starting off you get discounts off of metal objects in stores, ie jewlery armor weapons because you know the true value of metal. rank ten be able to mine areas such as mountains, fields, whatever is deemed mineable and have a percent of finding scrap metal or gold. rank 20 be able to make better mining tools from scrap metal. Rank 30 journeyman miner, maybe resist toxins because of mining and +1 to mining tools. rank 40 master miner, +3 to mining tools and you name on them, ie Tarako's mining pick, and the ability to refine scrap metal for a higher selling price.

'As previously stated I dont know how hard this is to code but i dont think its overpowered and there can be many more subclasses.

[Aulian]

I wouldnt say overpowered.. As long as naming your eq doesnt = a signature on it or give me a blacksmith any day

['tarako]

'Also i didnt know whether to edit or make a new post so i decided to make a new post. For those rp wannabes think of the combos. A drow dk that likes to secretly bake. or a faerie invoker blacksmith. or a storm zerk miner. it would give the game a whole new dimension and really add to peoples ability to rp.

[Aeva]

A drow dk that likes to secretly bake.

lololololololol

[Mister E]

Lots of interesting points.

Bottom line I think is that FL needs more active Imms. Just an immortal seen on who improves the quality of the game IMO. Just like Izlimak said, people tend to put out their best rp and even pk when they think an Imm might be watching. If there is say 1:4 representation of Imms to Morts at any given time that might just scare the pbase into playing their best

I also think all the stock areas need to be changed. This requires the cooperation of the pbase as well as the support of the Immstaff. Since the thread started a while back by Malchaeius we have seen one new area (to my knowledge). Why dont we encourage this more? Right after that thread started I emailed in my own idea for an area, the rp behind it, what it could replace, etc...Now my idea might have sucked, but the thing is I never got any feedback whatsoever. Not even an email saying "look, this idea is not for FL, but thats for trying, we are looking more for " I hold no malice whatsoever but I think this example illustrates that the Immstaff is understaffed and possibly overworked.

[Izlimak]

Lots of interesting points.

Bottom line I think is that FL needs more active Imms. Just an immortal seen on who improves the quality of the game IMO. Just like Izlimak said, people tend to put out their best rp and even pk when they think an Imm might be watching. If there is say 1:4 representation of Imms to Morts at any given time that might just scare the pbase into playing their best

In an ideal world, this would be awesome. But it is a sad truth that many people won't bother to put out great RP unless they feel as though there's a short-term reward. Again, like I said before, if anyone has any ideas here I would gladly field them.

I also think all the stock areas need to be changed. This requires the cooperation of the pbase as well as the support of the Immstaff. Since the thread started a while back by Malchaeius we have seen one new area (to my knowledge). Why dont we encourage this more? Right after that thread started I emailed in my own idea for an area' date=' the rp behind it, what it could replace, etc...Now my idea might have sucked, but the thing is I never got any feedback whatsoever. Not even an email saying "look, this idea is not for FL, but thats for trying, we are looking more for " I hold no malice whatsoever but I think this example illustrates that the Immstaff is understaffed and possibly overworked.[/quote']

I'm going to be working on this very soon. Expect to see significant progress in this regard in the near future. The reality here is that the size of the immstaff relative to the current number of players fits. I mean, sure, we can hire double the number of imms that we have now, but there goes another 6-8 players. With the amount of stuff that I, as well as any other member of the immstaff, have on my plate here, there's realistically no way to fully dedicate time to morts.... Unless your name is Zrothum. Maybe we should hire him.

[Mister E]

I'll take your word for it Mak. But seems to me we dont even have an Imm for each cabal. I guess some of you are pinch hitting?

Anyway, I am glad to hear some changes are on the horizon. Keep it up!

[Izlimak]

Kinda bad timing about the cabal thing. I came in to fill Knight, but as that happened, Roy leaves Watcher stranded. What an inconsiderate butthole.

[The Wayward Knight]

To play mild devil's advocate to Celerity and toot my own horn in the same post (what a lie, right? It's totally the second one.) I can't pk for **** and I've had three Knight Praetorian Elders.