"That's why I kill people": A Retiree's Thoughts on Counterstrike-RP, FL, and more

[Mali]

This thread is the best thing to happen to FL in a long time.

That must be a joke. The best things that happen to FL happen in the game, not on the forums.

Less posting and more playing would do the FL world alot of good. With that, I'll take my own advice and go PK/RP somebody

[Valsgarde]

It is not a joke, and that is not neccessarily true at all. A lot of things need change, and the discussion about said things, brainstorming, etc, goes on here.

Yeah, playing with toys on Christmas is fun, but if it weren't for Santa and the elves at the North Pole, you wouldn't get any toys in the first place.

[Mali]

I celebrate hanukkah

[KRins]

well...without the clay no dredel (forgive my misspelling if it is wrong, I'm not hating on the Jewish faith at all as half my family are practicing Jews.)

[smallman]

Ah' date=' my mistake KRins... you simply want people to be assured a basic set after deaths.[/quote']

I think he means whatever they were wearing at time of death, minus rare items. I'm for it. Heck, if that's too easy, make it so non-rare items can only respawn with you a certain number of times before they're worn out and destroyed. Rares, of course, would be removed from inventory after the first death.

I figured lockers took care of that' date=' but... *shrugs*[/quote']

Lockers are useful as an extended inventory, for storing things you don't want to carry around. Whether that's a fresh set of eq or not doesn't matter. It would not make lockers obsolete, and to be honest collecting and hoarding eq in a locker so you have something to wear next time you die is boring.

This is just brainstorming the details for the solution to a bigger problem, of course. If anything comes out of this it'll likely be an end to hard-coded vendettas, and then the need to hoard armor will diminish.

(Flame on! Call me a sissy who wants the game to stop being hrrrdcore.)

[Pali]

If all that comes out of this is an end to hardcoded vendettas, I'll be VERY happy. I hate that being a caballed char stagnates RP so much... it's part of why I refuse to join a cabal with my current char.

[Grumpy]

I think he means whatever they were wearing at time of death, minus rare items. I'm for it.

Yeah I think this is a great idea. People won't be totally screwed when they die. At least they will still have their backpacks which will carry a suit of extra non-rare equipment.

[Pali]

...there ARE a lot of times where I would rather lose my eq than my backpack... pre-50, anyways...

[smallman]

Yeah I think this is a great idea. People won't be totally screwed when they die. At least they will still have their backpacks which will carry a suit of extra non-rare equipment.

...I mean people would keep everything but the rare items. In order to circulate them, you see.

As long as I'm adding another post: I think the idea of removing some incentives from PK is a good one. If the never-ending quest for items/gold/vendettas no longer motivated PK, I think people would put more thought into why they're actually attacking someone.

[Aulian]

There sure is alot of negativity in this thread. I'm just happy the mud is still up and running.

Amen.

[The Wayward Knight]

There sure is a lot of **** on my boots, but I'm happy I still have them on, and since I'm so thankful I won't bother to try and clean them.

[Raargant]

My aspirations, and I think I am correct in saying the aspirations of Malchaeius, is a bit more than simply keeping the MUD running. I know that it killed Iru that the MUD wasn't growing, and I don't think either Malchaeius, me, or any of the IMM-staff want to look back at this point two years from now, and realize that the MUD is still fundamentally the same, the players are still fundamentally the same people, and the pbase hasn't increased in size substantially, if at all.

Because, honestly, looking back to 2006 from the perspective of 2008, that's how it seems. And it doesn't feel so good, for me at least.

[Anume]

Just because you do not get a "We punished blabla or we talked to blabla" as a reply does not mean we do not look into things when something is reported.

Usually you will not be told if nor how they were punished / reprimanded.

As to changes/ bug killing, you will see soon.

[Malchaeius]

I love Eshaine, I love Valganti, I liked Roykagh but I have to say that I don't agree with Malchaeius OR Chayesh. This is not meant to be offensive, but it is my opinion and I don't think it should be held back. The simple fact is, the MUD is a single person. Because in the end, one person makes the decision. He has the power to, or not to. Personal issues aside, you took over the seat when Irumeru basically abandoned us. You basically did the same thing, as much as I hate to say it.

You had the power too promote eshaine (or someone else) and tell her hey, I am in some RL trouble I need you to take over while I am gone. But it didn't happen, for the very reason that there are not many IMM's, power. It's not your fault, it is human nature to do so. To promote someone is too open yourself and no one likes to do that, but it's the job. You have a group that depends on you and, IMO, you failed. There have been little to no changes over the past year, hundreds of problems needing fixed have not been. Code is bugged to high heaven in places and for whatever reason, it has not been fixed. You have the right mind set, but don't follow through.

You are talking out of your a**. You have no idea what I did or did not authorize anyone to do. What was or was not given to Eshaine. I will leave it at that.

We are straying from the intentions of Raargant's original post with zoo monkey behavior - sh*t-slinging and finger-pointing. Unless I am wrong (and Raargant, please correct me if I am) the purpose was not to be RETROactive but PROactive. It was not to play the blame game.

As for updates, I would love to give them, but I have seen people crucify Virigoth, Crypticant, Arzaeth, and Irumeru when they gave updates about what they were working on and inevitably did not produce in time. So please excuse me if I am a little... hesitant. Let us just say that I will pull the George W. Bush card and not give you a time-table that I may or may not be able to keep. However, you guys do have the right to know something. In lieu of that:

There are approximately 29 code changes/fixes coming in the near future. That is, they have already been made on test port, and they are working, but they are simply awaiting a few more to complete the set.

[Celerity]

Well, here we are, drowning in a pool of alphabet soup. Both Raar and Malch are pointing out that there are some problems, but neither have laid out their solutions yet.

I see this post almost as a direct revival of a post I made a bit ago, about PK vs RP.

If RP is not demonstrable, then it might as well not exist, because it brings nothing, RP-wise, to the MUD.

For me, this is the key point. If it is not demonstrable, it must be passive RP. Active RP is shown through emotes and so on. Now, this may appear to be a problem on the player-side, but I would like to lay it on the side of the administrators. Using Malch's quote:

We as a community have to step up our actions.

Yes, that sounds nice and all. So why don't people do it? There is nowhere for the players to step. This MUD has a background, bios, descriptions, races, classes, and everything else suited for promoting passive ("CS-RP"), but where are the tools for active RP? Let's list what we have:

Channels

Emotes

Socials

...

That's it. Everything else in the game is there to support the PK side of things. Players have no tools, no benefits, and thus absolutely no motivation to actively RP. May as well be in a chatroom then. There are no "RP" systems/tasks/ or even skills to use. As much fun as emoting is, we all know that your character doesn't REALLY do anything when they emote. When you PK, you have a code-supported reaction and benefit. When you emote/talk, nothing really happens (UNLESS you make a friend for PK benefit ). That is why so few people will actively RP. They are in the clouds so to speak, with no firm place in the MUD.

Thus, I believe the problem is mostly with the MUD (more specifically the code = admins), for not providing us with these tools, and not the players.

Which brings me into the nice reiteration of my previous words:

The MUD should be interesting because of its depth and richness, not because of a blank question mark.

While this is usually thought in terms of PK (hiding eq flags, cabal skills), it can also be thought of in terms of RP. What does almost all "RP" focus around in the game? Cabals and qrace\class applicants. I believe we've established that cabals are almost entirely PK-oriented, so why does RP revolve around them? Because it they are the only systems that are in place for players to aspire to. When we make a new character, we are thrust into a "blank question mark" world. The backstory is there, but we are supposed to forge our character's future by ourselves (minimal interfence from IMMs, right?). Yet, again, what tools are available to do that? Yes, cabals and qraces. Those are the only real things that our characters can aspire to do and our entire character development and design is based on entering a cabal, etc. Outside of joining a cabal, there is very, very little for a character to do. Channels, emotes, and socials. For the same reasons as above, this is not the fault of the players. There is no next 'step' available for players to rise and affect the world around them.

The issue that comes into play for the staff is policing these things effectively. As you know from being a staff member, we try to minimize interference in "mortal affairs" unless it is during Roleplay or during punishment. Therefore, the best polices are those that are tailored for, as you referred to it so wonderfully, nurturing. Too much 'interference' from the staff takes away from the player to player immersion of the game. That is to say, if we are constantly bringing people up to ask them about their reasons for killing someone else, we are interrupting their gameplay. Hence, a policy that requires the staff to patrol every single interaction/kill of a player - while some may consider it ideal - is impractical at best and harmful at worst. At the same time, a policy that allows and even encourages silent killers is at best detrimental. We need a middle ground. It appears the policy of only talking to people who make it a habit is not working if it is a collective mindset – to be exact, one player may get killed by three different people who exhibit the same ‘silent-killer roleplay’, and therefore we will not get the report about one person specifically making a habit of it.

This whole paragraph by Malch proves to me that he is still in the mindset of being "the policeman". Is the primary job of the administration to "enforce the laws" or to provide avenues for player development? The code is perfectly capable of being the 'policeman' in most cases.

Let's look at two examples.

First about restrings. IMMs need to monitor restrings to match weight/height standards and to avoid bizarre combinations, right? Not at all. Give each race a range for their weight and height (which should be there anyways...I am still not sure exactly how tall a giant is). Now, instead of players making their own restrings, they could choose from a (comprehensive) list, that fits their base race. Players could even contribute to the list. For your rock monster example, it could look like this:

Height: 2.5 - 3.5m

Weight: 200kg - 300kg

So, any race that fit those standards could be a rock monster. Yes, this means that you have to provide a lot of restring height/weights. If the restring is not available yet, the player could submit a possible name and height/weight and wait for approval. Once approved, anyone could be that restring. This system would take minimal coding effort and save a lot of time for both players (no apps) and imms (less checking). You could have things like angels/demons/etc put on the deny list, just like names. I think the possibilty for abuse here is actually less than it is for names, since names have no approval required. How many crazy names do we really get?

Next, about non-standard combinations.

Players need to submit apps and get approval/pk skills denied because of balance reasons, right? Nope, not needed at all.

Neutral clerics? Disalllow neutral communing for neutral cleric, evil paladins and so on. Samaet haymakering? Already covered in the code of haymaker (based on size/dex/str). The IMM's role isn't to DENY the players things, but to make it balanced. A faerie should be able to TRY to haymaker. Why not? What is stopping him? Divine power? Just make sure the code of haymaker reflects that a faerie wouldn't be able hit it often (and since when did we base this game on realism?) An ogre should be able to try to hide and steal, but they would have a very high failure rate.

A fire giant mage? Why not? Fire giants in cabals can cast spells. Just reflect their poor skill in it in the lose concentration/mana rate. Sure, a fire giant mage might suck, but why DENY the player the opprotunity? If a non-standard combination seems overpowered, tweak it. The game should be balanced because the skills/races/classes are balanced and accurate, not because of special IMM-rules.

A perfect example is Samaet, Deykari's faerie berserker, who I personally approved. The only things that were removed from the character (if I remember correctly) were things that simply did not make sense due to the diminutive size of the character (A faerie haymakering a giant? eh... no).

If you are looking for a non-standard combination for PK prowess, then yes - you are in it for the wrong reason.

Now for this quote:

Fire giants having deep philosophical conversations.

I believe this is directed at me, due to Iru's terribly mis-guided post.

How much does one intelligence point mean in the game? We have no idea, because it was never openly defined. For all we know, average intelligence could be 8, making our fire giants hero-like in intelligence. It could be 20. Who knows? What is the difference between 15 and 20? Fire giants have the philosophical roots to be clerics. They can cast spells in cabals. Again, if it isn't defined, why is it limited? Needless IMM "policing".

When is it 'hoarding' and when is it 'rewarding'? When is it 'stinginess' and when is it 'responsibility'?

Again, let the code hand out the presents. The job isn't to be the gatekeeper, which does both hoarding and rewarding. Imms should be perfecting the system so that problems (bugs) do not occur and that it runs without a lot interference.

Take Halloween madness for example, two years ago, it was missed and players complained. This year, it was put on, and players complained. After you do this for a while, you get a feeling that players will always complain.

A good example. People were angry because they expected it and it was denied. Last year, it was given but the IMPs failed to return the game to its previous state in a timely matter. If you botch things, of course people will complain. Does that mean you shouldn't try to do things? No, of course not. Just do them well!

I am someone who loves compromise, but most of the time, I get a sense that people are not unified.

You answered your own feeling there. If you compromise, person 1 wants A, person 2 wants C, so you give them B. Neither party is happy and there is no unification. The key isn't in compromise but in transcendence. Find the best answer and there will be natural unification. If A is best, give A. If C is best, give C. If X is best, give X. Don't give people just what they want. Especially when you don't give what was wanted in the first place!

Well, I have to teach now, so maybe more later! Sorry, I didn't have a chance to check for typos, etc!

[Aulian]

All I can say is that Old man was pretty damn on the button.

[The Forsaken]

I believe this is directed at me, due to Iru's terribly mis-guided post.

How much does one intelligence point mean in the game? We have no idea, because it was never openly defined. For all we know, average intelligence could be 8, making our fire giants hero-like in intelligence. It could be 20. Who knows? What is the difference between 15 and 20? Fire giants have the philosophical roots to be clerics. They can cast spells in cabals. Again, if it isn't defined, why is it limited? Needless IMM "policing".

Sorry, but fire giants have the 'theological' roots to be clerics, not the 'philosophical' roots. I agree with Irum's post about wisdom/intel and mudding. It doesn't take a very bright person to have faith in a deity. Especially when the results are so readily seen, i.e. sanctuary, bless, all those little spells that clerics 'pray' for. In FL, the God you pray to directly rewards you whenever you ask for it. Even a fire giant with a 15 int can pray 'Hey, gimmie some protections'. In this retrospect, ogres could be clerics as well. Though healers and shamans would be pushing it, since they are a more elite sect of priests. However, mages? Fire giants don't 'cast' cabal spells, they still 'commune' them. Sure, RP a fire giant mage, and if it is given to you, then RP trumps all, right? Then what happens to the feral that is one shotted by your fireball? PK balance has to be kept, and that is why I think the rare non-base combos are nerfed.

[The Forsaken]

Yes, that sounds nice and all. So why don't people do it? There is nowhere for the players to step. This MUD has a background, bios, descriptions, races, classes, and everything else suited for promoting passive ("CS-RP"), but where are the tools for active RP? Let's list what we have:

Channels

Emotes

Socials

...

That's it. Everything else in the game is there to support the PK side of things. Players have no tools, no benefits, and thus absolutely no motivation to actively RP. May as well be in a chatroom then. There are no "RP" systems/tasks/ or even skills to use. As much fun as emoting is, we all know that your character doesn't REALLY do anything when they emote. When you PK, you have a code-supported reaction and benefit. When you emote/talk, nothing really happens (UNLESS you make a friend for PK benefit ). That is why so few people will actively RP. They are in the clouds so to speak, with no firm place in the MUD.

I'll agree on the 'RP' systems and tasks, aside those given by IMMs. But skills? The game is full of RP skills. The Bard class alone has many. But they aren't used. When's the last time you say a bard singing? Not as in one of the songs that actually have effects on the player, but freelance singing? It's possible, but just not done. Even Cabals have RP skills, and no I'm not talking about Herald. I know there are other gains to raiding, but I think that is a very viable RP skill. Nexus has an excellent oppertunity for RP skills, but it's used more as PK. Is it the fault of IMM's that the players are using them for PK instead of RP? Not fully, no. It's us players. With my last nexus, Atsul(a) I used it all the time for RP. Of course I used it for PK as well, but the RP aspects of it are so tempting.

So just because the RP skills aren't being used, does not mean they aren't there.

[Celerity]

Sorry' date=' but fire giants have the 'theological' roots to be clerics, not the 'philosophical' roots. [/quote']

Theology is just philosophy about religion.

It doesn't take a very bright person to have faith in a deity. Especially when the results are so readily seen, i.e. sanctuary, bless, all those little spells that clerics 'pray' for. In FL, the God you pray to directly rewards you whenever you ask for it. Even a fire giant with a 15 int can pray 'Hey, gimmie some protections'.

It doesn't take intelligence, it takes wisdom. That is why communers are based around the WIS stat, not some 'faith' stat. Even a fire giant with a 15 wis has enough wisdom to perform miracles for a god. Does that mean 15 wisdom is supernatural? If so, maybe the average really is 8. If not, why are they able to commune?

Fire giants don't 'cast' cabal spells, they still 'commune' them.

Really? Might want to check that one!

Then what happens to the feral that is one shotted by your fireball?

Probably nothing, because saves kill fire and you are so likely to lose concentration. An elf invoker would be putting out way more damage than a fire giant, even using fire.

PK balance has to be kept

Very true. Code it into the game. The imms shouldn't be in the job of allowing/disallowing things, but in determining the result if you try.

Sure, your fat warrior can try to backstab a halfling, but 9999/10000, she will miss. Your paladin can try to commune to Anume, she just won't answer!

We should be encourging people to be creative, not limiting what they do! To limit things like that is just giving clear preference to PK over RP. They should go hand in hand, right? Anyone can try anything, just like in the real world. Whether or not they will be successful is another matter altogether.

[Celerity]

When's the last time you say a bard singing?

You'll have to point out some RP skills that have an effect on the world/environment. Sing is just a channel, the same as say and emote.

Even Cabals have RP skills, and no I'm not talking about Herald. I know there are other gains to raiding, but I think that is a very viable RP skill. Nexus has an excellent oppertunity for RP skills, but it's used more as PK. Is it the fault of IMM's that the players are using them for PK instead of RP? Not fully, no. It's us players. With my last nexus, Atsul(a) I used it all the time for RP. Of course I used it for PK as well, but the RP aspects of it are so tempting.

Sure any PK skill can be used for RP, but the primary use is for PK. See the power of my fireball! "cast fireball". But the skills are almost exclusively used for either buffing yourself or killing opponents. Besides, the RP of the spell is VERY weak. We just see: someone utters the words, "ycccesioharrr".

Animate corpse: You've created a zombie! Wow! Only functional.

I'll need some more examples of RP skills. (skills that do not revolve around PK/mob hunting).

[The Forsaken]

It doesn't take intelligence, it takes wisdom. That is why communers are based around the WIS stat, not some 'faith' stat. Even a fire giant with a 15 wis has enough wisdom to perform miracles for a god. Does that mean 15 wisdom is supernatural? If so, maybe the average really is 8. If not, why are they able to commune?

No...15 wisdom isn't supernatural. The average really isn't 8. Because based on the system in place, you can get from 1-4 practices per level. Same with practicing spells/skills. It can take anywhere from 1, to however many practices you can put in it.(I really don't know...I've never tried to practice something with an 8 stat) Based on that, average wisdom would be if you got between 2 and 3 practices per level. We'll just go with three. Above average would be getting 4. Fire giants are not above average, and I'd fight tooth and nail to even say they are plain average. Giants have always been getting the end of the stick in the fantasy world. Because they just aren't bright. Now, you can RP one that is amazingly brilliant. But guess what? Everyone does.

Really? Might want to check that one!

I'll admit to the fact that I wasn't clear enough on that point. Fire Giant clerics won't cast in a cabal, they will commune. Fire giant anything else's will infact cast.

[The Forsaken]

You'll have to point out some RP skills that have an effect on the world/environment. Sing is just a channel, the same as say and emote.

Control Weather. PK derived, sure. But is it an RP skill as well? Hell, you just made a storm. It has an effect on the world/environment. But, for the most part, all of us sit out in the rain.

Sure any PK skill can be used for RP, but the primary use is for PK. See the power of my fireball! "cast fireball". But the skills are almost exclusively used for either buffing yourself or killing opponents. Besides, the RP of the spell is VERY weak. We just see: someone utters the words, "ycccesioharrr".

Animate corpse: You've created a zombie! Wow! Only functional.

I'll need some more examples of RP skills. (skills that do not revolve around PK/mob hunting).

The majority of skills I am speaking of are cabal related so we can't really go into them due to forum rules. But I can think of rp viable skills out of every cabal except for WM, and that's just because i've never played one before.

Sing is just another channel, you're right. But it has a different color, which makes it much cooler. You have to realize everything in this mud is just another channel.

[Celerity]

No...15 wisdom isn't supernatural. The average really isn't 8. Because based on the system in place' date=' you can get from 1-[b']5 practices per level.

Based on that, average wisdom would be if you got between 2 and 3 practices per level.

Who says we should base it on that? Maybe we should base it on the base stats at char generation (? Maybe half of the max (12.5). Maybe human stats (20)? Who knows? It isn't defined, so nobody knows. Maybe YOU can base it on that, but the game isn't based on that. It isn't clear.

Fire giants are not above average, and I'd fight tooth and nail to even say they are plain average.

If fire giants have the lowest max int/wis stats, and you would fight to say they are average, does that mean all races are based around the 15 stat? Why do you choose that stat as average?

Are player chars the same as mobs? Are all fire giants at 15 int? Or just players?

We really just don't know. We don't know if 21 INT is 50% better than 20 INT, or if it is only 2% better. Maybe it isn't linear.

[Kyzarius]

Rp skills? what else do you want *boggle* you can do anything, you can smote you can customize your say messages (if you dont know how then ask!)

both of whic on most muds are things you cannot do..

Really, the tools a normal character gets to rp with are more than sufficient. All that is missing is the creativity, thats your part.

[Celerity]

We seem to be having some major differences here.

Control Weather. PK derived, sure. But is it an RP skill as well? Hell, you just made a storm. It has an effect on the world/environment. But, for the most part, all of us sit out in the rain.

What exactly does sitting in the rain do to our characters except allowing them to be struck by lightning (only in PK, btw)?

The majority of skills I am speaking of are cabal related so we can't really go into them due to forum rules. But I can think of rp viable skills out of every cabal except for WM, and that's just because i've never played one before.

Well, OK, how about the MINORITY of skills you are thinking about?

You have to realize everything in this mud is just another channel.

No, no. Only channels are channels. Most skills have a direct PK affect in the game. There are no such RP skills. The best I can do is emote something and pretend it happened. PK skills don't have the pretending stage.