"That's why I kill people": A Retiree's Thoughts on Counterstrike-RP, FL, and more

[Valsgarde]

Sorry, but fire giants have the 'theological' roots to be clerics, not the 'philosophical' roots. I agree with Irum's post about wisdom/intel and mudding. It doesn't take a very bright person to have faith in a deity.

Philosophy and Theology aren't very far apart at all, seeing as a mythos will 99 times out of a 100 incorporate or be based on the philosophy of the cultural ethos that founded it. The Teutonic spirituality is very much warrior and/or agriculture based, depending on the sub-ethnicity. The Egyptian spirituality is very much based on introspection and thoughts on the afterlife. Philosophy and Theology are inseparable within any given race/ethnicity's culture.

I disagree with Irumeru's post for a number of reasons. The wisdom/intelligence examples given, in my opinion, show a clear misunderstanding on what they mean in the first place (It's been a long time since I've read it, but I remember MLK Jr. and Ghandi being heralded as super wise figures. Pfft, how wise do you have to be to want equality? It's a basic human desire to be treated with dignity and not be downtrodden. A wise figure would be the Dalai Llama, or Aristotle, or someone of that sort. But whatever, my problems with that whole essay, which I feel to be self-aggrandizing anyway, are irrelevent other than I think that using it as the basis for RP in theory and practice in FL is an absolutely terrible idea).

You're right, it doesn't take someone very bright to have faith in a deity; except for the fact that there's way more to being a cleric than having faith. A cleric isn't just a worshipper, a cleric is a paragon, extension, and embodiment of the spirituality that he/she/it exalts. Such an intimate relationship with the divine can only sprout from a profound and fundamental understanding of said spirituality/God(form).

In FL, the God you pray to directly rewards you whenever you ask for it.

Let's see you pray for something IG and see if you get it. Doubtful at all, and directly? Bloody unlikely at best, impossible at worst. Try playing a non-communer and give casting divine spells a shot. Won't work. That notion alone wholly supports my previous paragraph that said that clerics are more than just believers, they are, as the title suggests, the Will of Gods - which completely trumps the idea that FGs are these blithering idiots that might as well be brainless altogether.

Sure, RP a fire giant mage, and if it is given to you, then RP trumps all, right? Then what happens to the feral that is one shotted by your fireball?

Yes, RP trumps all. What happens to that feral that's one shotted? Just the same as the victims of assassinations, or the double-backstab from an undead pandy, or any number of things. There is a large element of Paper-Scissors-Rock with any Online PvP-oriented RPG, and this is one of them. Yeah, the FG invoker might turn that feral into ashes, but very much at the cost of likely getting its face torn off to previously unknown levels of extremeness by most other race/class combos. Sucks for the feral, but the FG is at just as horrible of a disadvantage in many other respects. The oh-so-important Balance (note the capital B for emphasized importance) is maintained, hurrah.

Outside the realm of basic, standard, run-of-the-mill race/class combos, I'm not a very big proponent of enforced PK-balance in the first place. I'm of the school of thought that if you worked hard enough to get something, like becoming a total dominator for instance, you ought to have the right have it - the right to be a total dominator, in this case to continue the example. Pigeon-holing everything into some PK-power communist way of managing gameplay so everyone stays equal removes the incentive to excel above and beyond.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not some PK-monger by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not even very good at PK in FL, except with a couple classes. I just used it as a specific example. The same applies to me if you've earned notable RP status, like becoming a Noble. One ought to be able to enjoy the fruits of their labors, others be damned. If they don't want to be inferior they had the exact same opportunity to work harder to be something greater as well.

I don't want to achieve X because X is X, I want to achieve X because it will make me more/greater/better than you. The context and comparison of the highly distinguished to the norm/status quo is what makes the highly distinguished highly distinguished.

[Celerity]

If you are looking for ideas about how to expand what players can aspire to be, take a look at what another MUD has done with it's nobility:

http://www.harshlands.net/Pages/Nobility.aspx

Also, the craft system:

http://www.harshlands.net/Pages/Crafts.aspx

And all sorts of other systems in place that don't revolve around PK.

I am NOT advocating this RP/PK MUD at all, I am simply using the design as an example of things that FL could incorporate. I don't play there. FL has many advantages over this MUD in different areas

[Ex-D&Der]

Let’s look at the forum as an example. We edit out cabal skills and rare item effects and even spell affects these days. Why? To ‘keep things secret’. From who? Newbies. No one else. People, the MUD is almost a decade old now. For nearly everyone who has played here a meaningful length of time, there pretty much IS no real amount of secrets, at least where cabal powers go. The only people who are being kept in the dark are the people who need help the most: Newbies.

I think there's actually a different problem, which is a core group of people who have explored the MUD to the point where there has been what might be called PK skill inflation. That is, to be competitive at PK requires a higher level of knowledge of the MUD than it once did--and a correspondingly higher amount of time put in.

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that this is everyone but Newbies. I don't put myself in this group, for instance. I've been here since 1.0, but I don't really know very much.

Also, I think it would be helpful Raargant if you could give some examples of characters whose RP you think was good, besides the non-PKing variety (e.g. Korthian). I don't think the problem is so much Counterstrike RP, as simply excessive PK, even when it is accompanied with good RP. I do think this more or less ruins the run for most players, especially when accompanied by skill (and time) inflation.

One solution would be to simply up the quality of sub-Winter rares again. Redo the uber-gear areas from time to time so harvesting uber-gear isn't routine. Maybe even make it so each character can only get this gear once, like certain quest items. And police Cabal members very closely--especially whenever they kill an uncaballed person. This should be done only for excellent reason. The IMMs can't police everyone all the time, but they can police cabal members.

[Raargant]

I think there's actually a different problem, which is a core group of people who have explored the MUD to the point where there has been what might be called PK skill inflation. That is, to be competitive at PK requires a higher level of knowledge of the MUD than it once did--and a correspondingly higher amount of time put in.

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that this is everyone but Newbies. I don't put myself in this group, for instance. I've been here since 1.0, but I don't really know very much.

Also, I think it would be helpful Raargant if you could give some examples of characters whose RP you think was good, besides the non-PKing variety (e.g. Korthian). I don't think the problem is so much Counterstrike RP, as simply excessive PK, even when it is accompanied with good RP. I do think this more or less ruins the run for most players, especially when accompanied by skill (and time) inflation.

One solution would be to simply up the quality of sub-Winter rares again. Redo the uber-gear areas from time to time so harvesting uber-gear isn't routine. Maybe even make it so each character can only get this gear once, like certain quest items. And police Cabal members very closely--especially whenever they kill an uncaballed person. This should be done only for excellent reason. The IMMs can't police everyone all the time, but they can police cabal members.

Ex, you'd still mop the floor with most newbies . But I do concur with you on the skill/knowledge inflation. Which is why I feel that it is so important for the forums to be a place where knowledge can be freely exchanged, to help offset the effects of that inflation.

I listed Korthian in specific because I feel that in relatively recent history, he is perhaps the single character I can recall who had the most real impact on this MUD in terms of bringing something to it and making it more enjoyable. Of course, not everyone can be (nor should be) Korthian; everything else aside, it was a tremendous deal of work! For an example of a player who has a good balance of PK and RP, I think Deykari is an excellent example.

I'm not trying to somehow advocate a way for everyone to become paragons of RP. I'm just trying to advocate some ways by which we can encourage and reward non-PK based RP, or at least non-silent PK RP.

I do think that a rare overhaul is perhaps in order, but first, we need to redo the purge system (perhaps script it) so that rares can't stay out of circulation for months=>a year. That really keeps the supply down.

[Raargant]

Celerity, I'm curious to hear what ideas you have on hard-coded RP awards. To my understanding and belief, it's precisely because RP is so difficult to quantify and to review the quality of (as opposed to PK), which makes it nearly impossible to automate the reward of it through code.

My view, which I expressed in an earlier post, is that the easiest way to get rid of mindless PK is remove some of the incentives/enablers of it, and be active in giving much more incentives to RP interactions we see.

[Aeva]

i really like all of these ideas and thoughts. this thread is a pleasure to read thus far (though im not even finished yet).

fostering more RP interactions would be wonderful, whether done by new coding or simply written plots.

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that said, i am 100% against all of the following:

1. making "middle of the road" rares

why? theres a ton out there already that are in all the time, go look around.

2. removing rares entirely

why? that's just plain stupid, no offense.

3. more whiney ideas about rares

why? stop already

i AM all for finding a way to make LI unavailable unless you are outnumbered by members of other cabals that yours is warring.

there are PLENTY of quality rares around for the size of the current pbase. i think a lot of these complainers think they are "entitled" to having unique eq at some point or something. here's news: nobody is entitled to any eq unless they worked through the area to get it or killed somebody that had it. if you want better equipment, go get it - you know how. cant seem to? get better. learn.

hey, i have an idea - i only have a couple hours a week that i can devote to playing for the next couple months. i think we should limit every pfile to 5 hours a week or less, after which time they cannot log in until the next week. see my point?

we cant just change the game because a bunch of people are mad about never getting uber eq. earth to everyone - some people are better than pk at others, some people are better at RP than others, some people put in more work to find things than others, and each of those strengths come hand in hand with other in-game benefits.

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ok sorry to get on that eq rant. ive been writing this in part and parcel over the past couple hours in spare moments. ahem.

i have some awesome ideas, but i have to hang on to them for a little while yet

who would i contact, imm-wise, about some thoughts i have for some fun rp+pk plot-ey stuff?

[Kyzarius]

could always give the syndicate trusted means to remove a bounty from someone, however the reasons would have to be noted and radnomly verified to snoop out cheats. *shrug*

At least by trusted you have what...20+ hours of ingame time to validate that the person isnt a flake and will uphold the "nature" of the criminal organization.

[Aeva]

wow i thought t meant like 100 hours :: peer lytholm ::

i keed, i keed.

[Malchaeius]

Celerity:

The fire giant thing was not directed at you. I was trying to think of an unintelligent race, and that came to mind. I have to admit though, as the Queen of Fire Giants it would have to appear that I was taking a subliminal at you.

I am very curious about RP skills. Can you brainstorm a few that you think would fit into the Aabahran atmosphere, or do you think that certain skills now should do more?

[delfytheelfy]

I <3 Malch

[Mister E]

If there were "rp points" maybe players could buy title string tokens and/or eq restring tokens. I think custom titles should be more common and as for eq strings maybe have them reset if the item gets looted since I dont think we should have more owner only items.

edit: Also Celerity had a good idea a while back about being able to customize the "in room string" so it doesnt always say soandso is resting here/sleeping here/or just plain is here.

[TheNewGuy]

Theology is just philosophy about religion.

a fire giant with a 15 wis has enough wisdom to perform miracles for a god. Does that mean 15 wisdom is supernatural? If so, maybe the average really is 8. If not, why are they able to commune?

It's not the fire giant who preform the miracles. It's said FGs deity who does. That means that the FG can be incredibly studid and still commune.

[The End]

You are talking out of your a**. You have no idea what I did or did not authorize anyone to do. What was or was not given to Eshaine. I will leave it at that.

Thank you for agreeing with me. The simple fact is we didn't know, we were left in the dark and saw no IMP involvement. We were abandoned. It takes YOU to keep this place going because without an IMP there is no reason to keep playing

We are straying from the intentions of Raargant's original post with zoo monkey behavior - sh*t-slinging and finger-pointing. Unless I am wrong (and Raargant, please correct me if I am) the purpose was not to be RETROactive but PROactive. It was not to play the blame game.

REDMARKERED

As for updates, I would love to give them, but I have seen people crucify Virigoth, Crypticant, Arzaeth, and Irumeru when they gave updates about what they were working on and inevitably did not produce in time. So please excuse me if I am a little... hesitant. Let us just say that I will pull the George W. Bush card and not give you a time-table that I may or may not be able to keep. However, you guys do have the right to know something. In lieu of that:

REDMARKERED. If you can't handle the gripes, hand it over bro because they will NEVER stop coming. All you can do is hold on and bear it.

There are approximately 29 code changes/fixes coming in the near future. That is, they have already been made on test port, and they are working, but they are simply awaiting a few more to complete the set.

REDMARKERED. What changes, what fixes. If it's in on test port give us SOMETHING to break the stagnation. How about a website update, an anthing update with specifics so we can look forward to it EVEN IF IT NEVER COMES TO SEE LIGHT. That information will spark the curiosness of quite a few players and will give them ideas which may/may not great. But hey, it's something new to the pot.

See the above in bold.

Now, Celerity, I love you. If I wasn't married....oh yeah.

I think that you have had the absolute most impacted voice here, but also the most ignored sadly. I hope for everyone that they listen to you, because I doubt they will listen to me.

Raargant, cudos to making the first step. I hope that you don't take this as an insult to anyone because it's not.

REDMARKERED. If you two made an effort to open up to the PB, it would greatly impact the MUD. Don't think that "Hey, I am the admin I can't comment becuase people will take is as word" That mentality is only because you choose to view it that way, so the players will as well.

Everyone else, I am still here and hopefuly will be around to read every now and again. I honestly think all of you great company, yes all of you, and hope that we can stay in touch.

I will be more than happy to keep responding to this post.

[Raargant]

This thread isn't intended to complain about the IMPS, to give them licks, or to give them things to 'suck up'. Further posts in this vein will be deleted. I may have retired, but I assure you, my redmarker is still by my side!

[Celerity]

Here we go for the third time...my computer has been shutting down too often lately!

I thought of a RP skill that FL has: Dice. It has no PK ability, but even this very simple RP skill does do a lot for FL.

Raar: RP award automation example would be the restring example in one of my previous posts.

Another would be the reputation revamp that I proposed awhile back (ex. fire giants and feral have a max reputation of BAD, so if a fire giant hunts feral a little bit, it drops down to awful very quickly, providing an automatic RP consquence for his actions)...but please keep it in the mindset of automated consquences! (not rewards/punishments---which have a very different connotation, as your gatekeeper example pointed out)

(http://www.forsakenlands.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7066) <-- reputation thread

Malch, if you take a look at my previous thread covering this same topic (http://www.forsakenlands.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11681), you'll find this paragraph:

This is why MUDs incorporate things like families (giving RP chars PK power--not only PC families, but NPC and gene-systems also), IC games, player economies, non-PK skills (making food, items, altering the game environment (ex. baking, animal-handling, mining, building, and so on)), player religions, and other things to do IC that don't always involve PK.

A very simple example of an RP skill would be to allow communers to construct their own holy symbols (hopefully with something a little more involved than co 'holy symbol'--a binding ritual or something). They would be flashy, take up the extra 'symbol' eq slot, and give absolutely no bonuses whatsoever (except for being an obvious faithful--could make it a requirement that communers need a holy symbol for level 30+ spells). Tattoos could be reformed in a similar way.

Another potential small rp system is the expanding quest system. More quests = more things to do!

Medium scale RP systems/skills would be for example creating homes (or crypts for necromancers! )--any number of minor systems could be based off that, including automated adventures (or even player-guided ones: assailable homes...it is so much cooler when the boss of the level is a PLAYER, imagine that!), retainers/vassals (mobs that do non-PK or defensive things) and so on.

Large scale RP systems could include the two examples I posted with links earlier, about laws (much better designed than FL's) and crafts respectively.

Anyone can easily search google to find out about potential RP skills.

Basically, the idea is to make a richer, more code-supported RP platform for the game (which should ultimately incorporate a healthy mixture of PK/RP).

Because PK has been developed for so long on FL, the more important thing is to give things for people to do, or aspire to do, that don't involve (or are completely based around) pking people (ex. cabals).

['tarako]

'In regards to the reputation thread. I didnt see anything in there about increasing ones reputation. I got the whole if you kill creatures of that race they are going to hate you more, but there was nothing on how to improve relations. maybe quests or some such.

[TheNewGuy]

A very simple example of an RP skill would be to allow communers to construct their own holy symbols (hopefully with something a little more involved than co 'holy symbol'--a binding ritual or something). They would be flashy, take up the extra 'symbol' eq slot, and give absolutely no bonuses whatsoever (except for being an obvious faithful--could make it a requirement that communers need a holy symbol for level 30+ spells).

VERY, VERY cool idea! Though I don't see why it couldn't have just a small bonus, just for encouragement. It could be religion-based, and vary between -5 ac, +5 hp, +5 mana, etc. No big stuff. One balance issue though, about making them needed to commune. Wouldn't be fun to have it/them stolen by a thief in a fight, since it is a long process to make a new one.

[Celerity]

The problem would be easily solved by making it noremove/nouncurse/bound...

[Deykari]

I would disagree with it having any sort of stats, as that then gives it an incentive to use it in the PK and not just for RP reasons. I do like the idea of it being able to be stolen though, like the cleric considering it the highest in disrespect and insult to himself, his religion and his diety, trying to call upon all others in his religion to bring down holy wrath onto said thief or something.

Dey

[TheNewGuy]

I just came up with how to prevent them from being stolen. Owner-only! I wouldnt like them to be noremove, since you maybe want to make a new, more well made one?

Tho having them do nothing, and letting them be stolen, sure does have a cool RP angle too, like Dey said.

[Pali]

I really like the idea of it being stealable too... it'd be a huge insult to the communer. But if it is, don't make it so that they can't commune without it. The idea here is to add RP flavor, not PK flavor.

[Evangelion]

My idea for hard-coded RP abilities/awards is now in the ideas section.

[Mudder]

So I just read this beast... All 13 pages. Ouch!

I completely agree with Behrens and his essay, "Int, Wis, Mudding and You." It always annoyed me when people played races with less than 18 int smarter than most IRL college level humans.

Here is how I do it. Humans are an average we can all agree on, because we are human. 18 int/wis sounds like a good average smart guy. 16 for giants? I make this jump to say they are relatively retarted.

Any of you met some of my giants? Denik, Kongol. Both Stone giants, and I feel that is the proper RP for them. They may not quite get language fully, bad grammar (they ARE dumber than rednecks, right?) and when introduced with a new concept, they shouldn't understand it right away.

As much as I liked RPing with Suunmar, I think he was wayyy off base with the intelligence a FG should have. Though, if it were a rarity, it would be fine... But everyone likes to make their FG smarter than drows.

[Celerity]

Anyways back to the RP topic. Any word from Raar or Malch?

[Guest emp_newb]

I see malch alot recently in game, not to mention his forum appearances.