myrek Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 the problem may be the strength of tribunal, not just the strength of the character and the strength of the player. once the other cabals start muscling around, it should put some more heat on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chayesh Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 the problem may be the strength of tribunal' date=' not just the strength of the character and the strength of the player. once the other cabals start muscling around, it should put some more heat on them.[/quote'] It's the combination of three things. Strong player with a strong class in a strong cabal (a combination that BTW puts some very interesting weaknesses out there that NO ONE has bothered to take the time to find before complaining, I might add) will put a lot of people down. I don't hear anyone complaining about the gnome warrior former Tribunal, the two healer Tribunals, the drow warrior Tribunal, the ranger or the Paladin so it can't be the cabal powers. Not to put down any other Tribunal players, but all three don't come together in all of those from what I've seen. My advice: LEARN. I hate to point fingers, but thinking along the lines of Despiser/WC/L-A might be good for some of you...make PK a science and learn it. To me, ganging just because you "can't win" is not even trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrek Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 i've complained about justice-type powers. but not since i've been back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chayesh Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 i've complained about justice-type powers. but not since i've been back! Yeah, but that's you, ya gimp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anithraril Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 I am not sure anyone has pointed this out, but if you read that help file it says group vs group, not group verses one. If you come back and tell me a single person (and their related skills of course) qualifies as a group, you need help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chayesh Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Why shouldn't they gang if they can't win? I don't see the problem here...if there is a strong character who is beating on everyone' date=' what right does he have to keep on it? People SHOULD gang him if he won't die. What possible reason would you say not to? That it doesn't constitute fair gameplay? That it motivates people 'to gang?' Oh, and the second part is a radical presumption. Please explain.[/quote'] I did. See the first time you posted this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-D&Der Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 I've played a vamp and I think I successfully mastered most of the skills. And let me tell you' date=' vamps are nearly impossible to kill if you don't know what you're doing. The qclass is supremely buffed up, and in the hands of a skilled player, should be able to beat any class/player.[/quote'] It's good to see someone finally admit this on the forum. But I think everyone already knows it to be true. They used to have one serious weakness, which was that healers could gate to them, but that was changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 So' date=' as I said, when you've played a vampire to 50 and been successful, then you can come back and talk. This is all just uneducated, misinformed guesswork.[/quote'] I have never played a thief, necromancer, battlemage, ranger, druid, cleric (good or evil), shaman, berserker, vampire, lich, or crusader to 50. Nor have I played a stone giant, fire giant, storm giant, human, werebeast, duergar, drow, illithid, slith, feral, minotaur, or half-elf to 50. Does that make all my tactics and information regarding them "uneducated, misinformed guesswork"? A tiny bit, yes. But that doesn't mean every time I encounter one of the above they beat the crap out of me, nor does it mean I know nothing about them. You'd be amazed how much I know about vampire abilities, not because I've had one (never had one, actually... never got around to it), but because I've fought them so many times, or fought alongside them, I've learned what they can and can't do. Just because not everyone can create a powerpack with a race/class combo doesn't mean they don't know it or how to fight it. EDIT: Oh, and Chayesh... are you referring to normal PK ganging, or cabal warfare ganging? The first annoys the crap out of me, the latter I see as part of being in a cabal with enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-D&Der Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 PK is about learning. What do you learn about PK when you group with 4 others to take someone down? That if we don't win we better bring 5 next time? And why shouldn't somebody owning the playerbase continue to get to do so? Do valedictorians get given F's so the rest of the class can feel better about themselves? I see one flaw in your reasoning here, which is your comparison of FL to a competition for first place. Crypticant once specifically contradicted the idea of winning the MUD, and said the whole point of cabals was to enhance the role-playing experience for the playerbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goomf Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 So, "Do as I say, but not as I do"? Newer players to the MUD see a gang of pinns running off to slay one character. This easily breeds more of the same at all different levels rather than teaching that ganging is except in the rarest of circumstances extremely lame. PK is about learning. What do you learn about PK when you group with 4 others to take someone down? That if we don't win we better bring 5 next time? And why shouldn't somebody owning the playerbase continue to get to do so? Do valedictorians get given F's so the rest of the class can feel better about themselves? If your concern is getting a larger pbase, most assuredly that stating 'do not gangbang really powered, possibly overpowered, characters' will draw some of the oldies away. They probably will lose the incentive to play. I know that with Melkhior, I constantly had no one in my pk range because alot of them knew they were contracted and didn't want to die (and yes, I think melkhior was overpowered). If your concern is how it affects newbies, then yes, it is a valid point in a hypothetical situation. If they see a bunch of people gangbanging, they might think that it's ok. On the other hand, if they know that the person being gangbanged is super buff, a vampire with possibly something special going on, they might surmise that the reason why he is being gangbanged is because people are having EXTREMELY difficult time killing him, they might learn. Someone who is owning the pbase should get to do so, but they should also have to face greater challenges. Obviously the person in question is owning the pbase and having an easy to mediocre time doing it. Would you have a stagnant pk level and have someone constantly creating new characters and owning the pk range? What would that accomplish? And finally, giving examples about valevictorians really doesn't have much to do with this situation. I can give an example about a pack of hyenas working together to take down a lion, but that won't really emphasize anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorCleric Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 I am not sure anyone has pointed this out' date=' but if you read that help file it says group vs group, not group verses one. If you come back and tell me a single person (and their related skills of course) qualifies as a group, you need help.[/quote'] I mentioned that in my post, with rational supporting my view of things. WC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Totenkopf- Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Played 5 or so vampires, in the correct hands, damn near impossible to die. And yes, especially now that healers cant gate to them. Even then it was damn near impossible, if you had half a clue and weren't being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrek Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 i still say paper scissor rock... besides, no one can be ready ALL the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Totenkopf- Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Noone can be ready all the time, thats correct, but it can be damn nigh impossible to find a vampire, if they dont want to be found, which means they can easily hide away when not ready. I never had any issues of being routed out when I wasn't prepared with any of my vampires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balinor Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 You had never fought a tracker ranger, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrek Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 wait a sec... healers can't gate to them now!?!?!? how did I miss that line? that is reason numero uno why my last two vamps got deleted. screw it. you're all dead. Matha-what-the-hell-ever is going to rule the world. tremble in his presence. yada yada yada so on and so for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goomf Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Gangbangs should be permitted for awesome characters. I don't think they should have the right to keep their equipment and not die. There should always be a leeway, and if one on ones don't work for some people, they should have the option to try two on ones. I personally like the challenge and prefer not to gangbang. However, being exposed to another mud has really taught me that sometimes, gangbang is the BEST and most EFFICIENT situation to both keep a balanced game and to increase pk competitiveness. Also, most characters who are super powerful are that much more so because of their equipment. Yes yes, people can argue that the skill matters, and it does. But that does not negate the fact that if someone has a few juicy juicy juicy items they kick much more ***. To promote an even flow of equipment, why shouldn't they be ganged? This concept also applies to people getting rare purged to get rid of hoarding. However, underlying that factor IS the spread of limited equipment. Ironically, this is a way to keep the game more balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goomf Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 I did. See the first time you posted this question. Yea sorry about the double post. Connections a bit slow sometimes at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balinor Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Gangbangs should be permitted for awesome characters. I don't think they should have the right to keep their equipment and not die. *cough* ninjas *cough* EQ circulation is reason number one for ninjas, dear Morathi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chayesh Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Yea sorry about the double post. Connections a bit slow sometimes at work. Sorry...thought you were just being a smartass like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chayesh Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 RE: Myrek Yes, that's true. Healers cannot gate to PC's for some time now. Only mobs. Viri gave them Dispel Evil, Stake, and the ability to cast Divine Retribution and protective shield at the same time. RE: Pali What you say is true. We are talking about strictly PK at the moment. The only time the IMMs have ever encouraged ganging was in defense of your standard, i.e. Nexus attacking Knight altar should expect any and all Knights online to swarm them. Interestingly enough, thinking about the issue, I don't see Tribunal catching criminals as either. It's part of their cabal duties, but it's not defense of the standard. But it's also not random PK either. They MUST go after them. Interesting...it fits neither my definition of PK or cabal warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goomf Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 *cough* ninjas *cough* EQ circulation is reason number one for ninjas, dear Morathi. That's specified to ONE class. Include thieves, that's TWO classes. You really want something as WIDE as eq circulation to be based on two classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balinor Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 On the off chance that a PK monster who can hold EQ for an inordinate amount of time is made? Sure. I'm not talking about day-to-day circulation. I'm talking about killing a big name, deemed unkillable by most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goomf Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 What you don't seem to understand is that is EXACTLY what we're talking about. This thread blossomed into "Should gang be permittable against an overpowering foe?" There are a few reasons why that person is overpowered, and one of the MAJOR reason is his eq. If someone has awesome eq, why should he have an easy time to keep it? Just so he can go around killing more people? It's obvious that people are having a hard time killing him one on one. You're talking about a big hoochie mama situation. How is that different then an everyday situation? I'm seriously not following your logic. Please expand your thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goomf Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Oh, and if you're suggesting people make ninjas/thieves JUST to screw with a character...that's inflicting STRONG ooc reasons and doesn't do well in promoting rp. I've done it and I've seen it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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