You mean other than the fact that it tracks the footprints of anyone of that race and not necessarily the one person you are hunting? Or that they can lead you really far away and recall' date=' throwing you off the path? Or that they can double back by entering and leaving an area?[/quote']
Not to mention there are certain terrain types you can't track on.
Charmed pets for DKs
You mean other than the fact that it tracks the footprints of anyone of that race and not necessarily the one person you are hunting? Or that they can lead you really far away and recall' date=' throwing you off the path? Or that they can double back by entering and leaving an area?[/quote']
Although malch, someone who is good at tracking... Lets say... Triathix - He is already good at tracking and then we remove all hope of escape by telling you exactly where he is.
The Pbase is only about 20-30 people strong at one time, so finding the right footprints out of the 2 possible faeries on the mud is not that big of a problem.
RE Archer Rangers: I honestly cant contribute, I never played my ranger like that I always initiated combat instead of shot at people from a distance.. That tactic doesnt jive with me either.
A-G. We were talking about IG hours with the ninja, not IRL. An assassinate SHOULD be a long process. It should be hard and should fail often. At the moment it is a very quick process and hardly ever fails.
I had a ninja in 1.0. To full study it was a long process. I still failed at times. These days? You have to try to fail.
Why do ninjas get fired weapons? Unblockable damage and shadow arts(or doublesheath)? Too much. Fired weapons is a melee thing. Zerks don't even get it and they need it way more than ninjas... Who with caltraps and nerve can take the melee power out of anyone.
You guys all suck at not being assassinated, if all this is true. The thing is, I don't think it is true and you're talking out your asses, heheh. I've been assassinated once, and that was during cabal warfare in the ford where I really had no choice but to be studied or log off without my standard. I made the choice to stay. I'm sure many other people can say the same about hardly ever being assassinated. You really have to not be paying attention to get nailed, and even with my falcon eye ninja the people I studied were the doofuses that sat in Central Commons chatting away, or were otherwise fairly motionless.
Dude its pretty easy, not only that but Rykar used to assassinate Dumela like it was no tomorrow,
-450 ac across the board,
-40 svsspell and similar to the rest across the board.
+50 +50 hit dam
AND I WAS HASTED EVERY TIME
and he didnt even have to strangle me. He'd just walk in an *** me.
Thats pretty op imo. Sure put me to sleep and it should be easy to kill someone, but this hugely armored, hasted, huge hit/dam rolled ranger who is awake? Cummon... Always thought that was over the top.
Number one, don't fight when the tic is about to pass.
Number two, I wanna know more about this haste. I was under the strong impression that haste only helped the ninja succeed, but didn't affect the victim.
Number three, some third reason that makes this all come together in a convincing way.
You mean other than the fact that it tracks the footprints of anyone of that race and not necessarily the one person you are hunting? Or that they can lead you really far away and recall' date=' throwing you off the path? Or that they can double back by entering and leaving an area?[/quote']
The small pb, knowing that your prey is trying to get away from you i.e. using deductive reasoning, fleeing to water or far away places and wording haven't worked well for me. Many a times have I tried doing each of these and usually resulted in them finding me, or me running out of moves or thinking I got away because I worded only for him to rush back to where he guesses my temple could be (if he doesn't already know) and picking up the tracks from there, it becomes neverending. With my battles against Triathix vs Lamah/Drayson/Zebb I'd have to lock myself behind doors, teleportation, log off and log back on and all types of get away tactics to get away from him. It is the same for other rangers that already can track well and know how to use the track skill. Never have I experienced anything as bad from the tracking cabal abilities. We can't discuss it here but most of them take a longer period of time for it to be effective, and with others there are ways to negate/prepare/or combat them. What makes track so powerful is that its so much faster and so much more aggressive and its effectiveness in speed negates the weaknesses that it comes with.
I think Tass nailed my feelings about track right on the head.
Dude its pretty easy, not only that but Rykar used to assassinate Dumela like it was no tomorrow,
-450 ac across the board,
-40 svsspell and similar to the rest across the board.
+50 +50 hit dam
AND I WAS HASTED EVERY TIME
and he didnt even have to strangle me. He'd just walk in an *** me.
Thats pretty op imo. Sure put me to sleep and it should be easy to kill someone, but this hugely armored, hasted, huge hit/dam rolled ranger who is awake? Cummon... Always thought that was over the top.
Didn't play when Dumela was roaming, so I have no idea... but lemme ask some questions:
I hear all about Dumela, (s)he was hardcore. When you played (s)he, did you play for hours at a time?
I find it hard to believe that you'd log in, two minutes later you'd be assassinated. If you were on for an hour or two, and then got assassinated, I'm fine with it. If it was the previous, yeah, big problem.
Just because you were all rared out and armoured and hasted doesn't mean you should be invincible (you know this, just using it as a building point), if you got killed by a zerker who spent 20 minutes getting a bunch of potions, waiting for you to get your guard down to start the attack, would it still be a problem?
I'm willing to bet (although I have no personal experience) Rykar spent 20 minutes waiting for your guard to get down, and at least twice to three times that time studying you.
Basically, my point is you had time to defend yourself and work around and find out he was there. Everyone says, "You've got to where pk every eight commands" or some such. But, why not expand that so that your obligation to stay alive might mean reaching out to those who can see hidden people? Asking a thief, "Hey, wanna make a buck?" or staying in the middle of forests (well, I'd figure you knew that... hippie) or quaffing fireball potions or wands or staves of super blow up or so on. Unless Rykar had that conclave skill that allowed them to be hidden another way... which may have been the case.
Please don't feel I'm calling you out or saying you're unskilled, you're twice the player I am... and with that beautiful face I'd say twice the man.
a-g
Rykar would study people as they attacked the altar. I'm not sure what his selection was, he might not have been falcon eye.
I have seen a ninja get a full study in 5 ticks. Do you know how easy it is to have someone stay in the same area as you for 1 tick? You only have to do that 5 times, at minimum for a full study. It's extremely fast if you stay in the same area for 5 ticks. Which again isn't that long.
Back in 1.0, you would have to study a miminum of 3 sessions and you still didn't always have a full study. I want it to be like that again. (Though I dislike assassinate as a skill at all to be honest. It's not like ninjas can't melee with the best of them anyway already)
Dude trust me, I didnt give him the OPPORTUNITY to study me any more then I could. I would leave their standard and fight his minions instead out of city areas...
He did NOT take long to study me.
Rykar would study people as they attacked the altar. I'm not sure what his selection was, he might not have been falcon eye.
I have seen a ninja get a full study in 5 ticks. Do you know how easy it is to have someone stay in the same area as you for 1 tick? You only have to do that 5 times, at minimum for a full study. It's extremely fast if you stay in the same area for 5 ticks. Which again isn't that long.
Inmek only needed 3-4 ticks to assassinate someone. I can get that many from a single strangle. If they attacked my altar they were an idiot. If they fought cabal warfare against someone else, you can kiss your wares goodbye if you weren't battling with li. If they tried fighting me, lol good luck with that if you couldn't bashlock me you had nearly zero change of beating me before I got the study. Sometimes I'd come out of hiding about 5-7 seconds before the tick just to get a study in then go back into hiding whereas they would think I came out to fight. That was so gay hence the reason you haven't seen me as assassin ninja let alone a ninja period in awhile. Ironically I see this as the only way to combat there bane classes. Even if this tactic was weakened or taken away how would ninjas then fair against them? i.e. saders/vamps or certain syndie/knight/trib combos. They have probably the most unfair chance against their banes then the other classes do. Who wants to play a class with virtually no chance against another? This ninja problem is a difficult one to face.
Ninjas have an intense melee output. Nerve/caltraps really enhance this even more.
Those bane classes you mentioned... A feral ninja can outmelee a vampire if done right. I've seen it done. It was brutal. Crusader? A ninja has a better chance against a Crusader than a warrior does.
Ninjas do not need assassinate, especially not the "easy assassinate" selection.
EDIT: We can't count cabals in this mix, since a ninja can also join certain cabals to negate their vulns.
Well, I have NEVER been assassinated, so I am not having a rant because I have been assassinated. So, why, if I have never been assassinated, am I complaining? Because, I may not have been assassinated, but I also don't go anywhere near ninjas. I log, or run run run. Well.. keep doing this you say. Doesn't this effectively make them invincible, if all you are going to do is run from them? I saw someone get assassinated about 5 minutes after they logged in, and they were primilarly in forest/water areas and constantly on the move.
If I had detect hidden, I would refuse to go near a ninja as it is. It used to be more then quick enough before. Over about 12-16 in game hours Tetsunai managed to get a full study on me. I was chasing them around Val Miran this whole time - I knew at this point I'd be about full studied, so I logged. Its not hard at all to avoid someone, especially with sneak and even more so if you cannot see hidden. A-G speaks getting a thief to help you and tell you where they are. What the hell kind of stupid ninja is going to sit in the same room as you and study you, when they have a range of 7 rooms or more. VERY VERY few, and those who do, deserve to die, over and over and over. If I saw someone I was studying walk into the room, I'd quickly exit. Its not like studying someone lags you. So that point is null and void. Haste wont help you vs a ninja assassinate, unless something has changed since I used to play. Also, its not hard to have a 95% chance to land assassinate. Even if ninjas didn't have hidden I still think they'd assassinate ALOT of people (well, one with half a clue, not one that sits in the same room as their target). The only bonus in this instance is you'd be able to spam them when they come in. If your bashing and miss though, kiss your arse good bye.
I guess there could be several fixes tweaks:
a) Make it so you have to be in the same room to study, then a fireball potion would be a viable option. Also a forest or water area would be a safe area, not just another area where they can study the hell out of you.
Change the success ceiling chance to something more around 50%. Then there is some risk involved, at the moment, I think you can have a 95% chance to assassinate. That is a 1 in 20 chance to fail (honestly, I think this would make it probably one of the most reliable skills in the game). Adjust modifiers to work within the new range. Now, if they fail, they could risk death if against a giant warrior class. If against a cleric/mage, well, really, they get off scott free and get to try again. They may get faerie fired in the assassinate delay which gives the caster/communer SOME chance.
Archery Rangers:
Archery rangers can make it particularly hard for you to run quickly using a certain arrow. This effectively means if they dirt you and employ their shoot tactic, I suspect they are going to at least get 150hp from you before you manage to get out of view. When I was fighting a ranger, their meelee attacks were doing mauls to decimates, yet their arrows were doing lacerates. I have been fighting someone with a vuln weapon and decent hit/dam and was only doing lacerates. Perhaps make damage scale with your hit/dam, if it doesn't already do. Also, I consider archery about 5 times as powerful as shadowstrike was prior to the change, and it was considered overpowered. It really does need to be dodgable/blockable by some means, IMHO. At the moment, you could quite easily be killed without even fighting someone, or at least half killed before the battle even begins. I don't consider myself to be THAT lacking in PK ability. I would hate to see what'd happen to someone with even less PK ability.
The track skill:
Guess the main points have already been covered
The fact it picks up other peoples tracks is null and void. It'll be very rare there are more then two people of the same race around, and I really pity quest races in this regard as there isn't usually more then one of them on at any one point in time. If your a psionicist or vampire, just log off. Its not worth your time, your just going to die. Both have to sleep and or meditate for extended periods, both VERY vulnerable when doing this. I already alluded to ways to sort of 'slow' a trackers progress. You head west of val then north through the water. Well, there is only a couple of pieces of land nearby. One of them is very close. Go there first, no tracks, right, head the other way as they'd have to have went there. As you never saw them cross back on their path. No tracks on the island? Oh, they must have recalled. Dependant on their temple, worst case scenario it may take you 3 to 4 ticks to get to their temple.
So, you get to their temple, pick up the scent again. Of course, they are going to be running because they are severely wounded or in some way disabled, otherwise they'd just be fighting wouldn't they, so no doubt they need some sleep or rest. You don't fully rest yourself in 3 or 4 hours, let me tell you that, so there they are again, all over your arsehole, walk in on you sleeping. I consider this ability better then any qclass/cabal ability that is similar in effect. It is ten times harder to get someone from awful to dead, then from perfect to awful (generally, of course there are exceptions). This makes this skill 10x better then a combat ability.
I have not been killed by any of these combos, so it isn't an 'I died, wah wah'. More so a listing of observations I've noticed, and thought to myself 'surely not'.
I don't think assassination is OP. Getting assassnated within 5 minutes of login is either an exaggeration or the victim logged in to a main city and just wandered around.
- If it were toned I'd say that loging out should instantly clear your progress. I believe it is possile to build up a study on someone over a series of connections and days. Maybe that explains the "I logged in and got assassinated right away" happening.
All the problems you listed regarding the tracking ranger were problems that arise when you are trying to escape. They are...trackers. If you are beating them, that skill will not help them worth a damn. That is the other side of the coin.
- If it were to be toned I'd say maybe lessen the duration of the track from flying people and sneaking races/classes. Some people have already given good advice for escaping if you are near death. (Doubling back works, teleporting is key too.)
Inmek only needed 3-4 ticks to assassinate someone. I can get that many from a single strangle. If they attacked my altar they were an idiot. If they fought cabal warfare against someone else' date=' you can kiss your wares goodbye if you weren't battling with li. If they tried fighting me, lol good luck with that if you couldn't bashlock me you had nearly zero change of beating me before I got the study. Sometimes I'd come out of hiding about 5-7 seconds before the tick just to get a study in then go back into hiding whereas they would think I came out to fight. That was so gay hence the reason you haven't seen me as assassin ninja let alone a ninja period in awhile. Ironically I see this as the only way to combat there bane classes. Even if this tactic was weakened or taken away how would ninjas then fair against them? i.e. saders/vamps or certain syndie/knight/trib combos. They have probably the most unfair chance against their banes then the other classes do. Who wants to play a class with virtually no chance against another? This ninja problem is a difficult one to face.[/quote']
Barnok/Moriath always gave me a decent run for my money as a vampire. I dont think I died to either of them, but I also only got a handful of kills Certain combos are MEANT to be the bane of hidden classes, its been their age long bane. It should be an uphill battle. Ninjas as they are, IMHO, don't have a bane. I'd rather a ninja have to run from one or two classes, then EVERYONE have to run from a ninja. Infact, I suspect that any combo capable of detect hidden will die MORE to a ninja then ones who cant. Ones who can will have more confidence to TRY and fight them, whereas, those without detect hidden will not even bother and just run off into hiding. Like you said, you went visible to lure them in to try and fight. Now, someone who can see you ALL the time is constantly lured. As I've already said, its very very very easy to dance around an area for more then 5-6 hrs and not get tagged. VERY easy. Infact, I put out a challenge for anyone to catch me whilst trying to elude someone. I'll eat my words if caught. To this point, even in my rustiness, I've never been brought into combat unless I was seeking the person. I've also not been able to catch anyone who is running circles in an area. As I've said, if you gave my giant sized undead warrior detect hidden, I still wouldn't bother with a ninja who had any skills at all.
I don't think assassination is OP. Getting assassnated within 5 minutes of login is either an exaggeration or the victim logged in to a main city and just wandered around.
- If it were toned I'd say that loging out should instantly clear your progress. I believe it is possile to build up a study on someone over a series of connections and days. Maybe that explains the "I logged in and got assassinated right away" happening.
All the problems you listed regarding the tracking ranger were problems that arise when you are trying to escape. They are...trackers. If you are beating them, that skill will not help them worth a damn. That is the other side of the coin.
- If it were to be toned I'd say maybe lessen the duration of the track from flying people and sneaking races/classes. Some people have already given good advice for escaping if you are near death. (Doubling back works, teleporting is key too.)
I am not exaggerating, if you have a good read, people who have PLAYED ninjas have said they were able to assassinate someone after 3-4 ticks.
a) this didn't happen. They logged in, were fighting someone West of Val Miran, and into the dune sea. Ninja peeked in a few times over the period of about 6 (in game)hours, next minute I see their PK flag gone, I ask them what the hell happened and to my disbelief, they said they were assassinated. I was present the entire time. It all happened within about 5 minutes. I gawked in disbelief. I asked 'How the hell' and got told by said person that it only takes 3 or 4 hours to have one completely studied. 95% chance of an insta kill is rediculous. I dare say a SINGLE hour of study will about 10-15 times more likelyhood to assassinate someone then the chance of cleaving someone in half with the old DK's, which was, once again, considered OP and changed.
tracking rangers : so what your saying is that I get decked out on my track ranger, and very few people will have a chance (minus an equally decked giant warrior). Fighting a decked opponent with only mediocre equipment shouldn't be an INSTANT death wish. It should be an uphill struggle, and it already is. However, if you remove the ability to flee and rest, you don't even get a second chance at trying a different tactic, or trying to wear the ranger down. You've raised some valid suggestions, how about track doesn't work at all for a flying foe, hell, I am almost sure it doesn't work in flying areas. Whats the difference. Doubling back and teleporting are both 'I want to get dead' ideas. Anyone who can track well (which isn't rocket science) wont let you get a couple of areas to head, and give you time to 'double back' (which will require running straight past the path they are taking). You know what, your better off just running straight ahead, and hoping they run out of MV before you do, because doubling back (and running out of MV) would be the only situations that'd would get me killed. Oh, and teleporting. I don't even bother practicing it, nor would I ever buy pills. I still see people use it though, and end up dead more often then not. I'd rather keep running and have a 90% chance of living (unless either of the aforementioned things happen) then teleporting and having a 50% chance of dying. Guess what happens then, you have to temple sit, which gets you dead at least one more time, and a high likelyhood someone (probably some lvl 15 bloke) is going to get all your gear too.
I don't know exactly what has changed in the last 5 years, but having a chat to people and I have heard that even vampires have had a visit by the gimp stick. Why, I don't really know, I used to be able to own decked vampires with very little gear on even non-giant warriors. They would probably only really have 3 or so skills that I'd call super, some of these only applicable in certain situations or have reasonably long cooldowns. Apart from this, they are much like a ranger. Just without camo, pets, archery, track, herb, dual parry and with the hugest vulnerability on earth (as long with a regular vuln) to boot.
Melee damage APPEARS to have been toned since I left yet classes are getting unblockable damage (with nice add on effects) that does more damage then melee attacks in general.
I seem to remember Calandra telling me he'd study someone, they'd log off and he'd wait for them to pop back on to off 'em. I'm not sure if that is my mind pulling a Mya or if I remembered it correctly. But, either way..
Aulian, dunno what to say, I guess. I wish I could tell you that you were wrong but I've got no further basis to argue that Assassinate isn't cheap aside from me just not thinking so. I'm gonna back outta this one- facts are needed here, not opinions and you've got the right of way with more experience. 
But, I will say I'm keeping tabs on this thread and anyone that brags or laughs about two or three rounding someone, or someone getting one or two rounded is gonna get thrown a link back here. In my mind they're the same thing: The few times I've been one to three rounded I've not seen the person coming, didn't know they were on, or they pulled a nasty vuln on me.
There was a time I (maybe it was WC? Memory thing again) got Charge killed by a Mino. The charge killed him flat out. He was a Drow Necro, so the class thing was the deciding factor there and the minotaur was wearing two axes, and it was before 50 (I think around 35?) but it was funny none the less... where the hell am I going with this?
a-g
I dunno A-G. But 10 years ago isn't now 
If it was, a-g would still be living with his first wife Ted, who eats cheetos naked in his living room/kitchen while watching a-g do the dishes in a thong.