Charmed pets for DKs

Tassin, I'm calling you (and anyone else who said they've gotten assassinations in 3-4 ticks) out.

I've played my fair share of falcon eye ninjas as well, and that's a flat out lie. With study MASTERED it takes at least 4-5 ticks to actually do the studying. It takes another 7-8 ticks of meditation to get their soul bearing your mark.

Tassin, Inmek did his job well, but he certainly was not the best ninja to ever grace Aabahran's presence.

LOL. Mudder is right, you really do only strengthen our arguments. It only takes as little 3 ticks to get a near full study on some. The meditative time doesn't matter, it can be done anywhere regardless of where your opponent is. And again you're right Inmek was not the best ninja, he was just some bum I wanted to test the ninjitsu with, he didn't have any rp I didn't even care about him but somehow I could beat the strongest pk'ers around with nearly no effort. -shrug- The ease of his success really sickens me and you bringing this to our attention only further strengthens my argument.

I think some of you overestimate the role that hitroll plays in an assassinate. Hitroll is only one of a lot of factors' date=' and not necessarily meant to be the most prominent one.[/quote']

I reread some of this thread and it looks like we've been referencing quite a bit of other factors. Size, haste, ac, time, whether the opponent was awake had the ability to see, even saves.

Barnok/Moriath always gave me a decent run for my money as a vampire. I dont think I died to either of them, but I also only got a handful of kills Certain combos are MEANT to be the bane of hidden classes, its been their age long bane. It should be an uphill battle. Ninjas as they are, IMHO, don't have a bane. I'd rather a ninja have to run from one or two classes, then EVERYONE have to run from a ninja. Infact, I suspect that any combo capable of detect hidden will die MORE to a ninja then ones who cant. Ones who can will have more confidence to TRY and fight them, whereas, those without detect hidden will not even bother and just run off into hiding. Like you said, you went visible to lure them in to try and fight. Now, someone who can see you ALL the time is constantly lured. As I've already said, its very very very easy to dance around an area for more then 5-6 hrs and not get tagged. VERY easy. Infact, I put out a challenge for anyone to catch me whilst trying to elude someone. I'll eat my words if caught. To this point, even in my rustiness, I've never been brought into combat unless I was seeking the person. I've also not been able to catch anyone who is running circles in an area. As I've said, if you gave my giant sized undead warrior detect hidden, I still wouldn't bother with a ninja who had any skills at all.

Well since that time ninjas have probably experienced the most toning of any other class. So comparing ninjas to vamp battles of that time would be quite different than the time we're in now.

In a way you're kinda right though about vamps being the bane of ninjas. It can be argued that something is supposed to be the bane of something else but at what point do we stop and realize that maybe that bane now has too many advantages over said class. Ever try fighting an elder vamp as an assassin ninja? But yes I realize that maybe it was a mistake to just focus on assassination or melee and they should concentrate on both. That was just one example. Yes I have heard that in one situation a ninja **nearly **outmelee'd a vamp. But its very hard for me to believe it was under decently normal circumstances. It is more legend then common occurence unless I have been misinformed? When I played my sader I felt very bad for each ninja I fought against, it was not fair at all they stood no chance against me and I could feel that someone was just wrong about it. As dey always preaches, the class shoudn't be seen as only assassin or melee but as a class capable of using both to combat there weaknesses and I **however can admit **I contradict myself as falcon eye is probably the only thing that can give them a chance against those classes and taking it away would only make matters worse in these situations.

I had more than "no chance" against Arvelo with Grawrer =O)

I got reamed constantly by Valadar though and I was a pure combat ninja.

I killed him once, but he had no sanc, that's how to out melee a vampire, and it was still too close for comfort.

I disagree entirely that taking away falcon eye weakens ninjas in any way shape or form.

A ninja killed Sirican in straight up melee. Sirican was wielding a polearm, hasted, and had 80/65 hit/dam.

A ninja CAN outmelee a Vampire. I was shocked and disturbed as hell when I realized this the hard way.

Unless by weakening you mean they can no longer assassinate with ease.

In regards to Dumela, Rykar didn't take falcon eye, I personally don't like it. I remember the couple times Dumela was assassianted quickly, I got one or two good studies on him. My hit was 60+ if I remember, I think I was wielding Kreyis, and I'm fairly certain everytime I went in on Dumela, it was soul bears mark. I strangled Dumela a couple times. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's a failure like no tomorrow. With Vanicus, I had a guy slept, blind, I was hasted, 60+ hit, full study and I still failed.

As to archer, I've noticed fired weapons lag is almost nonexistent. It seems very easy to just keep running away and shooting at a person and it's very hard to catch up to them to fight them. Maybe give it a round lag or a little longer? And I also agree with Pali, I miss the days of 15 room studies, studying through zones. What's the deal with that anyway?

I had a huge reply written (started it this morning before work FFS) and its disappeared.

Had a basic jist to it.

Mainly it was that obviously people just dont quite understand the point I am getting at. Its not that you cannot evade a ninja and not get assassinated, there area hundred ways to this, it was the point that IF you need to fight a ninja (or even want to) which for many many reasons may be the case, it is very easy for them to get you fully studied, and have a 95% chance of landing an instakill on you. IMHO this is excessive. 4 or 5 hours of even TRYING to land a blow on someone is not very unrealistic, especially if they are TRYING to dance around you. Take Rheydin for example. I could dance around there all day in study range and not take a hit. You'd have just as much luck standing still and spamming a skill then trying to chase someone. Ie, near on zero.

We keep bringing up vampires. One class. I've already said that I'd be very hesitant to fight a decently played ninja with a vampire. On the other hand, if I was a ninja, I wouldn't hesitate to attempt to kill anyone, including above mentioned class.

Wish I had time to roll one up and find out first hand. I am only using second hand info & info I have gathered from fighting ninjas.

Tetsunai got 'soul bears your mark' on Azzy, and this was prior to falcon eye. I had to bail so I didn't get assassinated. This was in Val Miran, and for the hell of me, I couldnt catch him. I am not particularly slow, and I think at least 80% of players would have the speed and ability of Tet nowadays. Perhaps in the days where everyone was a newb, assassinate wasn't such a deathwish. Now, seeing as 90% of the playerbase is a veteran, it makes it ALOT more powerful, to the point where I would consider it unfair.

I've brought this fairly off topic, perhaps I should create my own thread re: asassinate, track & archery.

RE Mudder: That was one ninja who, if I can guess who you're talking about correctly, had the perfect race, subcabal, and ninja lore to be an uber tank, especially against a vampire. They were played by a very skilled player, and outmeleed a LOT of people that a ninja in another situation would not fare as well against.

That is not, however, the point of a ninja. The ninja should not be straight up outmeleeing, for example, a fully trained, decked warrior. They should have to be using other skills, such as strangle/blind/poison, shurikens, appropriate fired weapons, if they want to win a melee fight.

RE Tassin: I don't see what I said as strengthening your argument. If someone is sitting in the same place for even 4-5 ticks (I don't believe that a 3 tick study is possible), and not realizing that there is a ninja with them, then there's a problem. That person is either fighting someone else, or being dumb. Which means in the first case, it's a question of whether or not the person behind the ninja has any class, and in the second it's a question of the player's competence at staying alive.

If you have easy targets, and get a lot of easy assassinates, then of course it's going to appear wonderfully easy and even overpowered. But with my ninjas, there were some assassinations that I worked my *** off for, that required REAL LIFE days to accomplish - some examples include Brendyn (Warmongrel) and Norgrot (Mindflayer?).

To summarize, yes, a good assassinate ninja is not HARD to play. It requires some general tactics, some preparation, and an appropriate target. However, to play a GREAT assassinate ninja involves significant preparation, strong tactical ability, and interminable patience.

My ninja Pheredin was an example of the first. Yes, I managed to take down a couple of the stronger-PKers (much like Inmek). Yes, I made it look relatively easy, as any vet with a falcon eye ninja can do. But I also got caught red-handed a lot, and was never the person that made people avoid cities, regardless of whether or not they thought I was logged on. It takes a strong ninja, who is never seen except when delivering a killing blow, to instill that kind of fear. It takes a special kind of player with all the skills necessary to play an assassinate ninja to that degree, and there have only been two or three in FL's history. Overall, I'd say that's not a bad track record, and proof that assassinate is not overpowered, even when coupled with Falcon Eye.

Hell, I support keeping Falcon Eye the way it is, solely so people will die more and grow out of the "bitch-when-you-die" phase faster.

In regards to Dumela, Rykar didn't take falcon eye, I personally don't like it. I remember the couple times Dumela was assassianted quickly, I got one or two good studies on him. My hit was 60+ if I remember, I think I was wielding Kreyis, and I'm fairly certain everytime I went in on Dumela, it was soul bears mark. I strangled Dumela a couple times. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's a failure like no tomorrow. With Vanicus, I had a guy slept, blind, I was hasted, 60+ hit, full study and I still failed.

As to archer, I've noticed fired weapons lag is almost nonexistent. It seems very easy to just keep running away and shooting at a person and it's very hard to catch up to them to fight them. Maybe give it a round lag or a little longer? And I also agree with Pali, I miss the days of 15 room studies, studying through zones. What's the deal with that anyway?

There is a ceiling on the chance you'll land it, you obviously just got that 1/20 that is bound to fail.

AFAIK, the modifiers for study are all positive ones almost and pretty much entirely determined by the assassin. I could be wrong, but basically, this means no matter how you try to equip or defend yourself as the other player, you're basically **** out of luck.

re: Evangelion - dude, does your ninja not have legs? Is he not allowed to move? The target doesn't have to be standing still to get studied, nor does the assassin have to be hidden. And I am in no form bitching because I have died. I have never ever been assassinated. The three things I mentioned, I mentioned because I see fundamental flaws in their workings.

These things probably were balanced once upon a time, however, over time, and with a vast improvement of the PK skills of the playerbase, some skills have gotten rather out of control. Different skills garner different improvements with improvement of the player. Some to the point where they almost become godlike. 90% of the playerbase now is a skilled PK'er, which makes this a greater issue, previously one or two people may have completely owned with a combo. Now, the number is much more. Take for instance parry, it works exactly the same whether you wicked at PK or completely suck, on the other hand, there are other skills (ie, assassinate, track) that with an increase in player skill, become VERY VERY VERY powerful.

I don't know whether that's entirely true, Tater.

I believe that haste, for example, can reduce a ninja's chance to assassinate if they are unhasted, or nullify the benefits of their haste if they are.

I had more than "no chance" against Arvelo with Grawrer =O)

I got reamed constantly by Valadar though and I was a pure combat ninja.

I killed him once, but he had no sanc, that's how to out melee a vampire, and it was still too close for comfort.

Well I seem to remember sanc playing a big part as I was inductee at the time getting hammered left and right. Plus I had no mental saves to prevent your sleepy arrows and constant murders and auto throws. Not to mention I was just starting to figure the class out, yet Arvelo still had a winning record against Grawrer. Right?

A ninja killed Sirican in straight up melee. Sirican was wielding a polearm, hasted, and had 80/65 hit/dam.

A ninja CAN outmelee a Vampire. I was shocked and disturbed as hell when I realized this the hard way.QUOTE]

I'd like to see that battle as its hard to believe. Even so it is more legend then rare occurence. This can be compared to our old age debate of what is considered underpowered. Yes despiser can probably own with that faerie zerk but if the majority of players cannot then...

Mudder also forgot to add that said ninja was a feral, was in Watcher, was probably hasted, and was part of the Stalker sub cabal in question, and took the melee side of ninjas.

Very viable in my opinion.

I don't know whether that's entirely true, Tater.

I believe that haste, for example, can reduce a ninja's chance to assassinate if they are unhasted, or nullify the benefits of their haste if they are.

You are absolutely incorrect, unless things have changed. It never used to be the case.

Either way, that point is null and void, unless you are a battlemage, there are very few items that allow you haste, and even then, its only for a very short amount of time and have a reasonably long cooldown, they really are only useful for offense, are uesless in defense where you cannot determine when the battle is going to begin. Like you are going to know that a ninja is just going to pop up at that moment and assassinate you.

I've love to hear some educated reasoning against my opinion, rather than just "its not OP" or "leave it as is, helps people harden the $*(! up"

I am rather calculated and scientific type of person and like to give reasoning and examples for my opinion.

As an aside on the whole raise in power of skills as player skills increases. This can also have an inverse effect. On Azzy, I used to ream people alot. This is because they did not know what I was capable of. Now everyone knows what Vampires are capable of. This makes them only 30% as effective as they used to be, IMHO. As such, some classes and gain and lose power due to player/opponent skill levels.

Yes. Feral/Ninja/Stalker vs. Vampire/Reaver

My cabal gave me significant abilities and I would say made our relative cabal abilities negated eachother.

Tass, you don't believe it happened? I played Sirican, why would I want to even admit losing to a ninja?

EDIT: Agreed on Vamps being weaker due to player knowledge. I've suggested long ago that vamps get revamp.

RE Tassin: I don't see what I said as strengthening your argument. If someone is sitting in the same place for even 4-5 ticks (I don't believe that a 3 tick study is possible)' date=' and not realizing that there is a ninja with them, then there's a problem. That person is either fighting someone else, or being dumb. Which means in the first case, it's a question of whether or not the person behind the ninja has any class, and in the second it's a question of the player's competence at staying alive..[/quote']

You don't believe me? I'm sorry you feel that way, I've never purposefully lied nor put our information that wasn't true unless I'd say it in question. I have a question for you? What if you're fighting my ninja and I enter your area 5-7 seconds before the tick ends. I have a huge chance to get that study in before you can get to me to do anything about it or get out of my range before I flee back to hide. Would you say you were being dumb in that case?

If you have easy targets' date=' and get a lot of easy assassinates, then of course it's going to appear wonderfully easy and even overpowered. But with my ninjas, there were some assassinations that I worked my *** off for, that required REAL LIFE days to accomplish - some examples include Brendyn (Warmongrel) and Norgrot (Mindflayer?)..[/quote']

True that. But my experiences were a bit different. Only times I remember working my *** off for was against a gating eq hoarding druid that logged in only twice a month, Morchial and Suunmar that both shared a couple of similar buffs. 3 hard kills, compared to all the other easy kills I got seems a bit unbalanced. So I must say in **my **experience it was mostly wonderfully easy.

My ninja Pheredin was an example of the first. Yes' date=' I managed to take down a couple of the stronger-PKers (much like Inmek). Yes, I made it look relatively easy, as any vet with a falcon eye ninja can do. But I also got caught red-handed a lot, and was never the person that made people avoid cities, regardless of whether or not they thought I was logged on. It takes a strong ninja, who is never seen except when delivering a killing blow, to instill that kind of fear. It takes a special kind of player with all the skills necessary to play an assassinate ninja to that degree, and there have only been two or three in FL's history. Overall, I'd say that's not a bad track record, and proof that assassinate is not overpowered, even when coupled with Falcon Eye..[/quote']

I'm sorry I fail to see your proof. There could've been many reasons that there have been few of these ninjas in fl's history. The boringness of the study skill, I bet is the biggest reason.

Hell' date=' I support keeping Falcon Eye the way it is, solely so people will die more and grow out of the "bitch-when-you-die" phase faster.[/quote']

Isn't this the same reason why we're instituting the two tiered system Because of a huge loss of our playerbase because of an attitude like this?

A ninja killed Sirican in straight up melee. Sirican was wielding a polearm, hasted, and had 80/65 hit/dam.

A ninja CAN outmelee a Vampire. I was shocked and disturbed as hell when I realized this the hard way.QUOTE]

I'd like to see that battle as its hard to believe. Even so it is more legend then rare occurence. This can be compared to our old age debate of what is considered underpowered. Yes despiser can probably own with that faerie zerk but if the majority of players cannot then...

I consider 75% of current players to have the skill the despiser I knew had.

I actually had a by far positive kill to death ratio against him. He wasn't that godlike. He was a big player of the power combo game though. Almost anything he rolled was a power combo, he knew what to pick and why.

You know Loucheran. The only person I ever had issues in meelee against was Moriath. I was a decked out Knight leader (overpowered slith with all the bells and whistles), and still he managed to make me run more then once.

Ninjas do have ALOT of meelee viability. And this was even before fired weapons.

Yes. Feral/Ninja/Stalker vs. Vampire/Reaver

Tass, you don't believe it happened? I played Sirican, why would I want to even admit losing to a ninja?

No no I I do believe it happened. But other factors could've contributed to it reaching the outcome that it did that I'd like to know about. It sounding like it came from that very same ninja we've been talking about is one of them.

It was Rhazkahlor(sp?) before he was Elder.

It was because he quickly used nerve/caltraps and proceeded to mess me up. He managed to do it while I was trying to laglock him. Lol.

Well I seem to remember sanc playing a big part as I was inductee at the time getting hammered left and right. Plus I had no mental saves to prevent your sleepy arrows and constant murders and auto throws. Not to mention I was just starting to figure the class out' date=' yet Arvelo still had a winning record against Grawrer. Right?[/quote']

You did have a winning record, yes, and I did not expect to even beat you once. We did have some close duels before you were inducted to WM too, when you did use sanc. I only brought it up cuz you said ninjas had no chance vs a 'sader. But ninjas arent as great at melee as some of you make them out to be, they really have to work hard at it.

Re: Mudder

Now that caltraps has been "fixed" I imagine your vamp would not have been beaten the same way. And the watcher ability that helped ferals with their vuln has also been changed since then perhaps, another possible factor in the loss.