a Warning!! (caution..rant..)

[Pali]

I think the greatest problem regarding removing the who list is the incredibly big size of this mud compared to the fairly small pbase of it. You want to totally kill the likelihood of interacting with another player, that's the way to do it. At least with the who list, a person's presence is felt... you know you're not alone playing the game, even if you're not interacting with them.

[The Wayward Knight]

First off, My current hasn't attacked anyone based on align. AND has made a point of being quite active vocally with everyone he fights/meets/walks past/or has to chase down just to rp

Unless things have changed drastically since I left, you're either going to end up losing interest in your character, or hating other players so forcefully you want to do something else.

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

You truly want people to buy the newb arguement? I think most are afraid to give up something they're extremely used to and something that helps them easily know who's online to try and kill. And also something they use to bend the rules to their liking.

[corpsestomp]

I'll be honest. If the who list was taken out of the game, I don't think I'd play anymore. It's taken my current lowbie a week or more to get to level 20, and whenever I've been on I've been either looking for a group, doing quests or killing stuff alone. Granted, I am a mage, but still, taking out the who list means everyone I could have possibly hunted with, I have to track down and try to talk to. Not only that, but if I'm in their PK range, they aren't going to let me just walk up to them.

[Aeva]

You truly want people to buy the newb arguement? I think most are afraid to give up something they're extremely used to and something that helps them easily know who's online to try and kill. And also something they use to bend the rules to their liking.

genius award of the decade

try playing a large area/small pbase mud without a who list (as pali said).

also, consider that the rules youre talking about for occ were made knowing that this mud, and others using the same code, has certain functions that were known when the rule was made. maybe youre bending rules the other direction (extremism?)

[Chief]

Sorry but the game needs OOC commands to function properly, I can tell you for sure that if you took away the who list or group list, I would leave this game in a bink.

[Aulian]

I could know at the very least you are a Fire Giant.

Probably the fact that they are big and a flaming mass of inferno could give what away too... maybe.

[Deykari]

Probably the fact that they are big and a flaming mass of inferno could give what away too... maybe.

What with the fact that there are no descriptive guidelines for Fire Giants, we have no idea what the 'norm' Fire Giant looks like.

A huge hulking figure with gray skin and piercing red eyes? Could be Fire Giant, Stone Giant, Storm Giant…

Dey

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

genius award of the decade

Way to integrate yourself into the discussion *******.

also' date=' consider that the rules youre talking about for occ were made knowing that this mud, and others using the same code, has certain functions that were known when the rule was made. maybe youre bending rules the other direction (extremism?)[/quote']

What a great opportunity to make our world unique. You actually have to EXPLORE, SEARCH, SPEAK to others, LOOK and use the whole world.

As for the rest. So be it. As has so many offers for change over the years. The who list is there for one reason and one reason only, to see who's online to know who you can kill and to know who can give you protection. There is no other argument any of you can make that will be valid.

In all my dealings with newbies they're too intimidated to just ask by looking at the who list. More often then not I notice a handful of their corpses so I then offer assistance. Something they would not have gotten by using the who list because everyone on the damn mud is too concerned with gathering eq and then using the who list to go kill someone.

Let the place continue to stagnate.

[Kyzarius]

your change would completly alienate ANY newbie.

You think its hard for new players to survive/find groups/learn eq now??

Imagine trying to survive this mud, and learn how to get places when you cant even find someone to send a tell to for hunting. Or to ask if they will help with this or that.

No, if you ever run a large deathmatch map in with a few players you always have the same problem. You never find anyone. Imagine trying to get a group for hunting when you have to physically pass them on th street.

No the idea looks beneficial at first, but under closer examination removing the who list would alienate to many new players and make it to difficult to level.

The concept that people are using the who list to go kill someone is a farse. The who list doesnt help you to kill anyone. Especially now that "concealed" players are working properly. The who list might tell you who is about, but it does NOTHING in revealing their location to you. The best ways to find someone is still and has always been to search every zone or send tells and try to get some kind of interaction going.

As far as your "dealings with newbies" I find that hard to swallow. I end up helping newbies all the time most often from a tell asking for help. Removing the who list would just make people who are new feel blinded.

so..

Pro's:

1, you get more realistic pk

I tried hard but couldnt even think of a second pro...

Con's:

1, you would get LESS interactions from having to find people

2, newbies would be alienated by the even steeper learning curve

3, it would become near impossible to get a group together for anything.

4, people would always feel alone, and would never think there is anyone on...an empty feeling environment quickly becomes what it feels like.

5, in the end the vets would seperate more from the novice/newer players as they know where everything is and it would become harder to pass this knowledge on via grouping for eq, leveling in groups, and lvl 50 runs for eq.

[Deykari]

Way to integrate yourself into the discussion *******.

What a great opportunity to make our world unique. You actually have to EXPLORE, SEARCH, SPEAK to others, LOOK and use the whole world.

As for the rest. So be it. As has so many offers for change over the years. The who list is there for one reason and one reason only, to see who's online to know who you can kill and to know who can give you protection. There is no other argument any of you can make that will be valid.

In all my dealings with newbies they're too intimidated to just ask by looking at the who list. More often then not I notice a handful of their corpses so I then offer assistance. Something they would not have gotten by using the who list because everyone on the damn mud is too concerned with gathering eq and then using the who list to go kill someone.

Let the place continue to stagnate.

The who list helps facilitate roleplay as much as it does PK. Knowing who is online allows you to interact with people without being in the same room as them, allowing people to organise meet-ups and chat through tells. Whilst removing the who list may also facilitate roleplay in the sense that people have to interact with each other to find out more about them, it’s going to make it much harder to do that when you cannot see who is online and the only way of finding people is by where.

Like others have said, having the who list provides a way of players seeing who is online and who they can interact with, be it roleplay or PK. It can also be perfectly justified by other means.

It’s this what I disagree with:

The who list is there for one reason and one reason only, to see who's online to know who you can kill and to know who can give you protection. There is no other argument any of you can make that will be valid.

I don’t mean this to sound like an ***, but I posted a counter-argument in regards to removing the who list and I haven’t seen its points challenged. I'm not trying to say I am right, simply I believe the existence of the who list can be justified both ICly and OOCly, just as you believe removing it can be justified in both respects, but you haven't challenged my reasons, just said any argument that opposes yours is invalid. It is an OPINION – one person believes one thing is better for the MUD, one person believes something else is better. Neither of us are right or wrong, it is simply for the people who manage the game to run it as they want, understanding that no matter what changes, there will be people that approve and people that don't. Because you disagree with an argument, does not make it invalid.

Just my thoughts,

Dey

[Aeva]

Let the place continue to stagnate.

sorry, but if you cant see just how stupid your suggestion is, i dont know what to tell you. want this mud to stagnate? take out the who list

in fact, someone should put up a port copy without a who list just for this guy to try, ehl oh ehl. have fun exploring.

[Deykari]

sorry, but if you cant see just how stupid your suggestion is, i dont know what to tell you. want this mud to stagnate? take out the who list

in fact, someone should put up a port copy without a who list just for this guy to try, ehl oh ehl

I can see the point he’s getting at, and he is right – removing the who list will make things slightly more realistic, it will mean that interaction MUST take place between characters a lot more often before PK happens (albeit with the side affect of possibly making it harder to interact in the first place) and it will mean that people must get off their *** and go to hunting places to find hunters and not just sit about sending tells, amongst other things.

The question is, is that a good thing? Who says forming hunting parties by sending tells is a bad thing? Who says that knowing that Johnathon Smasher is an Evil Fire Giant just from the who list is a bad thing? It’s personal opinion at the end of the day, and I get the feeling that removing the who list is a change that would appeal only to a niche. Whilst that’s not necessarily a bad thing, it will please the niche and displease the rest. At the end of the day, it would be upto the Imms to decide whether having no who list is the direction they want to take the MUD, as it is their MUD ultimately.

No need for the debate to get heated with insults slung about, remember that the arguments for and against are OPINION.

Dey

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

sorry' date=' but if you cant see just how stupid your suggestion is, i dont know what to tell you. want this mud to stagnate? take out the who list [/quote']

Oh so the mud isn't stagnant? So what do you call Malch's post to generate interest in the mud? Just last week I assisted a newbie who had no idea to use tells and had been sitting at the edge of Drkshtyre for nearly an hour after having died several times within. He didn't once use the who list. I think you're all equating your use of the who list, assuming that newbs will use it just as much.

in fact' date=' someone should put up a port copy without a who list just for this guy to try, ehl oh ehl. have fun exploring.[/quote']

I have a copy

Dey, you're right valid points. However, IMO they're intrusive, I hate getting tells out of the blue from someone I do not know. For the rest, I think it would open brand new avenues in interaction. Stories from your fellows on other characters to know 'who' they are. Bio and looking at people to figure out what race they are.

And Aeva, these are my opinions. Otherwise we'll just call each other stupid all day.

[Deykari]

Dey' date=' you're right valid points. However, IMO they're intrusive, I hate getting tells out of the blue from someone I do not know. For the rest, I think it would open brand new avenues in interaction. Stories from your fellows on other characters to know 'who' they are. Bio and looking at people to figure out what race they are.[/quote']

Whilst I’m not against knowing nothing/little about other players in the MUD outside of interacting with them or them interacting with the world (a global note for example), it’s the idea of having no idea who is online that I don’t like, an OOC tool that I feel is very necessary.

An alternative to removing the who list (which was discussed before I think) would be stripping everything from the who list and just leaving names. That could still be justified ICly (people knowing OF the more famous people in the realms [our characters] but not knowing anything about them at first) but would also mean that players wouldn’t just know that player X was a Drow Invoker, etc.

It has its negatives too, but it’s something I think would be more viable a change than simply removing the who list completely. I still don’t agree with changing the who list at all, I’m just throwing this out there.

Dey

[Guest emp_newb]

You all need to chill out man. There is no reason to go biting peoples damn heads off over stupid, meaningless crap. I realize your intentions where good, but the fact remains the who list is an a requirement for this game.

Who pk

Who group

Who

So on and so forth. taking this out IMHO would be shooting yourself in the face because you couldn't shave. It does take away the need to shave, but it is a REALLY dumb way to do it.

[Deykari]

So on and so forth. taking this out IMHO would be shooting yourself in the face because you couldn't shave. It does take away the need to shave, but it is a REALLY dumb way to do it.

Rofl, that made me laugh.

Dey

[Guest emp_newb]

Dead Voodoo Doll:

Lowbies trying to interact with random people more often than not are them trying to RP, and if your saying you get pissed when people wanna RP maybe Godwars type is more fitted for you. Personally I LOVE hasing over with lowbie characters, giving them a chance to get themselves to get int othe world and larger rp plot. I usually tell them I don't gather wares, or give directions because it hurts you more than it help.s

[Aeva]

well, we should probably take out the "where" command, as well, since you cant actually see that far unobstructed in about 99% of the mud. on that note, having boundaries between areas becomes pointless.

notes should also be taken out. you should be forced to hand-deliver your messages to people.

lets take out the progress-bar thingy that tells you how far along you are towards improving a skill.

let's dispense lysergic acid diethylamide to each and every player via usb so that they can feel the immersion, man. FEEL the immersion.

let's all play a different game entirely.

it boggles my mind that a minority of people dislike something in such fundamental ways, then want to turn the thing upside down (to the chagrin of others) in order to make it how they believe it should be. a more simple solution: go play a different game.

[Pali]

let's dispense lysergic acid diethylamide to each and every player via usb so that they can feel the immersion' date=' man. FEEL the immersion.[/quote']

I like this idea.

I hate getting tells out of the blue from someone I do not know. For the rest' date=' I think it would open brand new avenues in interaction.[/quote']

Except that for a mud where 90% of the pbase knows better than to let someone they've never interacted with before just waltz up to them, tells out of the blue are the primary way to begin RP interactions.

Stories from your fellows on other characters to know 'who' they are. Bio and looking at people to figure out what race they are.

I have never met Barack Obama, or Osama bin Laden, or Vladimir Putin, but I can tell you what race each of them is, I can tell you what jobs they hold currently, I can give a basic idea of their backgrounds and past actions, and I could pick them out of a lineup. All from reading the newspaper. Why is it so unbelievable that FL would have something similar that informs you about things/people of note?

[Guest emp_newb]

Re Pali: Thats a big ten-four ten-four good buddy.

I agree with you on all points. People keep thinking like we are average people in the world. We are not, we are heroes to them, we are stories they have heard about. It is safe to assume if we are ANYWHERE populated at all, you can ask WHERE is, because people will have recognized them.

[Aeva]

dude: "blech, i hate oranges and they are stupid. let's genetically alter them to be more like apples."

chica: "why don't you just eat an apple?"

dude: "BECAUSE THATS NOT REALISTIC AND STUPID AND ITS MY OPINION OKAY??"

[Lexi]

Can we stop calling each other stupid and dumb?

EDIT:

To get back on topic, I really dislike when people ask questions such as 'How many years have you traveled?' or 'How many times did you spar your guildmaster?' or in some other subtle way trying to get a number for what rank my character is in a semi-OOC way.

[Aeva]

Can we stop calling each other stupid and dumb?

no, stupid!! i keed i keed

i agree with you on your dislike there. i honestly dont think there should be any problem with asking specifically what numbered rank one has attained in their guild. i mean, i think if i were in them military or something i would probably keep track of how many promotions i have gotten.

[Kyzarius]

Can we stop calling each other stupid and dumb?

EDIT:

To get back on topic, I really dislike when people ask questions such as 'How many years have you traveled?' or 'How many times did you spar your guildmaster?' or in some other subtle way trying to get a number for what rank my character is in a semi-OOC way.

I always just anwer with my current title.