Orodreth

[Zrothum]

Never said Paladins should get anything like prot shield. My suggestion was that they get a balance like save and then have it taken away so that the paladin has to flee and re-prepare. If they don't do it in time, they have effectively fallen off the horse and lose the skill.

-shrug- Im not gonna argue about it lol I just think it happens too often for it not deserve a little looking into...It's been said by many that warriors who can just bash bash bash bash and get away with it are really nothing positive to the game's PK environment. No class in the game should be able to outmelee a warrior who is dressed and prepared properly. Save maybe a blademaster these days....and even a vampire at times in a certain scenario. In any case, that's where my argument stemmed from.

Orodreth and Martineius existed a couple years apart real time. Mounted combat is not supposed to be protective shield. Paladins are not designed to have protective shield. That is basically what this boils down to. Nobody ever said paladins shouldn't ever get laglocked' date=' even though they rarely rarely do.[/quote']

[Twinblades713]

Keep high aff saves to protect from embers.

Aren't mal saves in charge of this?

[mya]

I wish...

Anyway i see Paladins more like Clerics than warriors. If they cannot cast in battle they are quite doomed.

Classes with no protective shield.

Paladins.

DK's.

Thieves

Ninjas

Rangers

Berserkers

Warriors

Thieves and ninjas, strike from shadows with surprise and can have a weakened enemy to fight.

Warriors, it's a question of Equipment...

DK's are more defensive than Paladins. (Yes they are.) And they can dish out quite some damage while Lag Locked. Pet, Malforms. And pet can break lock...

Veil, Dirt flee pet rescue...

Berserkers and Paladins are doomed....

It could be worse. You could be playing a Invocker and not getting a single command from fighting a monk.

[Deykari]

I've not talking about a single fight when I spoke of 200+hp per round. I said I have been bashlocked for 10+ rounds before. Again, I am not talking about one single fight against the same person. Despiser's FG warrior wore a staff and didnt do tons of damage compared to some other warrior's I've fought.

Let's assume I'm completely wrong, and you're right. 2-3 bashes against a warrior, which you have stated is more often than not. You will not outmelee a warrior who can put you through 4-6 rounds of combat. You won't attrition him either. The melee damage they are going to be dishing out to you is absurd in 6 rounds compared to the paladin. And ok, so you flee? Heaven forbid they get the jump on you and bash you again. If you fail the flee or anything.

I'm not saying Paladins should be impervious to bashing...I'm saying the mounted skill should do more than I've seen it do. -shrug-

Sorry if it came across as me calling you out as a liar or anything. It is perfectly possible to be lagged for a long time as a Paladin, and on numerous occasions too. However, if you're well enough equipped, and have taken the necessary precautions, you will increase your chances of getting out of the lock - it will break sooner or later, and you will be able to flee and cure, all being well. If you're being killed in few rounds in complete bashlocks the problem has got to be a difference in EQ that is allowing them to hit you much more often. With better EQ, you will last longer in combat and increase your chances of being able to live to see the lock broken, allowing you to flee. Magic strike further helps with this, and again there are a couple of little tricks to it that make it even more effective.

What I am trying to get at, is that laglocks are simply less effective against a paladin than other non-giant classes that have no protective shield or balance. Again, if the hard part with fighting a warrior is that they are really pumping out insane damage per round, then the problem isn't with being susceptible to big laglocks as they're going to tear you apart in a few rounds anyway. If it's the other way around, and you're just plain being lagged for a long time, then ask yourself -

- How is my AC? Am I affected by stoneskin, shield, flesh armor, armor and virtuous light? Heroism (which has a negative affect on AC)?

- Am I enlarged? Is my opponent enlarged? If you're fighting a giant lagger and you're enlarged, you stand a great chance of shrugging off most bashlocks very easily. If you're enlarged but your giant lagger foe is also enlarged then things get more hairy - but typically, unless you're unlucky (in 'general' terms, not 'game mechanics' terms, though luck does obviously help) then you shouldn't be getting laglocked for insane amounts of time. The problem is, that within that time, even if it is 6, 7 rounds - can you withstand the damage being dealt to you?

- What mount am I on? Not really important unless you're fighting Vampires - in that case, you should be on Goliath.

- On what terrain am I fighting my foe? Again, not really important unless it's a vampire you're fighting, in certain circumstances.

Bearing in mind that what I am talking about here is simply for -surviving- laglocks. I completely agree that trying to -kill- said lagger can be MUCH trickier, if they're a warrior anyway. In those cases, you have to go back to basics, ie. detect magic and catch them without sanctuary. You can attrition in two ways too - in terms of curing, and in terms of having your most important affect (sanctuary) there on tap as required. If you have the patience for it, you can waste their sources of sanctuary and leave them running about grabbing vials, but yeah, paladin VS warrior can be hard.

Dey

[Deykari]

You could apply that argument to any class without a form of lag immunity and it would still hold. So' date=' if paladins are gimped, by your logic, about 6 other classes are even more gimped.[/quote']

That's what I was trying to get at, though I suck at being clear in what I am trying to get across and it took you a few lines to get across what I still haven't quite managed to do in two huge posts.

Dey

[mya]

"ie. detect magic and catch them without sanctuary"

And this is why i hate sanctuary leaves....

Great post Dey, you really summed up the Pal difficulties on warriors.

[Pali]

Funny... on Ilendriel I fought every single Warmaster I encountered, most of them warriors or zerks, and not one of them managed to laglock me into a defeat in dozens of battles despite my ac never being below -300 and usually more around -250.

Go figure.

EDIT: Wait a minute... Mya... I have no idea what you are smoking, but DKs are in NO way more defensive than paladins.

[Twinblades713]

Brag about it why don't you.

[Zrothum]

Well all I can say is I wish I had your paladin back then. Cause mine did not have your luck.

Re Zhorkil about everyone else being gimped too per my argument:

Thieves can hide. Ninjas can hide. Both can put u to sleep and do MAJOR MAJOR damage to you (backstab, assassinate).

Warriors have the melee ability to get around being bashed/tripped.

Blademasters have balance.

Clerics, shaman, healers, invokers, have prot shield.

Rangers have pets to lag their opponents helping getting out of locks. as well as melee power to overcome lag locks.

DKs have an ability to negative bashlocks as well as charmies to help

Monks have balance

Everyone except paladins have something going for them to get around bashlocks. If a thief or ninja gets bashlocked its because they messed up/failed a skill. A decked thief who misses a blackjack will get bashlocked probably. But if he lands blackjack, puts a talisman on you, double backstab after ur sanc falls. You can bash him and hope u clear his 100% hp before he clears your ~50%. If you flee, u hit a chestbuster maybe. A ninja should be assassinating you and not opening himself up for bashlock.

Paladins ARE the quickest class to be tooled by a bashlock by that reasoning.

[Cephirus]

I find that the majority of it is play style. How you are equipped and prepared for the battle will greatly determine the outcome. Equipping yourself for -300 and lower ac causes you to sacrifice other things which may be of more benefit in a variety of situations, over the larger ac bonus.

[Pali]

Since when do DKs have an ability that negates bashlock? As far as I know, their magic strike works in a similar way to the paladin one... fires off a spell, but doesn't do anything about the bash or the lag caused by it.

And I'd argue it had less to do with luck than with proper planning. I fought enlarged whenever possible, was careful to keep my hp high... you have to expect that you're going to be taking bashes and being lagged, so you prep for it. You shouldn't be getting ridiculously outmelee'd every round (in my fight with Bathai, who was super-decked at the time, the most damage I took in a round was 150, and that happened ONCE the whole fight... most rounds were a far more manageable 50-80 damage, with numerous rounds where I evaded every attack from a warrior using weapons I didn't have) because you're a paladin... you've got good melee defenses, GREAT ones if you're an elf.

Frankly, I agree wholeheartedly with Dey and Eshaine... elf paladins are not easy at all to laglock, if they plan for the lag that they will be soaking. Yes, eventually you're going to have some unlucky fights where you take bash after bash after bash. You're also going to have very lucky fights where every bash misses you entirely. But most fights will fall into the middle, where you'll take a few bashes here and there, and you need to be ready for them else you're going to die.

And quite frankly, with heroism and their array of curatives... bashlock's the only way to kill a paladin who is playing it safe. That threat needs to be there.