Goods: The new endangered species

[goldbond]

are we going to have to make some new incentive to rolling goods? personally i won't roll one anytime soon, but when i have a 30ish evil with about 6 fellow evils in my PK, there's something seriously wrong here. there hasnt been a decent pinnacle crowd at any one time of NON-HEALER goods, quite literally, in a year. or more. i think mya's multi-year suggestion of giving paladins flail should be implemented. screw clerics anyway, they already are basically invincible. plus i played enough ancient Nintendo to know that knights knew how to use flails.

but really this MUD is thirsting for a crowd of strong goods. and yeah, yeah i know be careful what u wish for yadda yadda, but really this %90 evil/neutral is no fun anymore. i pine for the days of Corim and when you couldnt be an evil and go anywhere near civilization.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Sorry...can't play a good...90% of newbs are rollin' evils...someone has to walk them down the right path....

I also think the increasing decline in goods is because of the new resurrection...they don't get to live forever anymore. Which is fine with me.

[goldbond]

lolz

[English lad]

Scroll through enough threads and you'll see the same thing, over and over, from most of the 1.0 vets.

"Goods suck, i can't stand playing them, I don't like to be restricted in my

PK etc etc etc etc.."

The fact is that most of the really good pkers don't play goods on a regular basis. It made a HUGE difference to the balance of the playerbase when Orodreth was around. When one Vet chose to player a goodie rather than yet another badass Nexus or Syndicate. I play mainly goods, infact almost exclusively goods, and I fight myself constantly getting steam rolled - with just about every single one of my enemies decked down in dischord/factions/gear equipment. On the flip side when I do have some allies on, most of them (not all) are more newbie than me, and not even aware of those places.

Its almost like goods have become the newbie alignment. You start, play a good for a bit, get beat up a lot by decked vets playing their uber evil. You learn enough to get by and get a new set etc.. Then you roll up your evil once you've 'graduated' from playing goods.

I think not having a God of Good since Irumeru left hasn't helped either. We've had a few Knight IMMs who have done very well, but no overall divine figure for the Light.

[goldbond]

couldn't folk just decide to play goods with the same functional PK mentality of an evil in the sense of "kill everything that breathes" that's evil. there's nothing in the rulebook saying you have to chat your victim up or anything. i think paladins are weaker than many people want to admit, even though people here swear they are just fine or whatever. i can beat a decent paladin around and i'm horrible at PK.

yeah i think your observation about the lack of a strong, long-lasting good IMM affects things. Eshaine should go good, lawlz.

[Pali]

Paladins are not weak at all, Goldbond. Quite the opposite.

As for goods... sorry, I've been really busy IRL, haven't been able to work on my chars much.

[goldbond]

okay, just like when LA say that, i say, roll one please, and stomp the whole Game with it. that hasnt been done in 290 light years. you would not only be proving your point, but you would also be bringing back some sort of hope for goods.

[English lad]

Make a Faerie Invoker Pali - you know you want to.

[Pali]

Ilendriel I played for 170 hours. I never lost a single challenge match (edit: in case you don't believe me, in game type "record Merle", "record Fontan", "record Lmathr", "record Valadis", "record Bathai"...). I never took a pdeath except for once when my router got unplugged mid-fight (a fight I'd been winning, btw, against someone I'd sent running a dozen times). I was never super-decked, I was uncaballed... I still did just fine against those who were.

EDIT: As for the fae invoker, I want to try out something new instead.

EDIT #3: By the way, when L-A's saying that, it's in response to statements that a class is overpowered. I do not think paladins are overpowered. They are quite strong, but that's why they've got the highest exp pen of all the classes.

[goldbond]

a KNIGHT pali that romps real PKs, not challenges. but really i'm getting away from the essence of the problem- that people see good RP as wussie and such. it doesnt have to be. but even if it is, i'm sure there are ways to play goods that are pretty fun otherwise, although usually people tend to make an interesting good as so singleminded on killing evil that they end up wanting to be some contradictory demon as a consequence of their singular obsession, or something along that angle, similar to the Sirant story. we need a good, dedicated Good IMM, and a lot of avatars.

[goldbond]

and lately what people have been saying is quite the opposite, paladins are underpowered. either way, i want someone to kill this Game with one, just to swing the Game from the ever-present evil cleric. the only long lasting, dominating characters you see here now are evil clerics, an occasional good cleric, druids, and healers.

[Aulian]

the only long lasting' date=' dominating characters you see here now[/u'] are evil clerics, an occasional good cleric, druids, and healers.

I wasnt aware I was playing a druid?

But in all seriousness... I dont know if you HAVE played a druid, but thats such a false statement

[Pali]

Orodreth was a Knight paladin who kicked some serious butt. He sadly just wasn't around very long. My chars tend to not last very long either, and I try very hard to not make them mindless killers (Ilendriel did not aggressively attack non-drow/undead/demons, for instance, and spent most of his time chilling in Shas instead of hunting), which is why their numbers don't get very high up there.

And I'm sorry if showing that an uncaballed paladin can, even in a challenge, beat NEUTRAL cabal elders who are better equipped (Merle and Valadis were decked to the teeth when we fought) does not make you rethink your claim that paladins are weak. But I'm going to work off of my experience here, not yours. And in my experience, paladins are not weak at all and never have been.

[Deykari]

Paladins are not weak. (Good-align) Clerics are extremely survivable but can find it 'harder' to actually kill compared to most classes. Paladins sacrifice a small portion of that survivability in exchange for a little more offense.

Simply put - it may be hard for a Paladin to rack up major kills, but you can bet they have an easier time surviving. Pre-Avatar, with Pamiyn, I got 19 kills straight at pinn, then a further 15-ish post-Avatar. 30+ kills with 0 deaths is a nice streak, and don't think this is me dickwaving - every cat and their dog knows I am not a good PKer. Fact is, every fight I had that went wrong, the Paladin skillset helped me survive to fight again - and again, and again, and again... until I got lucky. The class just needs a different mindset. Pali's UNCABALLED, UNAVATARED Elf Paladin was a prime example of a really well played Paladin. His RP dictated that he wasn't a playerbase stomper, is all.

One of the biggest effects of giving a Paladin flail is that it will make them much stronger against Invokers - one of the few classes that have a very nice advantage over Paladins, and rightfully so.

As for goods themselves, I love them. I do have a gripe with request though:

Requesting

As it stands, good-align mobs that hold EQ can either be killed or requested from. Neuts and evils? They have access to where, they have access to communication ("is character X nearby?") and more importantly, they have the ability to be able to flee if an enemy approaches. When you request, however, you are a sitting duck. You simply sit and accept that you cannot see what is going on around you and even if you could, you can't do anything about it. Then afterwards, you're calmed!

Now considering that you don't have to fight the goodie-mob as a good to get items, it's near enough a fair trade - HOWEVER, I think that whilst requesting, the requester should have access to 'where' (and sure, there are 1230912301892323 roleplay reasons why a character shouldn't be able to 'where' whilst requesting/praying, but I can come up with 3482390481823419 reasons why we shouldn't be able to do other things that exist within the game too).

I think a command that allows you to cancel your request, mid-request, should be introduced to compliment this. Now before you all jump at my throat, I'm not talking about making it easy for the good. If mid-request, Bobby Goodman's where-ing and see's Bobby Smasher within the area, and decides to cancel the request, the item would be destroyed, he would incur the full calm penalty and the full HP/MP loss penalty that comes with requesting (and maybe some more?) and a period of lag. That way he is experiencing all of the negatives that come with requesting, without getting the item – and he’s experiencing some lag too. It gives the good a choice – do they risk waiting out the request, do they want to be attacked early on in the request and see if they can run away without experiencing the side-affects of a request, or do they want to cancel the request and put themselves in a poor condition and hope that the lag wears off quick enough for them to be able to escape? It wouldn’t help in situations where the enemy was stood waiting next to you because they’d see you’ve cancelled the request and would attack you whilst lagged, but it would be useful for the vigilant player who wants to cancel their request as soon as the enemy enters the area. Heck, you could maybe even replace the lag with drain.

Just an idea I have had for some time, probably not a great one. It’s not a major issue, just a very minor gripe of mine. I think something like this could be very useful without altering the re-equipping balance. Thoughts?

Dey

[Pali]

I think that's a great idea, Dey. Request, while awesome, most certainly has the side effect of making you Mr. Super-Easy-Target. I learned that the first time when Pali got interrupted mid-request by Hersnaie (undead monk King of Miruvhor and Conclave Leader, for those not familiar with the char). Not an encounter I survived, obviously. Your solution would make you still an easy target, but without death being quite so likely every time someone happens to wander along while you're doing it.

[Aulian]

I also have to say that the qclass/races in my opinion arent a match up.

Demons, undeads, vampires, liches, psi VS psi, avatar, crusader.

[Kyzarius]

I also have to say that the qclass/races in my opinion arent a match up.

Demons, undeads, vampires, liches, psi VS psi, avatar, crusader.

demon, undead, and avatars are race, not class...not nearly the difference in skill sets from normal classes as vamp/lich/psi and cru

[Aulian]

I realise... I did say qclass/race.

[Deykari]

I also have to say that the qclass/races in my opinion arent a match up.

Demons, undeads, vampires, liches, psi VS psi, avatar, crusader.

Only in terms of how many unique races/classes there are for each align.

As fas as qclass go, Evil get Lich, Vampire and Psi. Good get Crusader and Psi. 3v2, though Evil doesn’t get that much leverage here since Psi applies to only one race.

For Qraces, evils get Undead and Demon and Goods get the Avatar. Undead and Demon however, are two set-in-stone races, with specific stats, weaknesses, and strengths. Avatar is very flexible in the sense that you apply for it with any race, any class – if you think of it like that, there are like, what, 10+ goodie ‘qraces’?

Dey

[KRins]

To be honest, I really don't think there are as many goodies for one reason. We have to actually consider what we do to others or risk getting outcast. Not that I have a problem with that. I roll almost strictly goodies, or neutrals that end up with a distinctive twinge of good. Granted, I suck at life as it applies to FL. If you think there aren't enough goods...roll one. Change isn't a given, it is a taken.

[Aulian]

Hrmmm...

I dont know why but I have to say there are a FEW goodies being rolled up but they are all healers/clerics from what I've seen...

Is there any particular reason in this you think?

Only thing I can think of is that melee's will be in all honesty - owned.

Certain characters (points the finger accusingly at triathix and others) probably scare the **** out of the playerbase (rightly so ) but that could be a contributing factor.

Is it a bad thing? Hardly. Is it a possibility/reason? Possibly.

[Deykari]

To be honest' date=' I really don't think there are as many goodies for one reason. We have to actually consider what we do to others or risk getting outcast. Not that I have a problem with that. I roll almost strictly goodies, or neutrals that end up with a distinctive twinge of good. Granted, I suck at life as it applies to FL. If you think there aren't enough goods...roll one. Change isn't a given, it is a taken.[/quote']

Sort of agree.

If we throw RP to one side for a moment, evils can most of the time, pretty much fight whoever they like. Goods are much more restricted, and may not be as appealing to those who want to monster the pbase. A lot of people may also hate that if you're a good, you can't really PK that **** of a good who keeps messing you about.

Meh, each to their own. I'm not saying that is the reason, but I'm sure it affects some people's decisions - which is a shame, as it's perfectly possible to play a good-align that is a complete badass who is without mercy for evils and who takes no crap from goods. Remember, good align does NOT equal cute and fluffy, and it doesn't mean you have to be friends with other goods either.

Dey

[Aulian]

Meh, each to their own. I'm not saying that is the reason, but I'm sure it affects some people's decisions - which is a shame, as it's perfectly possible to play a good-align that is a complete badass who is without mercy for evils and who takes no crap from goods. Remember, good align does NOT equal cute and fluffy, and it doesn't mean you have to be friends with other goods either.

Dey

But friends are essential to survival in this mixed up world of eq epicness.

That being said, I do imagine that if you attack a good you would be outcasted. I am aware that Liethiri was outcasted for just crusading against a good class in a challenge.

[Deykari]

With Pamiyn, I let a good-align die in the Forsaken Lands and stole from his corpse. I also attacked numerous good-aligns who I felt were 'detrimental' to my personal cause, however with the intent of mercying/preaching.

The former, I was told was not becoming of a good. I was warned, and as an Avatar, I faced being denied (probably would have faced outcasting as a non-Avatar) - IC-ly, not OOC-ly, as the price for betraying Iru's trust in his Avatar in that way is obliteration.

As for the latter, I have no idea if I was breaking IC goodie rules or not, but that wouldn't have made any difference. I played him how I wanted to play him.

I'm not sure where goods stand in these sorts of circumstances. I personally believe there are instances where goods killing goods, harming goods, attacking goods, stealing from goods and so on, is completely justified within these certain contexts - however that is my own personal view.

Simply put, play your character how you want. OOC rules are the rules you should worry about breaking. IC rules are fine to break provided it is in your character's roleplay to do so, and you are willing to accept the IC punishments. I was still a bit of a 'renegade' after my IC warning, and a few times I think I could have been very close to getting wiped out.

What I meant by "you don't have to be friends" is that, don't think you have to be friendly towards other goods just because you're a good yourself. You may not want to harm them (or maybe you do!) but that doesn't mean you can't be grumpy, abusive, miserable, annoying, etc. - your character should be friends with those that your character 'gels' with, not those of similar align.

Dey

[BigPapa]

Its almost like goods have become the newbie alignment. You start, play a good for a bit, get beat up a lot by decked vets playing their uber evil. You learn enough to get by and get a new set etc.. Then you roll up your evil once you've 'graduated' from playing goods.

I agree,

Name me the goods who can really PK? Brendyn

Name me the neutrals who can really PK? Kongol Valadis Dumela Trekonomis.. Fontan etc...

Name me the evils who can really PK? Triathix, Uhril, Mephizex, Inari, Korropant, Purikant, Ichaaraal, .. Could go down the line with some Shaman and evil Clerics