Goods: The new endangered species

[L-A]

What a bunch of sooks - boo hoo, there are no goods. Well, go and roll some and stand up to all the evils who you are so afraid of. Oh wait - you are afraid aren't you - so you think its better to make an evil and be friends? You've only got yourself to blame here as you don't have the stones to dig you heels in. You know, 60 deaths is a lot, chances are you'll have worked out how to kill them by the end.

On another note I have played a good as far as lvl 35 - besides requesting (which wasn't too bad) the main reason I don't like playing them is that there is always some jerk who is good and you aren't meant to kill the f***er. The insult you, spit on you, try to steal equipment if you hunting for it, try to steal group members, won't group with you etc. Why do these people not behave like this as neut's or evils? Simple - players put them in their place. I am 100% sure I would be damned and probalby outcasted as a good at some point as I just wouldn't take it and I'd kill and loot the guy. Then the whine to the IMMs starts and on and on it goes....

Its just easier to play something where I have a perfectly reasonable recourse - ie kill them.

L-A

[Hegemon]

L-A has pretty much summed up the above average player's feelings on goods.

Generally speaking my experience has been that the Evil players are classier and in fact better friends to have then the goods. And if they aren't, well, you just kill them. Kill their friends. Kill anyone. There's a delicious freedom there in being able to be limited in the game only by your power.

Goods, on the other hand, you always have the problem whereupon someone (usually a stupid elf, which is another reason I dislike playing goods) has the EQ you want and certainly isn't going to give it to you, you can't kill him (or her), so you are just left fuming behind your monitor.

And then as for RP, well, you are a good, so that's a huge RP penalty right there off the bat. Evils get much more leeway. You can play closer to a "good" evil than you can the reverse.

As Plato wrote, "The Perfectly unjust man appears completely just". And that, to me, is Lawful Evil right there, the single most entertaining alignment in all of FL and one which I feel gets a bad rap/is under represented.

[Cephirus]

I have always felt that alignment has been too restricting on rp. In that, what is deemed good by others, may not necessarily be seen as a good deed to another. For example if person A lives their life in a fashion that they deem as devout and holy, and so on, then person B comes along and steals from them. Person A retaliates and kills person B justifying their actions by the simple virtue that because that person stole, they must be evil, or vile, or whatever you wish to classify it as. Now person C comes along and shuns person A, because even though person B stole from person A, person A should still not have killed person B, because it is person C's perspective that all can be saved, and only evil people give up on others. Even in D&d the group of people I play with have done away with alignment, as it is too restricting in general upon the types of character, or more importantly the way your character acts. Obviously if your character values human life and justice, they are not going to go on a killing spree of innocents and rape and pillage the lands. And should they suddenly decide to, well, there are other recourses to said actions, and they will get what is coming to them.

I whole heartedly believe FL COULD do away with alignment, obviously this would drastically change the game, but also I think both the imms and the player base is a bit nervous that people would loose sight of their respective characters rp and just do whatever struck their whim. I would hope that this would not be the case, and should this ever happen, I think that that character would and should have alot of explaining to do as to why they suddenly decided to change their motives. Of course that in itself would be cause for a whole new slew of problems, not to mention the imms I am sure do not want to have to babysit the characters to make sure they are at least adhering somewhat to their values in life. Either way, this rant is becoming much longer than I had intended, and perhaps for at least some of you it will be food for thought.

[Imoutgoodbye]

It couldn't happen...it just couldn't. There is such a thing as too much freedom.

[Psycho Child]

There is such a thing as too much freedom.

No there is not. There may be such a thing as too few consequences, but there is no such thing as too much freedom. Not here, not in RL, not anywhere.

[Balgashang]

Meh, I generally play goods, but for L-A's reasonings, I've turned to the dark side as of late heh. Sucks getting pk'd and looted by a goodie militia, helping an evil tribunal and having to just be like, I shouldn't have broken the law. Hence pk and outcasting

[locopostal]

hey i'm workin on gettin my good up there as fast as I can..only 13 levels to go..

now if I only had someone to group with...

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Reasons playing goods sucks:

1. I can't kill Johnny Paladin for his gear. Goods are EQ whores.

2. I can't beat him down to an inch of his life to command respect.

3. I can't physically drive him away from an area or person.

4. I can't stand requesting as it is. I like the 'interupt' idea tho.

5. Don't even get me started on the whole good vs. good "capture" thing.

#1 is probably just me. #2 I can see happening in KNIGHT.

I just hate playing goods.

[Psycho Child]

Solutions?

1. Make requesting interruptible, and allow the use of "where". Penalties for interrupt: Drain, item destroyed, rare item request you get calm for half duration.

2. Allow only Neutrals and Evils into Tribunal. (Personally I think it should be LN only, but maybe thats just me.)

[Aulian]

3. Encourage evils to kill each OTHER more.

As I see it now Evils have better relationships then the goods. They should be hacking and slashing rather then cuddling.

Evils are made stronger because they are supposed to be fighting EVERYONE. As I see it now the evils band together ALWAYS without much fighting/killing amongst themselves.

[Psycho Child]

Agreed. I think the whole notion of cabal alliances are crap. There should be no alliances.

[Aulian]

Dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with evils being friendly.

BUT

The game is designed so that evils pack more punch because they are supposed to have a lot more enemies from the goods and EVILS that are supposed to be attacking them.

If that isnt happening then evils need to be toned in accordance with goods. Or goods need a wee buff.

[Iconz]

So im readin this thread... and somethin pops out at me... Why do we people enjoy gaming? Cuz it gets to put you into a situation that you normally dont find yourself in... its an escape from the real world. Now most of you are prolly like "Duh Iconz"... but what im tryin to say is this. I think most of you are tired of playing goods in real life and so you compensate by being a.... Richard..... in game. IRL... most of you cant smack someone who disses you... most of you cant demand someone give you something else youll whip their... donkey. I dont really think theres anythin wrong w/ goods ... but most people dont come online to be "nice"... everyone wants to be Billy Backhand...

God forbid ya gotta talk to another player w/out having to resort to whose... rooster... is bigger. Anyway... i think theres a misconception about goodies. It makes me want to roll up a goodie who isnt all tea n crumpets... but who isnt also Zack the Zealot.

__________________

Iconz - The catchphrase forum king... kiss the ring

[Vee]

I whole heartedly believe FL COULD do away with alignment' date=' obviously this would drastically change the game, but also I think both the imms and the player base is a bit nervous that people would loose sight of their respective characters rp and just do whatever struck their whim.[/quote']

On this note, just to throw in my cents worth, back in the day when the mud would be down for a while, i would explore other muds just to tinker around and i came across one mud that alignment was based on what you killed, if you killed evil mobs, your alignment went positive, a little per kill, and when you killed good mobs your align went negative a bit, i think each mob had either a positive or negative alignment, neutrals more close to or equal to zero than either positive or negative. I could see it being interesting if with a mesh of this system and a mesh of that system if the total effectiveness of your abilities and damage done by them and such was based at least loosely on your and your opponents align number. Course, I doubt we would do away with alignments altogether. But I read this and it took me back to that mud and felt i would throw in my penny.

[Mudder]

I like the idea of not having alignments, or "loose" alignments.

However, that would turn it into an almost entirely different mud.

All of our balance and stuff is based on alignment in one way or another.

Though it is fun to tinker around with in thought, I do not think it is practical for us.

[Aulian]

I like the idea of not having alignments, or "loose" alignments.

However, that would turn it into an almost entirely different mud.

All of our balance and stuff is based on alignment in one way or another.

Though it is fun to tinker around with in thought, I do not think it is practical for us.

seconded.

[Djriacen]

Ever since Deralias, good have not been fun.. And at the end he beat his wife and nearly killed his child, so he ended up evil as well.

['tarako]

'While reading through this, I was actually thinking of something like Vee. Have a system where you could start as any alignment, but have the mobs you kill/ quests you do slowly change them. Some kind of system like that. And in terms of DnD groups, we told our DM our starting alignment, and then he kinda kept track of them from there. It was hilarious when he told our paladin that he no longer felt his gods power in him, or something like that when he tried to com a pray. Much fun.

[WagesofSin]

I do not like the idea of changeable aligns through mob kills, but removing aligns all together and perhaps just keeping Lawful,Chaotic, or Neutral would be interesting.

Could it also be that goods don't really have much cabal choice other than Knight and Tribunal? I would be for making Tribunal like Justice where only goods and neutrals could join. Savant and to a lesser extent warmaster are usually dominated by evils, making it awkward to be a good in them as well as often forcing you to fight against other goods.

[BigPapa]

Aulian hit it on the head.

Evils shouldn't have friends. Power, Glory, Respect.. That is why you are evil. If you are friendly evil and play nice in the sandbox all the time you should be OUTCASTED as an evil.

I know this happens in Nexus and Syndicate with power stuggles etc...

Warmaster, Savant.. How do you have a Drow Shaman and Elf Healer working together?

Evils should have the same demands put on them as Goods. Be evil or else!

[killalou]

Sorry...can't play a good...90% of newbs are rollin' evils...someone has to walk them down the right path....

I also think the increasing decline in goods is because of the new resurrection...they don't get to live forever anymore. Which is fine with me.

New ressurection? Care to explain?

[Kyzarius]

New ressurection? Care to explain?

pk deaths cannot be reversed by res, only mob deaths. YOu can be raised still from a pk death but you still lose con.

[English lad]

Ressurection used to mean you didn't lose a life towards Perma Death

[Twinblades713]

Warmaster' date=' Savant.. How do you have a Drow Shaman and Elf Healer working together? [/quote']

Oh ye of little faith.

There are ALWAYS ways for that to work.

[KRins]

A res from a Pdeath don't repair your condition. I think that is what he is getting at. I was under the impression that back in the day a res was equally effective for a pdeath or a mdeath.