PLEASE READ: Major Proposal - The Two Tiered PK System

[Twinblades713]

It all sounds great but I'm sure there will have to be a huge load of testing and balancing to it. I doubt it will look good for a little while but as for an end result, I'm really optimistic. I like it.

[Raargant]

1) No, non-rares cannot be taken.

2) In actual implementation, there will probably be diverging rare limits based on class, as Lytholm suggested.

3) 'Full loot protection' (assuming it is instituted), as you put it, would only be for people who have been killed by caballed person A already, and is killed by caballed person A again (which would not be possible normally). If they are killed in turn by persons B, C, or D, they will continue to lose rares. So calling it 'full loot protection' is perhaps a bit incorrect; think of it as a 'limited multikill protection' for caballed players; you can still be multikilled, but if you die to a multikill, you at least won't lose armor for it.

[Deykari]

1) No, non-rares cannot be taken.

2) In actual implementation, there will probably be diverging rare limits based on class, as Lytholm suggested.

3) 'Full loot protection' (assuming it is instituted), as you put it, would only be for people who have been killed by caballed person A already, and is killed by caballed person A again (which would not be possible normally). If they are killed in turn by persons B, C, or D, they will continue to lose rares. So calling it 'full loot protection' is perhaps a bit incorrect; think of it as a 'limited multikill protection' for caballed players; you can still be multikilled, but if you die to a multikill, you at least won't lose armor for it.

1. Hmm. At first I thought "What the..." but thinking about it, that seems sensible.

2. Yeah, most definitely. How will this affect the gap between standard and hardcore players I wonder though? If it was a case of "Standard Invokers can have 10 rares but man, a Warrior can hold 15, I might take the 5-rare hit in favour of the loot/kill protection because I can still be damn near as strong as a hardcore but without the risk of losing my EQ in one go" then potentially a lot of people may play some classes standard from that POV, maybe.

3. Sorry, very poor wording on my part. I understand now, that seems cool.

I sort of agree with Twinblades, though I don't think balancing will be as big an issue as one may think. I could be wrong though.

Dey

[Raargant]

2) In combination with the upcoming equipment/rare rebalancing, the difference between a person in a full suit, half suit, and 'basic suit' (ie, mithril/tainted) will hopefully be considerably smaller than it is now. I think there is a degree of nostalgia (and rightfully so) for a time when a person in a 'basic suit' of mithril or tainted could be reasonably competitive against a decent segment of the pbase. This obviously is not the case. Presumably and hopefully, the difference between a person with a 'full suit' and a 'half suit' will be relatively minimal.

Although there will definitely be a difference between 'standard' and 'hardcore' in terms of 'power', that isn't the main difference; the main difference is in ease of play and 'achievement'. No matter how well they do, a 'standard' character would never be able to be leader, never be able to be elder, and possibly never even be able to reach trusted. Against two players of equal skill, the 'hardcore' should always have an advantage, due to access to more cabal skills and more armor; however, the 'standard' player should, after the rare rebalancing, still be competitive.

The exact number of rares will not be something like 10-15; the range would be more akin to 8-12, with the 'average' falling at around 10. Say perhaps 7-8 for clerics/bmg's (who really do not need that many rares to be dangerous), 12 for warriors/berserkers, and with 10 being for rangers.

[Deykari]

I see. Thanks for settling some concerns, I've had another read through and I genuinely cannot find anything else that concerns me, infact I'm quite excited for the idea and really hope it comes in.

Dey

[Lexi]

How will the tiers work for questrace/class applicants? Will both be able to apply, or only hardcore characters?

[Deykari]

Oh, how will this work for existing characters too? Will it be a pwipe?

Dey

[random_clown]

Slight change that I would do is a spin on the naming. To encourage the movement to "hardcore" it might be useful to have the hardcore setting be called "Standard." And this is truth, because historically it has been the standard game setting. The new setting is below that, so could be called something else to differentiate it (no idea right now, just walking out the door).

In fact, a tiered system opens up a realm for not only going one eschalon below standard to a protected/lowered penalty, but also going one up to a true hardcore system.

[Shinth]

Oh, how will this work for existing characters too? Will it be a pwipe?

Dey

I think Raargant already stated that after the new change is implemented, existent chars will be given the chance to choose between the two tiers.

I'm still pondering if I should choose standard or hardcore for my thief. And cleric. :confused:

[Deykari]

Gah, I read through it twice and missed out so much. Early mornings at work are awful.

Dey

[Imoutgoodbye]

Well, it all looks great to me. I applaud all the intellect floating around in the skies above Aabahran.

As for p-wipes, last time we had one it was due to a HUGE overhaul on equipment, code, and cabals, so, I foresee no p-wipe this time. You may find a few pieces of your current characters equipment gone or changed into something else at the worst.

I have no questions and am satisfied.

EDIT: One suggestions, actually. Can standard players come standard with Newbie chat to level 45 or, perhaps lower, if we're going to start inducting into cabals sooner? I know inducting into cabals sooner wasn't put up, but if the p-base grows, I foresee that.

[Quigt]

Sounds good, but if a standard character kills a hardcore character, can standard character full-loot the hardcore character?

And can stardard/hardcore thieves still full-loot because they're thieves and their job is to steal stuff?

Or what if a standard char doesn't have any rares? Does the killer still get to loot them, or are they out of luck?

[corpsestomp]

I'm very indifferent to the whole idea...I don't like creating a 'rift' between different types of characters, but I like the idea of giving newer 'standard' characters, a buffer zone. I'm really broken about it, so really...this post means nothing...

How will the tiers work for questrace/class applicants? Will both be able to apply' date=' or only hardcore characters?[/quote']

This is a good question. If this is implemented, I think that only 'hardcore' characters should be able to apply.

And finally, I really dislike the idea of only looting rares, since snatching up backpacks is the easiest way to keep someone from coming back anytime soon.

[Aulian]

A lot of interesting points and a couple of concerns/suggestions/ideas.

1. Reduce the amount of exp penalty of mob deaths on SC players. They are here to learn, so reducing it by as much as 50-75% wont change matters much other then allow them to continue on their way.

2. I think they should have the standard amount of deaths (61) and not be reduced as Lytholm suggested. Newer players die to the stupidest things and they need the buffer of lives to learn properly.

3. I think they should be allowed the abilities up to V level when inducted into cabals. They will most definately be fighting HC characters with the full range of cabal skills and in order to keep on an even keel - they will need this. Plus it all helps with the learning process and gives some positive reinforcement.

4. I feel that these players will be weakened enough without being able to loot their backpacks and so forth. Really they will be mostly helpless against the better versed players so no point in making it that much worse.

5. With the mentioned eq balance you must be very careful. If the two are brought much closer together I can think of a suit for a ranger/druid that with under 10 rares will be very very competitive if the power of mithril ect is changed. (something to consider with the issue of balance between SC and HC characters and the looting protections)

6. I have mixed feelings about SC characters being able to apply for qclass/races. Maybe we should allow them for these races/classes are based not on being bad assed pkers but on conforming to a higher level of RP as well. Maybe we should just make it so anyone can apply and then all qrace/class characters are automatically HC.

EDIT: More to come.

EDIT2: Im in full support of the two tiered idea.

[spiegel06]

Just wondering more or less when will this be implemented? Both the Tier and the EQ change? Another question I have is that if a Char has choosen HG and tries it but is not doing well and is getting frustrated will there be an option for them to choose to go back down to SG? Will it be similiar to the 'upgrading'?

[KRins]

My only issue with this is that the better cabal skills I can think of are all trusted at least. Considering the cabals I have been in, Trusted is the turning point from peon to powerful as far as skills go. Some caballers can't function to half their potential at Vet compared to a T. Also what is the answer to Qclass/qrace for SC?

[Aulian]

Lol patience... Raar doesnt live on the website.. He has a job and studies I imagine. Give him a chance

[Iusedtobesomebody]

after reading it through... well, it can't hurt, I guess. although in keeping with the basis of what FL was founded on, I would suggest anything you have to apply for (excluding race restrings) should be limited to hardcore only. a softcore player can still learn with some protections, then upgrade to play things that are set to a higher standard of RP/PK.

[Mali]

There are so many things that can be done to make The Forsaken Lands better and brighter for the new guys as well as the old guys. Things like continuing to build and replace stock areas. Things like making a decent website that doesn't plagiarize images. Adding more fantastic lands to visit, different races, classes, and fixes is the way to spend time improving the game.

Alot of the new players logging on are actually older players coming back for some of the gameplay that The Forsaken Lands is known for. What will you have to offer them in this watered down world you are suggesting? Think of the way that some of the best have played: Old Man, Crypticant, Virigoth, Inscribed, Sirant, Mindflayer, Celerity, Avariel (even though he is borderline on this issue), Myrek, L-A, Athaekeetha, and all those guys and girls that know how to RP the right way and that are too numerous to name. I ask again, What will you have to offer them in this brave new sandbox world? Part of increasing our size is retaining the players we do have.

I'll quote Virigoth here:

You are SUPPOSED to die. Paranoia is your friend

When I kill a player, I want it to sting. I want them to come after me and try to get revenge. I want to interact with them. I don't want to see them pick it all up again like nothing has happened and continue on with their day. Being ALIVE after DEATH is much more of a reward than equipment. In my opinion this proposed change actually detracts from RP.

Though I defend killing and full looting - and I don't whine on the forum when it happens to me - I do not do it very often. I think a serious look at the issue will reveal that full looting is the exception and not the normal state of affairs. Furthermore, it is not the killer that makes the game equipment based. It is the player that cannot stand to lose equipment that is focusing too much on that aspect of the game. We don't need code based protections in place. In fact the ones already there such as cabal life insurance should be critically reviewed.

THOU SHALT ADD TO THE GAME, NOT TAKETH AWAY.

Like I said before, there are just so many things that can be done to make this little world better that I am inclined to see this type of idea to be a waste of time and in direct conflict with the founding principles of The Forsaken Lands.

Keep the ideas coming though, brainstorming is always a good thing.

[Aulian]

Firstly I have to say that this game has grown and changed considerable since those mentioned 'greats' were at their peak.

Even by simple comparison the ABILITY of the playerbase to compete compared to those days is a thousand times different. Back then power was held by very few and they excelled above and beyond. These days so many more people are in the know that it makes comparing anything back to those times almost impossible.

Full looting has never bugged me. Im all for it. But I can understand how it could crush newer players will to continue, especially if it happens repeatedly.

Like I said before, there are just so many things that can be done to make this little world better that I am inclined to see this type of idea to be a waste of time and in direct conflict with the founding principles of The Forsaken Lands.

This is just a ridiculous thing to say. Anything that stays stagnant for 9 years would fail. IN EVERY WAY. Change is needed every so often to keep up with the times and appease the current consumers.

This change will be very minor. I know I wont ever make a SC character. I can tell you now that almost 98% of the current pinns wont make an SC character either. Its only the new folk that will. The folk that you ussually skip over in PK cause its just not sporting to be killing a newer player thats trying to learn.

I really think this change can bring some good to the mud - it will by all means, need some changes, some ironing out and definately a lot of hard work - but I also feel it will not detract from those who already play it at the break neck speed we like.

Change is good.

As the chinese say: Flowing water never goes bad.

[KRins]

+5 for Aulian...2 bonus points for a good Eastern quote. You wanna brawl it out for all the marbles, you still can. You want the chance to learn something more than how long it takes you to trot out to the Ford, you can do that too.

[Mali]

I agree that change is a good thing, Just not this change.

[Evangelion]

For the record, ninjas lose every bit of their study on death.

They lose half of their study if they botch an assassination attempt.

[inscribed]

i'm going to agree with Mali. i don't like this idea. also, dividing characters like this through in game rules is a very dangerous slope. i just don't like this idea, sorry.

[Raargant]

Yaaawn. Is it morning already?

How will the tiers work for questrace/class applicants? Will both be able to apply' date=' or only hardcore characters?[/quote']

I think I agree with IUTBS. If it needs an application, it would probably be limited to HC. Custom races excepted, of course. All base classes including druids, healers, and shamans would be available to everyone.

Oh' date=' how will this work for existing characters too? Will it be a pwipe?[/quote']

Existing characters will most likely be offered the choice and flagged.

Slight change that I would do is a spin on the naming. To encourage the movement to "hardcore" it might be useful to have the hardcore setting be called "Standard." And this is truth, because historically it has been the standard game setting. The new setting is below that, so could be called something else to differentiate it (no idea right now, just walking out the door).

In fact, a tiered system opens up a realm for not only going one eschalon below standard to a protected/lowered penalty, but also going one up to a true hardcore system.

The tier system will not be called 'standard' or 'hardcore'; that's just out of laziness on my part. It will have a more IC-sounding name.

Sounds good, but if a standard character kills a hardcore character, can standard character full-loot the hardcore character?

And can stardard/hardcore thieves still full-loot because they're thieves and their job is to steal stuff?

Or what if a standard char doesn't have any rares? Does the killer still get to loot them, or are they out of luck?

No. A standard character can loot the same from the hardcore as the hardcore can from the standard; 2 rares. Thieves will also abide by this restriction. If the standard character doesn't have rares, the killer can take gold, but nothing else.

I'm very indifferent to the whole idea...I don't like creating a 'rift' between different types of characters' date=' but I like the idea of giving newer 'standard' characters, a buffer zone. I'm really broken about it, so really...this post means nothing...[/quote']

From an IMM perspective, the 'rift' already exists in player attitudes and in playstyle, but the 'rift' does not exist in code, meaning that one side can enforce their attitudes on the other. That is one of the issues we are trying to address.

And finally' date=' I really dislike the idea of only looting rares, since snatching up backpacks is the easiest way to keep someone from coming back anytime soon.[/quote']

A lot of current players in FL says they like danger, right? Guess this means the world got a bit more dangerous, and the danger isn't removed just from one kill.

1. Reduce the amount of exp penalty of mob deaths on SC players. They are here to learn' date=' so reducing it by as much as 50-75% wont change matters much other then allow them to continue on their way.[/quote']

This can be considered.

5. With the mentioned eq balance you must be very careful. If the two are brought much closer together I can think of a suit for a ranger/druid that with under 10 rares will be very very competitive if the power of mithril ect is changed. (something to consider with the issue of balance between SC and HC characters and the looting protections)

The rebalancing will be a significant effort.

Just wondering more or less when will this be implemented? Both the Tier and the EQ change? Another question I have is that if a Char has choosen HG and tries it but is not doing well and is getting frustrated will there be an option for them to choose to go back down to SG? Will it be similiar to the 'upgrading'?

This will begin to be implemented after Malchaeius gives the final go-ahead, and our coders starts on the code. This is something we are fairly optimistic about. I do not foresee a 'downgrade' option. Of course, it's doable for IMM's, but it's not something I foresee happening, certainly not on a regular basis.

My only issue with this is that the better cabal skills I can think of are all trusted at least. Considering the cabals I have been in' date=' Trusted is the turning point from peon to powerful as far as skills go. Some caballers can't function to half their potential at Vet compared to a T. Also what is the answer to Qclass/qrace for SC?[/quote']

Yes, I am aware that V/T is the turning point. The problem of giving them access to T skills is that there would then be very little difference between them and 'hardcore', since so few people ever make it to Elder or Leader. This is something we will consider. Perhaps some rearrangement of cabal skills in combination with this is in order, or access to a different set of skills for SC.