PLEASE READ: Major Proposal - The Two Tiered PK System

[Raargant]

Thank you for the long post, Mali. I will attempt to address it as fully as I can.

There are so many things that can be done to make The Forsaken Lands better and brighter for the new guys as well as the old guys. Things like continuing to build and replace stock areas. Things like making a decent website that doesn't plagiarize images. Adding more fantastic lands to visit, different races, classes, and fixes is the way to spend time improving the game.

Alot of the new players logging on are actually older players coming back for some of the gameplay that The Forsaken Lands is known for. What will you have to offer them in this watered down world you are suggesting? Think of the way that some of the best have played: Old Man, Crypticant, Virigoth, Inscribed, Sirant, Mindflayer, Celerity, Avariel (even though he is borderline on this issue), Myrek, L-A, Athaekeetha, and all those guys and girls that know how to RP the right way and that are too numerous to name. I ask again, What will you have to offer them in this brave new sandbox world? Part of increasing our size is retaining the players we do have.

In principle, I concur. The building and replacing of stock areas will go on apace; this is code side, and time spent coding =! time not spent on building. There is no correlation here. Bugfixes will go on apace as well. In addition, I think you overestimate the length of time it will take to implement and/or test these changes.

However, here is my perspective. Based on the current pbase side, area-wise, FL is already quite big. I do not see a reason to further expand the world size, as it would then become an overly large sandbox with an overly small population.

The question you have asked a number of times here is, "What is in it for the older players?" My answer is that I do not believe and do not hope that older players will come here because of shiny new toys, but rather, because of the increased interaction which comes from an increased playerbase. This game is fundamentally a game of player interaction (violent or otherwise), and expanding its population will significantly help that. I do not see having, say, 14 classes instead of 13 as something which would fundamentally change the MUD. I do see having 50 players on at peak as opposed to 25 as something which should make the mud much more enjoyable for everyone present. This is intended as one step towards that, but is by no means the only step. The recent long string of bugfixes should testify to that.

When I kill a player, I want it to sting. I want them to come after me and try to get revenge. I want to interact with them. I don't want to see them pick it all up again like nothing has happened and continue on with their day. Being ALIVE after DEATH is much more of a reward than equipment. In my opinion this proposed change actually detracts from RP.

I understand and appreciate your perspective. However, I think that if your opponents have more armor and less of a 'recovery time', you would find that there is a greater chance of them coming after you to get revenge. When you kill a player, it will still 'sting'; let's be realistic here. PK is still a competitive thing, and a death is a 'sting' to the ego; in addition, 1 life is lost, gold would be lost, and 2 of their best rares, amongst their 10 few. The sting will remain there; it just won't be a kick in the nuts, as it is now to some.

Though I defend killing and full looting - and I don't whine on the forum when it happens to me - I do not do it very often. I think a serious look at the issue will reveal that full looting is the exception and not the normal state of affairs. Furthermore, it is not the killer that makes the game equipment based. It is the player that cannot stand to lose equipment that is focusing too much on that aspect of the game. We don't need code based protections in place. In fact the ones already there such as cabal life insurance should be critically reviewed.

Cabal life insurance may come under review regardless.

I hope this addresses some of your concerns.

[spiegel06]

Well I wonder if everyone who started out on this MUD (talking those that were a newb, which should be everyone here at somepoint) and when you got killed and full looted how did that make you feel? I doubt you were anything but happy about it. Now I am not saying you all got crazy and stop playing but what I am getting to is that if you all got even the slightest upset and logged or got frustrated then you should understand why they wish to do this. To help promote the expansion of new players here.

Now another thing, I been full looted many time, sometimes it upsets me and sometime it does not, but why do the best people kill then full loot, and when regathering kill that same person again? What does that prove? Nothing just that you can kill a naked person as well as if they were in basics, that is not showing any help to person and then we criticize them for logging away becuase they do not wish to keep dying from being naked. This has happened to me many times when I played Raniku.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I would also like to propose limiting the number of Standard Gamers allowed into a cabal. Currently proposing a 50/50 split so that enough SG's get in to learn from the rest of us, but it doesn't stop that many of the HG's from getting in to teach through various methods. The 50/50 split could be raised/lowered depending on the number of total cabal slots available.

Oh, god, I'm so excited I'm practically .

This isn't your idea of a late April Fool's joke, is it, Raar? *peers intently*

[Raargant]

I would also like to propose limiting the number of Standard Gamers allowed into a cabal. Currently proposing a 50/50 split so that enough SG's get in to learn from the rest of us' date=' but it doesn't stop that many of the HG's from getting in to teach through various methods. The 50/50 split could be raised/lowered depending on the number of total cabal slots available.[/quote']

This is something that I feel should be left to the discretion of each cabal IMM.

This isn't your idea of a late April Fool's joke' date=' is it, Raar? *peers intently*[/quote']

No.

[Mudder]

I read it, thought about it. I like it. I wish we had something like this when I was a newb, maybe it wouldn't have taken me so damn long to learn the ropes.

Though I am a big fan of cabal life-insurance. Lets keep it. Lol.

[Mali]

As inscribed said, this is a very dangerous precedent to set, folks.

If this type of behavior gets started, will you really be able to stop it from making the game progressively less dangerous? The idea does not address non-rares. Why should these be protected when they will all easily be found on the forum? The idea does not address multiple looters. Perhaps a limited # of items per person would be better (although as stated previously I don't like the idea to begin with and hesitate to offer improvements upon it).

Will the equipment still return to the pits? If so, I will be encouraged to kill SG players in remote locations...

Furthermore, if it seems like the idea will be coded in, let us know beforehand so we can PK and full loot to our hearts content before being slapped on the wrist for playing a game the way it was meant to be played.

[goldbond]

on the surface, this seems like a really good proposal. my biggest concern is that the "hardcore" realm will still take their status as a "full loot on every kill" mentality more than ever, just because of the nature of the status. i also just wish players used discretion in regards to looting most of all, entirely avoiding the need for a revised PK system.

that said, having these tiers does remove pretty much any cause for bitching about full-loot again, because that's what you signed up for!

personally what i hope that if you guys decide to implement the sytem, is that the outcome will be an environment where players actually might dare to say more than a couple words to each other in CentralCommons, or actually stand in the same room as another and look at them and even read their description, while not sweating like a thuglife gangster in maximum security prison waiting for anyone to run up and shank them at the next instant.

if the system can produce results similar to that, then it's a smart move.

[f0xx]

To be honest I don't like the idea, I am against full loots too, but some people deserve to be fully looted. This will make things quite complex for understanding by new players themself.

Not to mention the people who will try to abuse this...

[Raargant]

As inscribed said, this is a very dangerous precedent to set, folks.

The idea does not address non-rares. Why should these be protected when they will all be easily found on the forum. The idea does not address multiple looters. Perhaps a limited # of items per person would be better (although as stated previous I don't like the idea to begin with and hesitate to offer improvements upon it).

Non-rares will not be lootable. The purpose is to remove a major source of frustration which some players do not like, for those who are willing to accept those benefits in exchange for certain tradeoffs. I do not see allowing a person who has a full suit of crappy non-rare armor to be totally stripped of everything he has to be conducive to this. Multiple looters will not be possible.

Will the equipment still return to the pits? If so, I will be encouraged to kill SG players in remote locations...

Equipment will still return to the pits after ~15 minutes, yes.

Furthermore, if it seems like the idea will be coded in, let us know beforehand so we can PK and full loot to our hearts content before being slapped on the wrist for playing a game the way it was meant to be played.

I would certainly hope that an experienced player would not multikill mindlessly and dictate his looting preferences solely on the basis of not liking changes which will be forthcoming.

Two quick points. 1) There will be 'no slap on the wrist'. Some things simply will not be possible. 2) You are not the person who dictates to others the way 'the game is meant to be played'. For quite some time now, 'hardcore' players have dictated to more casual players that 'this is how it is', and to 'harden up' and play things they want it; if they don't, then 'get out', and have enforced that dictum when they felt it via multikilling, full looting, and superior PK skills born of years of practice. This change is designed to directly address this counter-productive attitude.

[Raargant]

that said, having these tiers does remove pretty much any cause for bitching about full-loot again, because that's what you signed up for!

That's part of the hoped-for result as well.

To be honest I don't like the idea' date=' I am against full loots too, but some people deserve to be fully looted. This will make things quite complex for understanding by new players themself.[/quote']

There will be relevant help files explaining the difference, which will be referenced during the character creation process.

Not to mention the people who will try to abuse this...

Please feel free to cite examples of possible abuse. We will certainly try to code out the possibility of as many as possible, and monitor/moderate the rest.

[Zhokril]

The recurring complaint that I have read is basically "FL is a dangerous world, was meant to be a dangerous world, and this allows people to follow a precedent contrary to the principle of the game".

However, you are not losing anything as a result of this change. All of the "types" of people that thrive on that clinging-to-life atmosphere can still do that. I think its more than obvious that anyone who is PK-inclined cannot "dominate" as a Standard character.

The target of this change is gaining new players. The game will still have everyone it has now AND those new players that didn't stick it out despite being beaten mercilessly for, in most cases, a year or more real life time before they can even "hold their own". Sure, maybe we'll get a few people that just would rather stay RP focused. But let's face it, PK in FL is fun. You really think that none of these players we would have otherwise lost without this change are not going to eventually venture into the harsher ranks of FL? And even if not, as Malchaeius stated, some purely RP characters have had some of the biggest impacts on the game.

The very wide majority of the people that will take advantage of this change are new players we would have otherwise lost. I've read A LOT of posts that have said "I don't necessarily like full loots, but I think they're part of FL". So even a lot of our players that aren't necessarily the best of even in the upper ranks of PK would want to be "hardcore".

I think that what will happen is that mostly anyone who has some degree of experience with FL (and new players once they gain this experience) will join the hardcore ranks. The standard category would basically only be designed (and in the nature of its design practical) for people not so experienced with the game.

The mentality that people that leave FL aren't worth our time anyways is just plain silly. The learning curve in FL is very tough. Is it fun once you've gotten over that curve? Sure it is. But in order to see FL thrive and grow we need to help people over that hill. We aren't handing anyone anything on a platter, and we aren't giving away the knowledge we worked hard to learn on our own.

To use an analogy, joining the FL community is something like trying to join the Green Berets without any prior experience in that field. Will some people manage to tough it out and succeed? Yes. But its still an extremely arduous feat to accomplish. Becoming a part of this game and this community is not meant to be a feat or a challenge.

[Mali]

It just seems like this system is designed to be a pacifier to those who don't want to learn how to play. It is the FORSAKEN lands after all, not the slightly forsaken lands. We can't kill and loot in real life without serious consequences... now we won't be able to do it in a fantasy world either. This will have real world implications that you aren't going to like.

Like I said before, I don't think looting is the reason we have a small playerbase. I think its because this is a txt based game with virtually no website or real representation.

You are not the person who dictates to others the way 'the game is meant to be played'.

I am the voice of reason, Raargant. As the thread title suggests this is a very major change. It is also very recent and needs to be examined closely and then torn apart over time. Those who decided the way it was meant to be played created the game. It sets us apart from alot of other places.

We have the adventurer class for this reason.

[Raargant]

It just seems like this system is designed to be a pacifier to those who don't want to learn how to play. It is the FORSAKEN lands after all' date=' not the slightly forsaken lands. We can't kill and loot in real life without serious consequences... now we won't be able to do it in a fantasy world either. This will have real world implications that you aren't going to like.[/quote']

You can still kill. You can still loot. Against certain players, you will no longer be able to kill repeatedly within a short time frame. Against certain players, you will no longer be able to loot everything. Against other 'hardcore', you can still kill and loot as much as you want and are able to. You are somewhat distorting and exaggerating the nature of the change, which is not very persuasive.

Like I said before, I don't think looting is the reason we have a small playerbase. I think its because this is a txt based game with virtually no website or real representation.

Across the past eight years, I have heard many complaints regarding looting and multikilling. I have heard very few regarding the website or representation. I am sure you have your own views, and you are of course entitled to them, but I would like to see them supported if possible. And, again, the website is something which will and is also being addressed. My personal opinion is that if the game is engrossing and interesting, players will stay with the game. I find the argument that players will leave the game due to the website not being sufficiently snazzy to be somewhat unpersuasive. Speaking on a personal level, I know that I have never stuck with a game due to a snazzy website, nor left one due to a crappy one.

I am the voice of reason, Raargant. As the thread title suggests this is a very major change. It is also very recent and needs to be examined closely and then torn apart over time. Those who decided the way it was meant to be played created the game. It sets us apart from alot of other places.

The code may bear similarities of course, but the staff, playerbase, and many other things have changed significantly over the past decade. Those who decided the way it was meant to be played then gave it to this current administration, who decides the way it is meant to be played now. I am sure that if you wish to apply to rejoin the staff, you would be given significant consideration, and in that event your opinion would also of course be given correspondingly more weight. Short of that, although your opinion on what you consider to be fun is certainly of great importance to us, your opinion of how others should play and/or enjoy the game is of somewhat less importance. Currently, we favor a more inclusive approach to stretch out a bigger tent, as it were. I do not feel that players who are not (in the short or long run) interested in FL as a 'hardcore' experience bring so little to the MUD that we should let them go, if there is a way to ameliorate the things that just are not considered fun.

I absolutely do concur that this change is definitely worth reviewing with the entire playerbase. That is why I have brought it here for discussion, and I continue to welcome, and will address, your concerns.

We have the adventurer class for this reason.

The adventurer class has essentially been useless, for the simple reason that it did not go far enough. Allowing characters to rank to 30 does not allow them to get their feet wet in PK; nor does it give them any idea of the dynamics of PK'ing and equipment at high levels, which is virtually all of the 'action' occurs. The adventurer concept was a very real right step in the right direction, but not large enough. This is meant to be a continuation and expansion of the direction Virigoth took us when he first created adventurers.

[mya]

Ok, i have some concerns about this.

The standard (protected) ones, can only be dispensed of 2 rares, correct.

What will happen when the veterans start to play a standard (protected) character ? They will mostly hoard the Uniques/ Uber rares, to offset the slight less rares. A warrior with 10-12 uber rares is still a equal match to a full rare hardcore warrior.

But now when he loses he only loses 2 rares, and he only can lose them once, because a HC cannot kill him again.

But he can come and kills you once and twice and a third time and slowly loot himself back.

[Raargant]

Ok, i have some concerns about this.

The standard (protected) ones, can only be dispensed of 2 rares, correct.

What will happen when the veterans start to play a standard (protected) character ? They will mostly hoard the Uniques/ Uber rares, to offset the slight less rares. A warrior with 10-12 uber rares is still a equal match to a full rare hardcore warrior.

But now when he loses he only loses 2 rares, and he only can lose them once, because a HC cannot kill him again.

But he can come and kills you once and twice and a third time and slowly loot himself back.

To start with, I do not believe any veterans will want to play a 'standard' character, for the simple purpose that they are too limited, in terms of rares as well as in terms of cabal advancement/qrace/qclasses.

In addition, as I noted in the thread, if a 'standard' character attacks a 'hardcore' character that had previously killed him, the protection is immediately wiped, similar to 'ghost' effect. I do not see this as being an issue.

[Imoutgoodbye]

bleh...Raargant got it.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

When I made my post about 'anything you have to apply for you must be hardcore', I was including cabals. Only for the basis of cabals and qclasses/races were meant to be set apart. That's why they are applied for, and granted. You have to prove to the respective Immortal that you're devout and worthy for it. Nothing screams devotion more than an unwillingness to put your life in harm's way, yes? Nothing screams devotion more than putting your shinies above everything else, yes? Cabals should be hardcore if nothing more than it makes much more sense RP-wise.

Now, before you say "But how will newer players learn about cabals, you jackass?", give me a moment or two more before you retaliate. It's going to be harsh, BUT newer players shouldn't be in a cabal. If they get frustrated over normal PvP, cabal life only compounds it. They can 'standard' or 'Pk-lite' or 'princess' it all they want to get their feet wet. But if they want to join a cabal for their next character, they should go full out- because that's what a cabal is all about. It's NOT about getting new nifty powers. It's NOT about getting a nice color tag. It's NOT about 'min-maxing' your character. It's about joining an organization with your whole self, your precious shinies included.

Now, rebutt.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Now, rebutt.

I can't. The sole ability of a standard player to get into a cabal or how many can get into a cabal if any, is currently being left up to cabal IMM's. We may see a mix of some with a few and some with none, but probably never anything greater than a 30%/70% ratio with the standards on the lower end.

EDIT: Also, I don't think there's going to be any PK-Lite involved in cabal warfare. You still have to participate in the full brutal way, which nullifies the immunity.

[L-A]

To start with, I do not believe any veterans will want to play a 'standard' character, for the simple purpose that they are too limited, in terms of rares as well as in terms of cabal advancement/qrace/qclasses.

I don't believe this. There are certain players who would never touch a SC character - myself and several of the other long playing vets come to mind.

However, I see many people who are good players who are going to be willing to go the SC route and make themselves almost loot proof - and its only going to take one to die, lose two rares on a cleric or shaman and then kill off the attacker 5 ticks later (we all know it can be done) and its going to be a pretty sad day.

Highly survivable classes are going ot get a huge help as in the event that melee DOES track them down and dispose of them they can't significantly knobble knobble them enough to stop them showing up in record time. I've have several melee's jumped by communers before I can even fully heal - especially if I've put away a shaman and I'm curing off his mals before I rest.

I think you should be able to take more than 2 items and some gold. Losing half your rares still pretty much leaves you in the game if you grab some non-rare out of your locker. This may just give players some pause instead of them rushing in again for a cheap kill.

On another note - will HC and SC flags be displayed to players?

L-A

[Raargant]

When I made my post about 'anything you have to apply for you must be hardcore', I was including cabals. Only for the basis of cabals and qclasses/races were meant to be set apart. That's why they are applied for, and granted. You have to prove to the respective Immortal that you're devout and worthy for it. Nothing screams devotion more than an unwillingness to put your life in harm's way, yes? Nothing screams devotion more than putting your shinies above everything else, yes? Cabals should be hardcore if nothing more than it makes much more sense RP-wise.

Now, before you say "But how will newer players learn about cabals, you jackass?", give me a moment or two more before you retaliate. It's going to be harsh, BUT newer players shouldn't be in a cabal. If they get frustrated over normal PvP, cabal life only compounds it. They can 'standard' or 'Pk-lite' or 'princess' it all they want to get their feet wet. But if they want to join a cabal for their next character, they should go full out- because that's what a cabal is all about. It's NOT about getting new nifty powers. It's NOT about getting a nice color tag. It's NOT about 'min-maxing' your character. It's about joining an organization with your whole self, your precious shinies included.

Now, rebutt.

Thank you for the clarification on what you meant by 'needs applying for'. Here are my thoughts.

Although I agree with your views on what caballed life represents, caballed life also represents perhaps the largest part of the day-to-day going ons of your average pinn. Cabal PK, cabal politics, and cabal RP represents a tremendous part of the life of most any random character, and I do not see a compelling reason for preventing SC characters from accessing this.

As I mentioned in a post some time ago, this is not meant to be an 'inferior' tier, but an 'alternate' tier in addition to being a 'newbie' tier. Let me postulate a hypothetical person, who may never be interested in multikilling and full-loots, but who otherwise enjoys this MUD. However, these two often-complained about issues are killing his or her enjoyment of this MUD, and eventually drives said person to leave. Here is my question. Under the current situation, his choices are to either 'suck it up'/'harden up', or to leave. He isn't interested in the degree of hardcore, and so he leaves. Is this beneficial to the MUD? Did he bring so little to the MUD that his leaving would not be a detriment? Is he really so unimportant that we should not address his concerns and ameliorate the issues which are ruining his fun?

My answer to all of these questions is a resounding, 'no'. That type of player does bring value, richness, and depth to the MUD even if he doesn't enjoy the 'hardcore'ness of the PK aspect, and I want to create a system where both he, and more 'hardcore' players, both can by and large enjoy the game in the style which they prefer. Such a system is not credible if it totally excludes them from caballed life, which represents such a large part of the life of the average character at level 50.

[Imoutgoodbye]

However, I see many people who are good players who are going to be willing to go the SC route and make themselves almost loot proof - and its only going to take one to die, lose two rares on a cleric or shaman and then kill off the attacker 5 ticks later (we all know it can be done) and its going to be a pretty sad day.

L-A

I can already do that with an invoker when the fight was close. Attack a mob, flee, run back, and ice storm.

Also, if said player is that good, they might get a nudge into the hardcore category? *chuckle* Actually, yes, that should happen. I couldn't think of any better punishment than this.

[Evangelion]

I may not have read thoroughly enough, but would the standard player rare system be similar to a certain quest class rare system, in that it includes rares in your inventory? I think I'd like that better than not, because I'd rather not see a standard character able to hold on to four hot-**** weapons, in addition to ten hot-**** rares, just because every time an HC player kills them they only lose two.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I may not have read thoroughly enough' date=' but would the standard player rare system be similar to a certain quest class rare system, in that it includes rares in your inventory? I think I'd like that better than not, because I'd rather not see a standard character able to hold on to four hot-**** weapons, in addition to ten hot-**** rares, just because every time an HC player kills them they only lose two.[/quote']

If you had read it all, Crusaders were brought up.

[Raargant]

I don't believe this. There are certain players who would never touch a SC character - myself and several of the other long playing vets come to mind.

However, I see many people who are good players who are going to be willing to go the SC route and make themselves almost loot proof - and its only going to take one to die, lose two rares on a cleric or shaman and then kill off the attacker 5 ticks later (we all know it can be done) and its going to be a pretty sad day.

Highly survivable classes are going ot get a huge help as in the event that melee DOES track them down and dispose of them they can't significantly knobble knobble them enough to stop them showing up in record time. I've have several melee's jumped by communers before I can even fully heal - especially if I've put away a shaman and I'm curing off his mals before I rest.

I think you should be able to take more than 2 items and some gold. Losing half your rares still pretty much leaves you in the game if you grab some non-rare out of your locker. This may just give players some pause instead of them rushing in again for a cheap kill.

On another note - will HC and SC flags be displayed to players?

L-A

I will address most of this post later; I've been at the airport (delayed flight) and I think my flight just came in. One quick comment; yes, I would like to see the HC/SC flags displayed, sort of like how bountied players are currently displayed. Perhaps a nice skull-like symbol next to the HC players?

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Although I agree with your views on what caballed life represents' date=' caballed life also represents perhaps the largest part of the day-to-day going ons of your average pinn. Cabal PK, cabal politics, and cabal RP represents a tremendous part of the life of most any random character, and I do not see a compelling reason for preventing SC characters from accessing this.[/quote']

Cabal members are not meant to be average. They were always meant to be a slight step above, since their responsibilities dictated much of their existence.

I not saying "No Newbie! You cannot join a Cabal!" I am saying "Yes! You can join a Cabal, and here's how it works. You will no longer be protected. You will be exposed to the utter harshness of cabal life. It will be hard. It will be tough. The perks will be less than you expected skill-wise, but the RP is where you will be fully rewarded. The immense struggles and battles will be more fulfilling. Still wanna sign up?"