Non-illithid Necros?

[WagesofSin]

A quickie: I was wondering why it is rare for people to go Necro with anything but Illithid? Compared to the other races, are illithids really so much more powerful?

[Evangelion]

Illithids have the shock ability, which takes your mana and turns it into some hp when you would normally die. This appeals to many people, because it's an extra buffer against death as a necromancer.

They also get a huge amount of mana and hp, and have probably the best stats for a necromancer. And finally, leech and cone of force are some really awesome abilities, when properly used.

[mya]

And two resistences... and a Vuln.

It's the perfect Necro race.

[Nekky]

A vuln that is only readily exploited in any real way by invokers or maybe good clerics.

Any weapons that exploit it are either very low av-dam, or rare as rare can be.

[corpsestomp]

On Achvaahs, with some equipment substitution, I could have gotten nearly 1200 hp. It would have meant awful saves and mediocre AC, but the fact remains, I could have had more hp than anything but an ogre.

Another couple reasons...they learn stuff in 1 practice, and get 4 a level. I've also noticed they have a much easier time raising zombies when at equal levels to any other race.

[Quigt]

It's a vuln that's hard to be exploited by warriors.

[mya]

I could have gotten nearly 1200 hp. It would have meant awful saves and mediocre AC

Very bad idea. You would be isolated by clerics, dispelled by mages, and Wrathed by Paladins.

[Pali]

I play Illithids because it wouldn't make sense to RP a drow like a Borg.

[Kyzarius]

Illithids necros if done right have the ability to not only put you to sleep, but can shut you down from the opening strike till your dead...totally destroying a slept enemy without them so much as being able to fart.

[goldbond]

wow people can still actually be slept at 50? are you talking about naked giants or something?

[corpsestomp]

Landing sleep at 50 is rare, but if you do, it's pretty much all over(if you're an illithid).

[Kyzarius]

savant illi necros with a certain light can lay you down to nap quite often.

[mya]

Yes, you can get sleeped at 50. As with any spell, even if you have 1000 saves there is always a chance for it to land.

That is why a smart player uses Poison.

Even when sleept, there is no assurance that you will die.

I have for years frustated Necros on my Paladins and others by doing something different than you guys. By having good Mal Saves instead of Riduculous High Aff saves.

There is nothing like being sleept and regenerate while they waste mana and cannot land a single spell or just one.

But Santuary drop can be a pain.

[Anoneemus]

Sleep isn't afflictive. Afflictive is arguably the least useful of all saves (edit: For non-rogues).

[English lad]

Yeah - and also who loads up on Aff saves on a Paladin.

Mental saves with a bit of Mal I would have thought. You can cure the most common mals, and with Sanctuary + Protection and cure crit, spike damage from high damage spells is as much of a worry as it is for some classes.

[Deykari]

Having ridiculously high amounts of any saves is just pointless once you hit a certain point, for any class... and having really high afflictive saves can be a hinderance. Also, afflictive doesn't just deal with pure damage. For example, flamestrike/fire breath blinding checks against afflictive saves, not maledictive. Whilst I suppose I can ese how it's easier to get away with not having aff saves than it is maledictive/mental, that doesn't make them useless.

As your offensive capability drops though (lower hit/dam) then it does help to have a little more saves. I had poor afflictive saves with Pamiyn, but when you have around 60 hit and dam roll and , generally speaking the classes that use afflictive spells had a harder time (not saying I was great, just that that particular combination dealt mucho damage per round). Even in general, a nice hit/dam can sometimes let you get away with not stacking on the afflictive saves as high.

Dey

[Iusedtobesomebody]

I, for one, would eliminate all ways to poison yourself but one... make behind a few locked doors and a score of mobs who morph to +5 your level... and then make it a potion and make it expensive. It's much too easy now to avoid classes which rely on an unconscious foe. I'd make it so you'd have to work to it.

[mya]

3 classes can use well sleep taticks.

Thief, Ninjas and Necromancers.

Necromancers can PK very well without it. In fact the Sleep spell seems more designed for PK use at lower ranks, when they do not have the Heavy Zombies and enemies have lower saves.

They can also overcome poison with dispel then sleep.

Ninjas and Thieves should strike with surprise. That is the point of their class.

If you aren't smart enuff to get the surprise effect you are not worth of the sleep.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

i've never had a problem myself dealing with it. I was thinking of it on a whole scale view. if we can bitch about one class not getting to use a specific sanc source, why not three classes having multiple skills all but negated. tit for tat.

[Pali]

I' date=' for one, would eliminate all ways to poison yourself but one... make behind a few locked doors and a score of mobs who morph to +5 your level... and then make it a potion and make it expensive. It's much too easy now to avoid classes which rely on an unconscious foe. I'd make it so you'd have to work to it.[/quote']

Agreed.

[Deykari]

I disagree.

A necro doesn't need sleep to win, at all. If they catch somebody unpoisoned/poison wearing off then they can go for that sleep and try and get a nice advantage. If not, they can still kill their foe. Same goes for Shaman with one of the effects of insomnia. Both of these classes can dispel magic too, poison being able to be dispelled and the most common form being low level.

A thief can steal a sack full of poisining items from their foe and stop them poisoning themself. They have a trap that allows them to remove the poisoning effect too. Again, the most common form of poison is low-level and falls pretty easily.

Ninjas, having a little more melee power, can use the poison to their advantage. Strangle isn't as essential to a ninja as blackjack is to a thief (not saying it's not important, but IMO blackjacking on a thief is more important) and besides, there are downsides to poisoning yourself.

Firstly, the obvious one, is no regeneration. This you notice a lot when running because your moves drop quickly and you can't regenerate them quickly.

Secondly, is the damage. Sure, it's minor, but it soon becomes a little more painful when you're fleeing with awful wounds and you're poisoned. Classes that can't cure poison can only vomit once per 24 hours, that's one cure of poison per 24 hours, provided they've eaten recently.

Thieves, ninjas, necros and shaman have no problem in their ability to perform with things as they currently are provided they have a little smarts. Not to mention that there are a couple of other classes with the ability to do things that can be prevented with poison and without that, you can be considered as good as dead. Remove the ability for the rest of the playerbase to protect themselves from these skills and, well, I can't see it being a good thing...

Dey

[a-guitarist]

The only people that this really hurts, or that poisoning should really hurt, are necro's (I guess shaman?). Why? Any thief or ninja worth their weight in salt will not be seen until they want to... which means after you're either assassinated, or black jacked. Anyone can get invis potions/pills so the thief can be as hidden as a ninja or bard. Then, they just have to be patient... as with all things FL, fight when you've got the advantage. And I'm talking at 50, of course, because isn't that where the game is meant to be played? Isn't that were the game is balanced?

I can't believe Dey is the only one of you who thought to dispel poison. Not a sleight on Dey, I'm just saying that he has been here half the time most of us have. It's either you all didn't know or are guilty of the most horrible of offenses to the pbase... information hording.

Why take away poisoning? It's a great tool, and a great burden. I'm pretty sure there are ways to get people into trouble and surprise them... but before I post those for sure on how to hurt someone who has poisoned themselves (if you don't have dispel), I'm going to test them out first. So after my father's gig, I'll check them out then report back.

a-g

[L-A]

Illithids necros if done right have the ability to not only put you to sleep' date=' but can shut you down from the opening strike till your dead...totally destroying a slept enemy without them so much as being able to fart.[/quote']

Any necro can do this - and i do know what you're talking about in relation to illithids. Its a nice advantage but has its drawbacks and is by NO MEANS fate acompli in the situation you describe.

Necro'st at lvl 50 aren't scary becaue of sleep. It lands a lot less than you think. Necro's are scary because done right they can really dish it out. Done wrong they are just good to laugh at as you pump up you malform.

L-A

[L-A]

Firstly, the obvious one, is no regeneration. This you notice a lot when running because your moves drop quickly and you can't regenerate them quickly.

Exactly why my thieves don't hide and are always 'just there' when facing a poisoned opponent. Run about at bit and he's a sitting duck - dead then, not matter how good you are. You can keep them poisoned and lock them in position until they have 10 hp left and finish them. Easy.

L-A

[Kyzarius]

Any necro can do this - and i do know what you're talking about in relation to illithids. Its a nice advantage but has its drawbacks and is by NO MEANS fate acompli in the situation you describe.

Necro'st at lvl 50 aren't scary becaue of sleep. It lands a lot less than you think. Necro's are scary because done right they can really dish it out. Done wrong they are just good to laugh at as you pump up you malform.

L-A

I have pinned 3 necros in the past year, two of which where elders in cabals and two of which where illithid.

Illithid necro is the ONLY necro that can open with a stun. Ghouls touch plus "the not mentioned skill" can give 3-4 rounds of lag, throw in the inevitable bash/trip from zombies and golems and you have complete 100% lock down from start to finish. Other races have sleep but cannot open with a stun, plain and simple.

Sleep lands more often than YOU Think. Illithids have superior wisdom/int that lets their mental spells land harder, put them in savant with a certain power, tap a soul, and you already have a sleep that will be rarely resisted. With Stytnlye and Vorqwuith (the second in nexus not savant) I slept at leasy 3/4 of my foes and of those nearly 90% died wthout being able to move.

Next I bet your gonna say Powerword kill only works sometimes.

Now, necro's dont have to rely on sleep at all, but illithid necros can expect it to work more often.