Cleave

[mya]

"Yes I was referring to veil of darkness but it seems like you're saying silence/plague/poison/energy drain will help to pin down an overly evasive communer?"

I dissagree, from the point of view of a Good cleric, they will mostly have very high Mal saves. Enuff so that you will only land something with a "Natural 20".

Paladins, same stuff... as it appears Most Combos rolls with the ability to do some sort of Blasphemy.

Healers are better dressed than Adeptus.

Shamans, with no need for Hit/Dam will also get high saves.

So that leaves Evil clerics and Giant Clerics G/E. As they normally have hybrid equipment, so they might be easyer to spell up.

But anyway what is a DK trying to Silence,Poison,Plague a Communer ? They probably spend less mana curing it than you to cast it.

I wouldnt Dirt, Rescue be better ?

[Mudder]

Yes. I think my enlarged stone warrior with a 108% in bash SHOULD land more bashes and more effective ones when they land than my enlarged human DK + Warlock.

Yet that was/is not the case. Though funny you say lucky, my DK did have the lucky perk.

Lamah, Minotaur, Zehava, Ogre, Zebb, Ogre?

I have fought Lamah with both my Warrior and DK. I would disagree that Lamah lagged me better than a DK + Warlock combo. Strongly disagree.

Yes. Veil of Darkness + energy drain, maybe curse. You could throw a plague in the mix but I wouldn't think it worth the extra effort. I never used poison/plague at 50, its too weak and doesn't last long enough. However the first two I mentioned should be more than enough to send any caster/communer running for the hills... And have a damn hard time finding those hills.

Monks are not the best laggers. Their lag is random and pretty unpredictable. Though their strength lies in that they can lag the normally unlaggable. I have played many monks and fought many monks.

In the name of pure lag, I would take a DK + Warlock or a Necro with full Travens over a monk ANY day.

[corpsestomp]

Even with 3 Travens, I had a hard time pinning someone down. It doesn't help that they go back to human(illithid) size when you log back in. That said, I'd take a Necro too.

[Pali]

Travens are by a fair margin not the best lagging mob for a necro.

[Grosek_]

Try hasting yourself and having your weapon blessed by a cleric or healer first. Something Virigoth would always rant about.

[mya]

Cleric only, its a Rank 32 spell.

And Clerics are quite rare this days.

[tassinvegeta]

Yes. I think my enlarged stone warrior with a 108% in bash SHOULD land more bashes and more effective ones when they land than my enlarged human DK + Warlock.

Yet that was/is not the case. Though funny you say lucky, my DK did have the lucky perk.

Lamah, Minotaur, Zehava, Ogre, Zebb, Ogre?

I have fought Lamah with both my Warrior and DK. I would disagree that Lamah lagged me better than a DK + Warlock combo. Strongly disagree.

Yes. Veil of Darkness + energy drain, maybe curse. You could throw a plague in the mix but I wouldn't think it worth the extra effort. I never used poison/plague at 50, its too weak and doesn't last long enough. However the first two I mentioned should be more than enough to send any caster/communer running for the hills... And have a damn hard time finding those hills.

Monks are not the best laggers. Their lag is random and pretty unpredictable. Though their strength lies in that they can lag the normally unlaggable. I have played many monks and fought many monks.

In the name of pure lag, I would take a DK + Warlock or a Necro with full Travens over a monk ANY day.

Lol lucky perk and Zebb was a Fire btw. But If i'm not mistaken Lamah nearly lagged locked Kongol each encounter and actually killed him the first time when his eq was far superior to mine by combining enlarged bashes and charge. And against Tnaris, Lamah lagged locked him completely during the battles that we had (though I remember your warlock stopped me for only a moment with its bash only during one encounter), its hard to see a dk+warlock in my place doing better than that

Nethertheless my purpose was to point out the dk's inability to lag classes with protective shield while being a class that is dependant on its success by finishing their opponents within a certain time frame. Shouldn't this give them even more of a reason to have access to charge moreso than other chargeable classess?

Regarding mal choice I do agree with veil if you can land it but why gamble so many rounds based on percentages in a case where yours aren't very high when dirt is the more dependable choice? In most cases all you're doing is giving them more of an opportunity to outmelee you or throw more things at you.

[Mudder]

Your right. Lamah DID lag Kongol. Kongol was fighting your guardian and you landed a bash as his sanctuary faded. Except that was Lamah + Dragon. That was not purely Lamah and if you remember, I managed to flee. By the way, you actually never landed a charge on Kongol that he did not counter.

After that you never lag locked Kongol for more than 3 rounds. Ever. In fact, I think Kongol lagged you more than you did him. Though our Warrior fights were mostly... Who bashed who first. Lol.

Tnaris was not usually completely lag locked. Though you did lag him a lot. If that was the case, you would have killed him much more than you actually did. If I remember correctly, our battles were fairly close much of the time. I remember clearly putting mals on you like "veil of darkness." Something that cannot be done if lag locked.

DKs inability to lag classes with protective shield... DKs have more offense than most Warriors. Access to mals. Now you want to lag caster/communers? You must be kidding. If unholy strength is such a problem for you, don't use it.

I never used unholy strength for any battle I thought would be long or drawn out. DKs can fight a drawn out battle. They just need to take proper precautions.

Veil of darkness. In a typical fight, it landed on about the 4th cast. And no, it does not replace dirt either.

[a-guitarist]

"Yes I was referring to veil of darkness but it seems like you're saying silence/plague/poison/energy drain will help to pin down an overly evasive communer?"

I dissagree, from the point of view of a Good cleric, they will mostly have very high Mal saves. Enuff so that you will only land something with a "Natural 20".

Paladins, same stuff... as it appears Most Combos rolls with the ability to do some sort of Blasphemy.

Healers are better dressed than Adeptus.

Shamans, with no need for Hit/Dam will also get high saves.

So that leaves Evil clerics and Giant Clerics G/E. As they normally have hybrid equipment, so they might be easyer to spell up.

But anyway what is a DK trying to Silence,Poison,Plague a Communer ? They probably spend less mana curing it than you to cast it.

I wouldnt Dirt, Rescue be better ?

She's got some points here that made me ponder for a while. Maybe upping the cost of the cure spells? Furthermore, upping the cost of healer cure's (hp, and mal cures) would force them to have be wiser with Mana in a fight... and might allow them to get more aggressive in pk.

If a paladin can drop a cure blindness and run back into combat with no worries, because a blindness spell will cost more than the cure... the blind slinging class can't win attrition style. Probably because they aren't a martial class and the paladin is, as well. Look at clerics, as well... they're defensive as a mofo. They can take a beating and still pump out cures to HP and Maledictives, at little cost. Maybe, either, up the lag on the spells or mana cost or both?

Healers... they're my biggest gripe in the game. They can't actively PK... because they're a freaking monster if they do. You just can't kill them... so how about making them slightly more offensive, and a lot less defensive? Not to the point of clerics, but, you get the idea.

Make their cure spells a little better than others? So, cure crit may do 25 hp with a paladin, but 35 with a healer... and the healer's cure crit will cost 25% more mana. "OH no! Healers this would ruin healers and mana!" No... it will make them be wiser with what they cast. They can't cast combat spells anywyas... they get what? Curse? Dispel? That's about as crazy as they get. So, make them worry about spamming too many cure crits when they should out damage someone with a dispel... and take away a defense. Don't they have parry and shield block? Drop parry or shield block. They can't parry for crap anyways with their maces/flails... so take it away.

This way, they can die easier, and on one can bitch about them being active Tribunals busting Criminals. If they're supposed to be nonaggressive to the living... then why the hell can they walk around with a guard allow it to beat the ever loving crap outta some guy.... "I didn't raise a hand, I'm not responsible." didn't work for a lot of war criminals, but it seems to work for the good healer that wants to kill people. "I just told others to do it... I'm free and clear." At that rate, why not let a good order a hit on another good through bounties?

Hrm, turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry.

a-g

[tassinvegeta]

Your right. Lamah DID lag Kongol. Kongol was fighting your guardian and you landed a bash as his sanctuary faded. Except that was Lamah + Dragon. That was not purely Lamah and if you remember' date=' I managed to flee. By the way, you actually never landed a charge on Kongol that he did not counter.[/quote']

Yeah my dragon did land a bash while I kicked dirt. Though if the dragon didn't bash I would have. And no your sanctuary didn't fade I'm pretty sure I would've seen it. Though once you fled and I got a charge in right before the tick ran off which you rightfully so countered but had I got to you a mili-second sooner you wouldn't have been able to counter that one. I then kicked dirt in your eyes before you fled then I got you with charge that did not get countered because you were in addition disorientated from the dirt in your eyes. My point being reinterated is that it was the combination of bashes and charges that got you.

After that you never lag locked Kongol for more than 3 rounds. Ever. In fact' date=' I think Kongol lagged you more than you did him. Though our Warrior fights were mostly... Who bashed who first. Lol.[/quote']

Are you serious? I never lagged you more than 3 rounds? You must not have played Kongol then lol. And yes i'm sure you lagged me just as long if not longer.

Tnaris was not usually completely lag locked. Though you did lag him a lot. If that was the case' date=' you would have killed him much more than you actually did. If I remember correctly, our battles were fairly close much of the time. I remember clearly putting mals on you like "veil of darkness." Something that cannot be done if lag locked.[/quote']

Hmm I think you have a bit of a bad memory. But one thing I'll say is that magic strike is the main reason you got mals on me. The other is that I usually go mostly full hit/dam no saves against melees.

DKs inability to lag classes with protective shield... DKs have more offense than most Warriors. Access to mals. Now you want to lag caster/communers? You must be kidding. If unholy strength is such a problem for you' date=' don't use it.[/quote']

Again I disagree my warriors have just as much or more offense than any of my dk's. You can compare my hit/dam with lamah's and drayson's retirement posts and see that. I've played 3 decently successful examples of each to show, all probably still in this forum. With regards to mals again, from past experience I've learned not to use them and they only started becoming useful again after I heard about the change to magic missile. And are you kidding? Don't use unholy strength? Don't think I'll even reply to that. Actually I think I'll give you a funny example of how I see what you just said. Person A complains my battlemages have a hard time because I can't keep up key spells during the length of a super battle. Mudder replies if its so much of a problem for you don't use any spells at all -wink-wink- Person A replies wow I never thought of that, thanks Mudder you're my hero.

Seems my original argument got derailed quite a bit. -sigh-

[Mudder]

You say the main reason Tnaris landed mals is because of magic strike? And I have a bad memory? Let me tell you a little secret. Tnaris was never trained. Magic strike never did a single thing for him.

Unholy strength is not a "key" spell for a DK. It's nice in certain situations. But like all skills/spells, it will not always be most beneficial.

[tassinvegeta]

You say the main reason Tnaris landed mals is because of magic strike? And I have a bad memory? Let me tell you a little secret. Tnaris was never trained. Magic strike never did a single thing for him.

Unholy strength is not a "key" spell for a DK. It's nice in certain situations. But like all skills/spells, it will not always be most beneficial.

Ok I'll continue to try to give you the benefit of doubt. Though I did say I had few saves when I fought Tnaris. Also out of curiosity you say magic strike wasn't trained but was veil of darkness mastered? And I'm quite shocked you would try to cast mals against me while I was bashing and out damaging you during those small windows where you could.

So you don't believe unholy strength is a key spell for dk's, hmm interesting. Do you feel the same way about malforms and charm person? What about vampires and fighting during the day? Thieves and blackjack/traps?

[Mudder]

Tass. Saying that a DKs ability revolves around unholy strength is just stupid. It is a good boost, but no where near necessity. And like I said, Tnaris was not trained. No spells mastered except the obvious... Fireball, etc.

You were complaining that you cannot lag caster/communer. You really think DKs need that? They would be totally overpowered if they could.

[tassinvegeta]

Sounds like someone is getting a little upset, think I'll just leave you be.

[ajwetton]

She's got some points here that made me ponder for a while. Maybe upping the cost of the cure spells? Furthermore, upping the cost of healer cure's (hp, and mal cures) would force them to have be wiser with Mana in a fight... and might allow them to get more aggressive in pk.

If a paladin can drop a cure blindness and run back into combat with no worries, because a blindness spell will cost more than the cure... the blind slinging class can't win attrition style. Probably because they aren't a martial class and the paladin is, as well. Look at clerics, as well... they're defensive as a mofo. They can take a beating and still pump out cures to HP and Maledictives, at little cost. Maybe, either, up the lag on the spells or mana cost or both?

Healers... they're my biggest gripe in the game. They can't actively PK... because they're a freaking monster if they do. You just can't kill them... so how about making them slightly more offensive, and a lot less defensive? Not to the point of clerics, but, you get the idea.

Make their cure spells a little better than others? So, cure crit may do 25 hp with a paladin, but 35 with a healer... and the healer's cure crit will cost 25% more mana. "OH no! Healers this would ruin healers and mana!" No... it will make them be wiser with what they cast. They can't cast combat spells anywyas... they get what? Curse? Dispel? That's about as crazy as they get. So, make them worry about spamming too many cure crits when they should out damage someone with a dispel... and take away a defense. Don't they have parry and shield block? Drop parry or shield block. They can't parry for crap anyways with their maces/flails... so take it away.

This way, they can die easier, and on one can bitch about them being active Tribunals busting Criminals. If they're supposed to be nonaggressive to the living... then why the hell can they walk around with a guard allow it to beat the ever loving crap outta some guy.... "I didn't raise a hand, I'm not responsible." didn't work for a lot of war criminals, but it seems to work for the good healer that wants to kill people. "I just told others to do it... I'm free and clear." At that rate, why not let a good order a hit on another good through bounties?

Hrm, turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry.

a-g

Yes it did turn into a Rant and guess what, THEY NOT SUPPOSED TO BE OFFENSIVE, I play a healer first thing every time I come back they're my favorite class in the game. And trust me they can still burn through mana. try dropping 200 mana for one chance at ressing someone and then getting that OH so wonderful affect that even with 50 mystic healing drops your mana regen to crap. And everyone keeps talking about healers in Trib, thats ONE instance where they can be a real beast. I've ran them in every cabal that has combat about it except savant. They're not overpowered in Knight even against all those evils by anymeans.

Giving Healers more offensive capability and lessing the defensive capabilities would make them clerics. They are supposed to revere life. I've played Trib Healers and Justice Healers, even had Leader of Justice and was by no means un-killable, it just took some work for them to do it. And EVERY time I had to send someone for execution it would tear the character up emotionally. I'd try to convince people to NOT break laws that would force me to kill them. And in theory your saving citizens of the cities from someone running rampant and killing people etc... So in one death while tragic your potentially saving hundreds or more. I think that players forget that those NPC's in town are supposed to represent average ordinary people. And we get so in the mindset of just the 14 or so people on are the only thing in the game. Healers should revere those lives as well. I could go on but i've ranted enough about people bashing healers today.

[a-guitarist]

I never said they were unkillable... I don't think at least. Heh. Anyways, you can make them more offensive and less defensive without making clerics. My example was one way of doing it. Okay, maybe I didn't flag it as sarcasm... but if you die as a Healer, you're probably doing eight other things while your mudding. (Email, Cell Phone, YahooIM, Porn, Painting, and Working on your car)

I didn't mean to sound like I feel healer's don't have to worry about mana... they do. But, I'm talking combat.... I don't give a crap if Ressurrection cost the Healer 100% of their mana to cast it... doesn't do crap in combat. So, in combat, healer's just cast Cure Crit and they're fine... if they've got a charmie to back them up. If you're fighting when you're not ready, that isn't the fault of anyone but yourself, in my eyes, so flee until you're ready (100% mana and HP)

They've got killer AC, they've got awesome Defenses.... and that's fine with me... if they can't pk or join PK cabals. Healers are broken in any cabal, in my eyes, just like any good in Justice (again, in my eyes). If Healers revered life, then that's great and all. Let them kill one person to save a thousand more, or ten more, or whatever... but then let them do that through RP and kill some Evil who is going to murder a thousand other mortals...

The point of a Healer is great, it's awesome, I love it. It just doesn't fit FL (not for RP, but because FL is all about PK). As for Healers in Trib, I hate Goods in Tribs, and I hate Evils in Trib. I feel, and always have (even when they were Justices), that Law Cabals should be Neutral only.

And, man. Ef'n Kudos to you for playing your Characters as if the Mobs are real people just like the Players are. I find myself forgetting that often, and I always try and justify why my Goods are killing some Neutral Human for some crappy piece of gear or potion. Just doesn't make sense to me, so I try and avoid it ... but I can't all the time.

Tooling around Emerald with a Neutral awhile back, killing farmers. An imm takes over Maddie and throws a fit 'cause I'm beating her boyfriend up and killing him. "Whoops" is all I could really say. Did some Balance of the power RP, chatted back and forth with Maddie, a Farmer, and myself... ended up getting a Desc approval, race restring and dragon out of it. Then stopped the character because I didn't like my RP I was doing. I was killing Mobs because to me they were meaningless... then I realized that they aren't and I totally botched my RP.

I'm verbose today. Sorry.

a-g

[mya]

A-G when was the last time you played a Healer ?

Healers don't spam 'Cure critical', they spam Heal. 100 HP at 35 mana cost 1 round lag. That is why they are called HEALers....

"They've got killer AC, they've got awesome Defenses."

They have the AC their equipment gives them. Like all mages, they only get the Armor,Shield,Stoneskin spells. That is -80 AC which anyone can get with consumables.

They also do not have awesome defences. They have the regular defences that Clerics and Shamans have. The only classes worse than them are Mages that only have Parry.

But i do agree with you that seing a Healer in Justice, capturing and executing people. It makes my eyes roll around...

[ajwetton]

Yes people say that about healers in justice/trib all the time, but they have an RP to it usually and if it works for them its valid unless IMMs say it isn't. its just their spin on it. ITs all about interpratation.

[tassinvegeta]

I see little difference between a healer or vampire in trib. They both fight for the same reasons but are just from different backgrounds. I love the rp opportunities trib provides, makes the game more exciting (hint to those whom prefer reversion).

[a-guitarist]

A-G when was the last time you played a Healer ?

Healers don't spam 'Cure critical', they spam Heal. 100 HP at 35 mana cost 1 round lag. That is why they are called HEALers....

"They've got killer AC, they've got awesome Defenses."

They have the AC their equipment gives them. Like all mages, they only get the Armor,Shield,Stoneskin spells. That is -80 AC which anyone can get with consumables.

They also do not have awesome defences. They have the regular defences that Clerics and Shamans have. The only classes worse than them are Mages that only have Parry.

But i do agree with you that seing a Healer in Justice, capturing and executing people. It makes my eyes roll around...

I stopped playing my Healer two weeks ago.... anyways.

I guess I have to learn that when I want to get on my high horse I have to find out who I might piss off as I climb to their level so that I can use the correct lingo...

"Defenses" can be used to mean "parry, shield, dodge, etc." yeah... but it can also be used to describe, "Parry, shield, dodge, Devine Retrobution, Barrier, some D.I's, Spirit Shield, and Gate" I've seen it used in both forms on this forum. So, for later when I'm gonna upset people who love tea parties, I'll just remember to use the term, "defenses and defensive spells"

But, Healers, yeah. -80 AC. Just like everyone else that wants to have consumables. But... now they don't have to carry all those herbs and potions, they don't have to worry about not being able to use them if blind. Anyways, not an issue I'm bitching about. The fact is they get it as a bonus in my eyes because they don't have collect them, they have them already.

As for heal, yeah. Heh, got me there. But, the point is the same... and I thought that my healer got bashed with a 2 round lag on Heal spells. My memory sucks, and you beat me up because of it. Mya, how do you feel? Beating up on the kid who has memory problems?

And for Vamps in trib and healers being similiar, yeah. Just like apples and oranges both grow on trees and can be used as sex toys... Vamps in Trib don't get protection from other Undeads. Healers in Trib don't lose anything, they gain it. But, you are right. RP is AWESOME, when done right. Anything is possible with RP, and if I see someone play a character because they want to play it for RP reasons, not because "I won't die with this combo." I get really happy. Don't think I'm bitching about everyone having bad RP... I really don't think that. It's just a lot of people pick their Race Class Cabal because they want to pwn, which is okay... it is a game. Just don't try to convince me that someone picks a Halfling Blademaster Warmaster or Ogre Warrior Nexus because they want to RP it. (oh, and I am "guilty" of this, too.)

a-g

[Mudder]

"Vamps in Trib don't get protection from other Undeads."

Sorry Pali. But I must correct you on this one. That is a false statement. Martineius lost protection from other undeads for the sole reason that he captured and killed another undead.

EDITED: I meant A-G. Not Pali. Sorry Pali.

[Pali]

"Vamps in Trib don't get protection from other Undeads."

Sorry Pali. But I must correct you on this one. That is a false statement. Martineius lost protection from other undeads for the sole reason that he captured and killed another undead.

Since when were A-G and I the same person?

[a-guitarist]

"Vamps in Trib don't get protection from other Undeads."

Sorry Pali. But I must correct you on this one. That is a false statement. Martineius lost protection from other undeads for the sole reason that he captured and killed another undead.

EDITED: I meant A-G. Not Pali. Sorry Pali.

I wasn't aware of why it happened, but if you play an Undead Justice and don't capture undeads, you won't be a Justice for much longer.... so any undead in that cabal will lose the protection, I guess, so that is why I put that up there.

And, it's alright. I don't mind being called Pali... he is delicious.

a-g

[Pali]

I wasn't aware of why it happened' date=' but if you play an Undead Justice and don't capture undeads, you won't be a Justice for much longer.... so any undead in that cabal will lose the protection, I guess, so that is why I put that up there.[/quote']

In principle I'd agree... even before actually attempting to ever capture an undead, Vhalen was shunned by all the others when I went Trib with him too.

And, it's alright. I don't mind being called Pali... he is delicious.

a-g

I'm not touching that.

[Deykari]

I wasn't aware of why it happened, but if you play an Undead Justice and don't capture undeads, you won't be a Justice for much longer.... so any undead in that cabal will lose the protection, I guess, so that is why I put that up there.

And, it's alright. I don't mind being called Pali... he is delicious.

a-g

I see it akin as to how a healer can justify capturing a goodie.

Dey