US presidential election...

[KRins]

There is almost no way we will even repay all our of debts. Trillions of dollars just aren't available. Increased taxes would just increase our insane crime rates, as more and more people would turn to drugs from financial dispair, selling said drugs to make enough money to get by, or robbing/assaulting/murdering people for their wallets... We, the People, have epicly failed...

[Lexi]

I am sorry, but I do not see the connection between high taxes and drugs/crimes. Do you have anything to support that claim? It'd be interesting to know.

[Kyzarius]

I am sorry' date=' but I do not see the connection between high taxes and drugs/crimes. Do you have anything to support that claim? It'd be interesting to know.[/quote']

The concept is that high taxes reduces the houshold take home capital thus causeing more people to have to resort to "off color methods" of getting money to support their families.

Kind of like how record rises in gas prices has caused an increase in tank siphoning and pump and drive thefts.

[a-guitarist]

Alright, everyone, pull out your small violins... a-g's got a story for you.

As Krins' already said.. our system is totally messed up to begin with. I am on government mandated health care.... and when I had to switch to it, everything was fine for a couple of months. Then they decided to "change your plan to better suit your needs!", and none of the medications I was on I could take anymore. And, my copays went through the freaking roof.

To take Prevacid again, I had to start with the OTC stuff and work my way up the chain until I reached Prevacid, just like I did a couple of years ago before I was prescribed that. They didn't care that I had already done that, and when they finally listened to me and approved the script... the next time I went in for a refill... the same **** started. "You have to get prier approval."

Sure, my Psych Meds were totally taken care of. But, my allergy medication, my acid reflux meds, my blood meds, all their copays went through the damned roof. (Of which I was paying 2 to 3 dollars for, and after the changing of coverage to "better suit your needs." happened, I was paying double that. Doesn't sound rough, but when you are making $450 a month, it gets a little tight. Even more so when those infinitely ingenious bastards also stopped covering all my doctors visits. So, I was paying for half of my Psych appointments afterwords fully AND most of my Medical appointments to check up on my body.

Why so many medical appointments? The Meds from the Psych drugs pooched my blood and my stomach and some other things that I will not mention. Add in the emergency room trips, and now you've got a guy who then has to decide "Do I pay for my Meds I was told I need to survive, do I pay for my doctor visits to get said meds, do I pay my student loans, do I pay other random medical bills, or do I put gas in my car?"

I'm not looking for Sympathy, I'm just explaining how that sure, Socialized health care may work elsewhere but here in the States it's a complete cluster-****.

By the way, a few months ago I was told "you were never sick to begin with, sorry, my bad." and then released from care. Due to treatment, I have (potentially permanent, think each "problem" with a -1 tick counter on it) cognitive damage and Tardive Dyskinesia. Why? Because of my limited personal funds and government run healthcare, I had only certain places I could go for care... and got the bottom of the barrel for treatment. Had I gone to a place that I picked, where I had good report with the doctors, and had American doctors (not racist, not bigoted, I like to understand my doctors, and I like doctors who understand my cultural background. My first two doctors came from countries where they literally beat and then imprisoned the mentally ill. Yikes... )

And since the people in charge of my health have put a limit on how much my health and well-being are worth... I can't get "treatment" for the now two "life long" illness I've got due to botched treatment. Now... what does this tell you? The US can't even take care of the portion of people it currently takes care of Health Care for... how the hell are they going to do it for the whole population?

Also, US companies are greedy sunsabatchs.... so when they find out they don't have to foot the bill for health care anymore, even MORE people are going to lose private health care.

I'm jealous the system works for you. I'm jealous that you don't have to pay through the nose in taxes and I'm jealous that you live on an island. But, that sounds like freaking Utopia to me, and frankly... I don't believe it exists. To me, I think you may just be an Obama agent, planted here years ago under the guise of telling a bunch of the important MUD community to vote Obama for his health care. Believe it or not, we are an important swing vote category. I'm on to you, you "Kiwi"! I'm on to you!

a-g

Okay, our votes don't count for crap. I just made that part up.

[goldbond]

the Obaminati :eek:

[Lexi]

The concept is that high taxes reduces the houshold take home capital thus causeing more people to have to resort to "off color methods" of getting money to support their families.

Kind of like how record rises in gas prices has caused an increase in tank siphoning and pump and drive thefts.

I pay roughly 30% of my income in taxes, and I've never felt a need to resort to "off color methods", and I don't even have a well-paid job, I don't have any university education, etc. I happily pay my taxes, because I know I will get healthcare, I know university will be free once I realize what career I want to pursuit, I know dental will also be fairly cheap (even though they've increased the cost over the last decade). As a whole, I think my family gets out more from the well-fare than we put into it. And that is the point really, the guy earning 100,000 pays 30,000 in taxes, the guy earning 5,000 pays 1,500 in taxes. Who contributes more to the well-fare? The rich guy. And who does well-fare benefit most? The poor guy.

Anyway, that's why I'm interested in knowing if you can back up your statement on high taxes = crimes/drugs. Is it something you have read? Or heard? Is it from a reliable source, or someone on the street said so? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to be convinced before I believe you. That might make me more inclined to change my opinion on taxes.

EDIT:

I pay around 13 SEK for a liter of gas. That's like a little more than 2 dollars per liter. I'm not really familiar with US gas prices, but I guess I'm paying more than you (also, you buy in gallons instead of litres, right?).

[a-guitarist]

Melinda,

I haven't got the time right now to do some research into it, but I can speak from personal experience. When I was "sick", I self medicated like crazy because I couldn't always afford my medication. Drugs that were less than... legal, and lots and lots of alcohol. And when I could afford my medication, they weren't always effective.

Many people I know who can't afford health care will, instead of spending 60 bucks on a bottle of pills to take care of their pain, will by the equivalent in other, less than legal items to take care of it themselves. Why? That sixty dollars worth of stuff will be more effective, they can get without having to cut through a bunch of red tape, they don't have to wait in line at the doctors and then the pharmacy, and they're ef'n idiots.

a-g

Edit: Oh, and around where I live we were paying $4.15 a gallon of gas. There are roughly 4 liters per gallon... so you're getting hit a lot harder at the pumps than we are. But, on the flip side, we're a much larger country and we don't believe in public transportation because we're .... not smart like that.

[Lexi]

I don't believe in public transportation. If I'm going somewhere I'll be going in my car.

[WarriorCleric]

I pay roughly 30% of my income in taxes, and I've never felt a need to resort to "off color methods", and I don't even have a well-paid job, I don't have any university education, etc. I happily pay my taxes, because I know I will get healthcare, I know university will be free once I realize what career I want to pursuit, I know dental will also be fairly cheap (even though they've increased the cost over the last decade). As a whole, I think my family gets out more from the well-fare than we put into it. And that is the point really, the guy earning 100,000 pays 30,000 in taxes, the guy earning 5,000 pays 1,500 in taxes. Who contributes more to the well-fare? The rich guy. And who does well-fare benefit most? The poor guy.

Anyway, that's why I'm interested in knowing if you can back up your statement on high taxes = crimes/drugs. Is it something you have read? Or heard? Is it from a reliable source, or someone on the street said so? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to be convinced before I believe you. That might make me more inclined to change my opinion on taxes.

EDIT:

I pay around 13 SEK for a liter of gas. That's like a little more than 2 dollars per liter. I'm not really familiar with US gas prices, but I guess I'm paying more than you (also, you buy in gallons instead of litres, right?).

Please correct me if I am reading it wrong, but to me it seems that you think the point of your well-fare system is so that people who don't contribute as much to the public good take more from the public good? That's kind of skewed, don't you think? Shouldn't the point of any modern socialist system be that everyone is guaranteed no less than a certain level in their standard of living? That a certain level of equality must exist because it's a natural right? Not for a way for people with a chip on their shoulders to skrew those who have succeeded? (And really I do apologize if I misread, or mistook what you said)

I do, however, disagree with the tax hike causing off-color methods of income, at least not that it's a widely common sense. Certainly it creates incentive for some people to adopt off the books income, but I'd assume under the table not necessarily high crime. Though I do agree with the thought that it lowers the income of the family.

Now to add to what AG said, how many other countries are as large as the US? As in physical land mass with the population spread as we are? The major problem with rising gas prices for us is that it increases the cost of our infrastructure with the shipping of goods from one place to another. You may pay more for gas than we do, but does your country as a whole require as much fuel to transport goods and services to all of your citizens? Shipping a truck load of goods from the SW to the NE takes almost two days of road time here. We also have many times the number of goods being shipped (not just fancy toys, but produce, newspapers, mail, etc.) and it's all being shipped to many times the number of locations. I'm pretty sure it's not a linear increase to the costs.

Is our infrastructure as efficient as smaller countries? What is the population distribution like in your country? What is the population density? (I don't think we score much in sympathy points from Sweden on these).

I don't really care about the people in the US who bitch that they can't drive to the beach anymore because of gas prices. Personal, fun trips are something that can be cut. But can anyone reasonable expect oranges and lettuce to stop being transported around the country because of rising gas prices?

But with transportation costing more, so do the goods that get shipped. So with fuel prices increasing considerably fast these days, it's less disposable income for the family, add the extra taxation from... anything, not with the whole **** storm going on now. Americans really don't need more fuel to be poured on the fiscal fire.

And to AG about public transportation, eat a goat! Are Americans less apt to use public transportation than the rest of the world? I think so, but public transportation is less efficient here than in countries that are much smaller and have a larger population density. Is it worth the cost to have a Jordan, NY to Syracuse, NY Bus run every hour? every two? Not even close. Do people drive big, gas guzzling cars? Yes. But that doesn't mean that we're stupid (Yes it does, but not because they skip Public Transportation), it could just mean our options all kinda suck.

Finally, I think something that is important to note is what people mean when they say the rich pay more, or the poor pay more, etc. I view equal payment of taxation based on percentage of income paid, not the specific dollar amount paid. I think that fair taxation is, and should be, a percentage based taxation. 'Oh the rich pay less!' Well, how much income do the rich have each year, and how many are there? If there are only 500 rich people and they all pay 100, but there are 10,000 poor people who all pay 10. Well then the poor are contributing more as a group, but the rich are contributing more individually. So who is getting ripped off? Well as long as they all pay there 10% I don't think I give a damn. It'd seem equal to me.

Not all directed at Melinda. It's more of a little rant off the top of my head.

WC

[Lexi]

Such a big post.

Isn't any tax system skewed then? I mean, the tax money funds a lot of things, military, infrastructure, healthcare (in some countries), should you only benefit from these based on how much you contributed? Well-fare is about providing certain services to everyone, but the ones that truly benefit from this would be the group of people that can not pay for it themselves originally. No?

The northern parts of sweden are fun. The closest neighbor living a few miles away (and not the pansy american/english miles, but the really long miles). A bit extreme example, and an exception to the general situation, but infrastructure isn't as high priority as it used to be here. There are cracks in the well-fare system, but I sort of think it is nice to live in a country that will care for its inhabitants. Anyway, I don't really know all the details or inner workings of the american economy. The whole point of "socialistic" healthcare is that people who do not afford medicine/treatments will get it paid for by the state. I do not see how that will generate a fiscal problem for the average american.

EDIT:

It's not easy being wealthy in sweden. After a certain point in income, they have to pay 60% rather than 30%. Not to mention all the extra taxes on houses, gasoline, tobacco, VAT. Then there's also a lot of subsidies/grants (not sure what correct the english term is), money that the state pays out for families with children, people who can't afford housing, people who has no income, etc. Yeah. The people who life a comfortable life pays for the state to care for the more unfortunate ones (I think they do this in the Bible also).

[a-guitarist]

I guess what the big problem is, in my eyes, is that the US government will care for it's people.. it's just people want more. I am an example of being taken care of. However, it's the type of care that I/we receive is not what we/I would like. And that isn't the government's fault, that's mine/ours.

Medicade and Medicare are government run medical options in this country. Why are they not enough? If you need, absolutly need, medical help, you'll get it with these. But if you've got a case of the sniffles, or you've twisted your ankle... you're on your own. As it should be, too. How do you get Medicaid and Medicare? You have to apply for it, your case is judged, and you are given assistance. What qualifies you for these services? Lack of funds for the bills you will get. If you make a certain level of money, you pay more on your bills. Until, when you reach a point, you make too much to be taken care of by the government. And I agree with this... just not the way they do it.

The problem is this: If Medicaid and Medicare are already a burden on the budget (I read in a local paper that they were cutting a half a billion dollars out of the budget this year on medicare), how would a nation wide system work?

And, please don't take offense to me calling it socialized health care. I don't use the term derogatorily. I just don't know what else to call it... "universal" sounds too Utopian to me, and it will not be that easy. Socialized? Well, if you're not a communist nation, and you're not into capitalism... you're in the middle... which is what? Socialism. UK, many European Nations are these... and there is nothing wrong with it. Just don't paint an elephant black and white and ask me to call it a Zebra. Socialism is socialism. Communism is Communism. And Capitalism is Capitalism... something that the United States, in my eyes, is even shying away from by leaps and bounds.

And back to you, WC, eat a goat. Would I use public transit if I had the option? Yes. Do I drive a gas guzzler? Nope. Do I get upset with those who do when they don't use it for anything a regular sized car couldn't do? Yeah. And, believe me, if we had the options that other nations do, most of us Stater's here wouldn't use them... 'cause we equate cars with freedom. Take half of our friends around here wanting to buy a car, a truck, and a motor cycle... along with their new house because that's "the American dream"... which I always thought was two and a half kids and a dog.... which I only assume is who you fed the other half of the kid too... I may be totally off base on that one.

a-g

[Quigt]

I may have said this before, but the big problem I see with the American health system is that the welfare of the citizens lies in the hands of big corporations that handle insurance, which to me is morally corrupt. If McCain thinks he can solve that issue, then more power to him. If Obama thinks that he can, then he deserves the votes too.

People are entering hospitals in the middle of the night and needing surgery, but if their insurance doesn't cover it then they don't get the surgery that they need. You could say that if a person's life was at stake, a surgeon is likely (giving the benefit of the doubt here) to work for free, but where does the money to pay for the consumable materials come from if the insurance company won't pay for it?

[Ex-D&Der]

I asked this in another thread, but in the spirit of not hijacking I will post it here.

I saw an interview with John McCain where he was asked if he used PC or mac, in so many words his response was "ohhh...Im illertate when it comes to computers, I cant even use one, my wife does all of that for me"

any opinions on this?

It means he's a pathetic old fool.

[KRins]

I don't have specific documentation, but I will get right on it. About half of my mom's side of the family are police officers in NYC (An uncle in swat, an aunt who is a precinct captain in downtown manhattan (not the bad part. (1 precinct over from the UN) and several uniform or ESU cousins.). It is a documented, scientific fact that things like taxes, the weather, and, whether we like to admit it or not, racial makeup of a community affects the crime rates. Crime rates nearly double when it is hot outside...its a fact. High taxes increase crime rates...maybe not violent, kill your neighbor for their housecat so you can make a stir-fry from it crime, but crime nonetheless. Considering I've never even heard of SEK I'll have to assume you are from a different continent not only country. Unfortunately that gives you very little context to even comment on the American situation. It just isn't something the news, the internet, or Wolf Blitzer (I still wonder why God hasn't smote him with a meteor yet) can illustrate clearly enough. I've worked with "inner city" children around Orlando...just volunteering at the Boys & Girls club when I have time and stuff like that. Even an incredibly simple person can equate a lack of food at home to cause increased irritability which in turn leads to increased people getting busted in the face...there's a crime right there. I've seen perfect sweet 10 year old girls who are usually hanging out every afternoon swimming or watching TV together, rolling on the pool deck literally ripping the hair out of each other's head...trying to claw each other's eyes out. A 14 year old boy who I used to drive home from the B&G club wasn't at the club for a week straight. I decided to drive by his house one evening after the club closed to see what was up, and I found him on the street corner. He didn't say it in so many words, but he was "working" by selling drugs for someone in the community because his mom was having a hard time making rent, paying bills and stuff, and keeping the fridge full. This kid is 14 and he is committing a crime so he can buy a soda and some cupcakes hanging with his friends around the basketball court or whatever. He was skipping school (another crime) because his mom worked two jobs and she would never know anyway. Desperation is the step mom of invention, people will find a way to make ends meet. These are just two examples from my personal experience. You can say that these people were prone to do these things regardless of economics, but I know these kids and I wouldn't let people who I knew were violent hang around kids ranging down to 8 especially in a pool, where the slightest moment of violence could technically kill someone, and I definately wouldn't let some thug-in-training in my car, take him to a baseball/basketball game from time to time when money allows, or invite his family to my place for a barbeque over 4th of July.

EDIT: We do have some altruistic associations in the States that try to take care of those that can't take care of everything themselves medically. I know of free clinics and things like that here in the States. With proof of income (generally a couple consecutive pay stubs) free or reduced medical care (with real doctors and nurse practioners) can be had. Generally if you need a prescription medicine they find a way to get you what you need (be it those lovely samples pharmaceutical reps like to hand out or calling the prescription to a "friendly" pharmacy to get you a reduced price). My dad's side of the family happens to be healthcare oriented and my dad's step-sister (ummm...step-aunt? I never really thought about that...I always called her Aunt Helen...but whatever) is a nurse practioner at just such a free clinic. Now she lives in Blacksburg, VA (SW VA for those of you not familar with Hokie Nation) and it is a fairly enlightened town considering the rather rural (and at least partially redneck...I can't think of another term here to get my point across...) location and the bad press the Vicks like to make rain on my former country home. I know not every city and town has such establishments, but I know a lot of county health departments have such a program.

[J.Twendrist]

Personally I think if the reverted a lot of things to the way they used to be, we would be in much better shape.

Ex: Wellfare. It used to be, under Roosevelt, that to be on wellfare you would have some kind of job, even if it was cleaning up parks and stuff. Everyone on wellfare is capable of doing some kind of job, and if they made people work, for even a few hours a day to get the checks, a lot of people who abuse it would stop, and even if they continued to, they would be doing something productive. You fix the economy at the foundation of where the money is needed most and you fix the economy.

Also, I think instead of income tax, there should just be an added say... 10% tax on all goods purchased. That way, if you don't have money and you are trying to save then you aren't pennalized.

[WarriorCleric]

Melinda, No, not all well-fare and tax systems are skewed. What's skewed is that you seem to think it's the necessary roll of the wealthy to support those who have not succeeded. Taxes are not a punishment for making money, and just because the wealthy get less from well-fare doesn't mean they get less from their taxes. Taxes pay for the public services that the wealthy use more of than those who are more the work a day folk. How much good does the average laborer get from the government's research and investment in financial fields? Not nearly as much as the wealthy investment banker. What about the owner of a production factory, he pays more in taxes than the basic employee, but it is more necessary for him that the government have efficient waste removal services. The wealthy who bitch about paying for the poor don't see what they get, and the less well to do folks who bitch about getting nothing don't see what the wealthy give.

I agree, and already said, that the primary roll of a well-fare system is to provide a minimum standard of living that no one should be beneath. But I do not agree that because one person makes more that they should be expected to pay more (Proportionally, meaning I think everyone should pay the same percentage of their income. Regardless of how much they make.)

It's clear to me that you not only have no understand of the inner workings of the US economy, but no understanding about the US at all. You apparently think that the US is one sprawling metropolitan area (because we live only pansy miles apart from each other. Try living in Long Lake, Adirondak State Park. I had a student who grew up there, if he wanted to buy underware or socks he had to drive two hours. What about living in Bethel Alaska, or the people living out in Rural Utah? Can they just take a leisurely stroll to pick up what they want?

You seem to think that the idea of social aid is atrocious to the American line of thinking, but we have subsidies and assistance on housing too. Guess what, we do have forms of medical coverage for the 'less fortunate' with Medicaid and Medicare. Are they perfect, certainly not, but they do exist, and lots of people depend on them, and survive because of them.

The primary difference between US health care and socialized care is the on demand health care. Last I knew, big criticism of Sweden's health care system was the wait time. When I had my accident, where I broke my collar bone and dislocated my shoulder, and just all around ****ed that region of my body (tissue damage, etc.), I was in the hospital in under an hour. And I am certain it's like that in Sweden too, emergencies are emergencies the world over. But, when I wanted to see my primary care doctor I was in to see her the next day, when I was referred to a specialist I waited the weekend and saw the specialist on the next business day. That Wednesday I was in for my assessment of physical therapy needs. In under one week I was done with all necessary and elective medical treatments and sent on my way to rest and recovery.

For me I would have been distraught if I had to wait five days to see my doctor. If I had to wait upto 30 days to see a specialist? 90 days to get into treatment? My condition was hardly an emergency, but it affected my job and more importantly it affected me. I was horribly depressed about the injury. Having to wait more than a week for any part of that would have felt criminal to me.

Differences in priorities do exist in the US. The US is not Sweden, it is not Canada, it is not Australia, it's the US. Just because it works in your country, for your citizens, does not mean it will work in ours, with us.

I'm done arguing about this with someone who admits to having no understanding of the US system, and seemingly doesn't want to bother and learn. I've said my peace, you've said yours, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

And Quigt, that is just wrong. Emergency rooms are legally obligated to perform any necessary treatment on any patients, with or without medical coverage, should the patient arrive at there door. It has been this way since 1986. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMTALA

Any hospital refusing emergency care losses funding from the government, which covers over 40% of all medical expenditures in the US. Hospitals can not afford to turn away those who can't pay for the emergency treatment.

The hospital can then write off the cost of those procedures as charity work, though that certainly doesn't make up for the loss of income. The real problem is that emergency rooms are not paid for half of what they perform, and that the rising costs of medical malpractice insurance doesn't seem to slow down, so the emergency rooms are closing.

WC

[Iconz]

There is a lot of good stuff on this thread... I like the flow of thought and opinion w/ very lil flammage going on...

A_G... your story is pretty common.. maybe not in detail... but definitely in spirit. You have alot of people who arent satisfied with what the govt offers them... and so they take advantage of the system. You also have people who will take advantage of the system b/c... well... they like taking advantage of the system. Its hard to tell the difference between the two sometimes but they are out there. Dont get me wrong... the govt does alot for its citizens... but i guess when youve had stale crackers for so long and you then you find out that its possible to have some cake... you forget about the people who dont have crackers at all. What im saying is that the US govt CAN do more... even though compared to alot of places in the world they are doing a good job. (Thats usually the basis of my thoughts when i try to criticize the U.S.... its like watching an A student doing C work... yeah its passing and its better than the F student... but come on!)

WC... on point... so very on point.

About taxing percentage wise... i dont know how well that works. If Im making 100 million dollars a year... and you take 10 million away...ima be pissed but ill survive ("Things are gunna be tight kids... we have to ration our jet fuel... so only trips to Europe this year"). If im making 20 thousand a year and you take away 2 thousand... well... who do you think feels it more? Also... wasnt it Warren Buffet who said

? The rich get tons of tax breaks in the U.S. Like Killalou said, the middle class is bearing the brunt of both the rich and the poor.

Krins.. i def know that type of story man.. im workin in the school system right now. Its becoming more and more common. Its no secret... when times get tough the crime rates go up. You got kids w/ no parental supervision b/c they are working two jobs to survive. I came from that kind of a background... immigrant family... both parents worked two jobs. Im a statistical anomaly... i became a nerd instead of a criminal lol. I probably could have been defined as "high risk" like a lot of the kids who I work with.

J.Twendrist. Hell yeah man.. the welfare system is not built to get people -out- of welfare as it is right now. You have a bunch of people who are abusing the system... and you have a bunch of people who are getting no help from the system. You want to help someone? Help them get a steady job that will allow them raise a family... help them get into school to learn something.. help by setting up free/mega-cheap community daycare/afterschool services. Kanye West (hate him or love him) once said, "You know the kids gon act a fool / When you stop the programs for afterschool". So yeah.. helping people get jobs instead of hounding them constantly and asking "have you been looking for work?" (Yes muthalover! People are not hiring) would prolly do more for getting people to where they can sustain themselves...

Also, PAY TEACHERS MORE MUTHAF'N MONEY! I dont care if you say "well, then people will get into just for the money instead of benefitting the kids." Thats like sayin, "My doctor is gunna suck b/c he's just in it for the money". Guess what?! He doesnt do a good job and hes not gunna be a doctor for long... especially in this sue-happy society we live in. Pay them more... and weed out the ones who arent doing a good job. These are the people who have your kids for 8 hours a day... i see how much poo they have to put up with in terms of your bratty dont-get-spanked-enough-kids (spankin... not punching/choking/abusing... there is a difference) and all the red tape... and all the sheer work they do. If you dont treat them right... it will be reflected in their work.... which will affect the kids... which will show in the poor pre-college education system (U.S. system of universities and colleges are the top notch though!)

Tangent... IMO the american culture promotes fast money. "You too can be a millionare if you just come up with the next youtube/facebook/google/outrageously-dumb-yet-catchy-song (Crank dat soulja boy anyone?)". You want to know why [stereotype] "asian people are so smart?"[/stereotype]. If you're Hermstein and Murray you say "Genetics!". If you're someone w/ a bit more common sense you say "hmm... maybe its because certain asian countries hold school on saturdays.. or maybe some have what are called 'cram schools' in which they go back to school in the evening... or maybe its cuz some countries have longer school days... or the pressure to succeed acadamically is a greater cultural/parental concern". I mean.. dont get me wrong... the american culture also does promote working hard... but its not what the kids see on tv or in their role models. They see "so and so got rich by being good at baseball" "so and so got rich because they can sing.", "so and so got rich by inventing something". I was going through this middle school classroom's list of what you want to be when you grow up assignment: Athlete, Athlete, Pet Cop (lol), Hannah Montana (LOL), Singer, Athlete, Loyer (Lawyer), Athlete, etc etc.

Oh, and if I could vote, id vote Obama. Like Jack Cafferty said... "if after 8 years of a Republican govt, the American people put McCain into office... then we deserve whatever we get."

__________________

Iconz - Has a desperate desire to see the next generation achieve and succeed.

[a-guitarist]

Iconz... I.... you... it's jus-.... I can't disagree on anything you wrote, really. I think this may be a first. PAY TEACHERS MORE! You are damned right. With all the crap they have to put up with, the responsiblity they shoulder (even more so with standardized testing), and the whole slew of other problems they face. ("Hey, I wanna get on the news/make people pay attention to me/get teacher back for failing me..... The teacher tried to have sex with me! Did you hear? This teacher tried to have sex with me! Come on, look at me! Oh, I changed my mind, I lied, the teacher never touched me... but they're still gonna get fired. Yay! I'm awesome! I'm famous!"

I dunno, I'm gonna write in and throw away my vote.. Seems like the only choice I can make and not hate myself later for it.

a-g

[Lexi]

Krins:

You are basically saying that the climate is so different in America that we Europeans can not relate to your situation? Because honestly, I can't relate to what you are speaking of. We've had some pretty hot summers here recently, and not me or anyone I know felt more inclined to break the law. You say poverty increase crime rate, I say well-fare financed by high taxes reduce poverty. At least that is how I perceive it.

It seems more and more to me (from reading all your posts) that your country is divided between rich and poor. It also makes me feel grateful to live in a more equal country.

I was under the impression that the US is an economic superpower. Is that incorrect?

SEK = svenska kronor = swedish crowns.

6.34 SEK = 1 USD.

We have 25% VAT tax (tax on all goods purchased). Darned many taxes. The more I think of it, it feels like a two way street. The nation takes cares for its citizens, and the citizens care for its nation.

EDIT:

Sweden once was on American news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDjVd7lOBXA

I have a friend that lives there. In my opinion, the image displayed by Fox News is skewed (thanks for using that word WC, I really like it).

EDIT2:

Wow. I never thought of it like that, WC, but I guess you are right. But things such as waste removal, scientific investments, infrastructure, those are payed for by taxes but they are not part of the well-fare system? I would include things such as education, medical care, social services, and similar in the well-fare category. I never said I agreed on different taxes, I just explained how it works in this country. I debate this alot with my friends, and I am still somewhat undecided. Both sides have good arguments. Many Europeans like me think very little of the American well-fare system, I guess we sort of look down on what we see as a capitalist/cutthroat-type of lifestyle. That is why I am participating in the discussion, I want to hear what you have to say, and add that to my personal view of what America is. I hope you weren't offended by anything in my posts, especially since I was trying to make a humoristical remark to lighten the mood (yes, your miles are pansy, a real mile is 10,000 meters). I know a lot of this is serious business to you, and I did not want the conversation to turn into an ego competition. I realize my country is not perfect, and I still think a lot of things are wrong with the US. I also think there are a lot of cool things in the US, but debating that would sort of be moot since we would agree anyway. Representatives of your country have often made public appearances where they have glorified USA to be the bastion of democracy, the home of the brave, all that is just and right, the epitome of western civilization - what upsets me is that people go hungry in such a place, people go without healthcare, and many can not afford the education they want.

EDIT3:

We have really long wait times. I never said our healthcare was perfect, but it is good enough for me to be very proud of it. Perhaps the US healthcare is good enough for most americans to be very proud of it too.

EDIT4:

I read your post again, WC. The "differences in priorities", "it works for you but we don't want it to work here" and similar comments in other posts is part of the american mentality that me and my friends think is typical capitalistic. I guess cultural differences are hard to overcome. But I respect you anyway, because your posts are intelligent and well thought out. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as you said.

[a-guitarist]

The reason the USA is "cut-throat" and dog-eat-dog is because that's how we "started". A lot of people view the US way as "Do it yourself, and prove you're capable or else you don't deserve it." and while I do agree with this sometimes, I am totally against it at other times.

I recently got into a debate with a friend. He claims to have "depression" and "some other disorder, I'm just lazy... something might be wrong with me." along with some serious weight issues. What does he want to do to fix this? He wants to take a few pills and continue doing nothing with his life... yet he comes to me for advice. I have recently lost a serious amount of weight, stopped taking a bunch of medication for psych, and psych related problems, and have been doing great.

My advice? Exercise! Exercise is better for "curing" depression than SSRI's or Tricyclic Antidepressants. Exercise will make you lose weight faster than some diet pill that will just permanently screw up your metabolism. But... he wants the quick fix... he wants someone else to do the work for him, so he tells me I'm wrong.

Now, let's look at this....

The American Way: Win at everything! Screw the world! Nationalistic Pride!

The Old American Way: Anything is possible in anyone's life, all they have to do is work hard for it, bust their ***, and not take "no" for an answer!

The New American Way: If I have to work for it, odds are I'm not "working as hard as I can" because I haven't found easy street. I'm going to do as little as possible to get as much back, kinda of a "Seiryoku Zenyo" type thing. And while good in theory, it as lent it self to making the US people fat, lazy, and arrogant (and not a good arrogant, a bad one.)

As for the Healthcare working for the US People? It used to. Used to work great for us... but the the lazy hit us. The fat hit us... and then nothing is good for us. We bitch about our government on a daily basis, yet do nothing to change it. We elect people into office because we only listen to half the story... (people saying they're voting for Obama purely on the health related things, and full well willing to give up our second amendment rights... which are the clearest of all our amendments... all because we were promised free healthcare.) Something American's used to always know, and are starting to ignore... a free lunch is NEVER free. Just like in a relationship... a kiss is never just a kiss, sex is never just sex, and in the end.... "That's the ****ing you get for the ****ing you got."

The Government exists to serve the people... but in a capitalistic economy and nation, the Government also exists to ensure that people make a profit. Is it wrong that the Government officials use this a guise to make their millions? Some might say so, I definitely do, but others will say that they are just using their granted powers and abilities and rights guaranteed to them by our founding fathers. No where does it say that life in the States will be fair, just equal rights.... and I'm leaning towards the fact that things are equal for everyone here... just some are more equal than others.

If you're a Star Trek fan... you can look at the US make up in a few ways. A lot of us are Ferangi. A lot of us are Romulean. And a lot of us are Klingon. And NONE of us are Human.

It does sound like I hate the USA. I don't, I really do like it. But at times, the government does nothing but fail for us (or apparently so), and we keep electing the same people into the fold because of some ridiculous two party system that breeds itself to false and/or blind loyalties because someone rides an elephant or donkey. And the worst part is... the people who could change things have been lied to, to the point of not giving a crap about what happens next.... and that would be most of my generation and younger.

Oh, and Melinda... if Sweden ever needs help... you just come ask us Stater's fer some help, ya' hear?

a-g

[Ex-D&Der]

Ex: Wellfare. It used to be' date=' under Roosevelt, that to be on wellfare you would have some kind of job, even if it was cleaning up parks and stuff.[/quote']

That's not true actually. You are confusing two different parts of the New Deal. Aid to Families with Dependent Children, what we usually call welfare, was part of the Social Security Act and was indeed cash assistance that did not require work, and was available only to single women with dependents. This was a small group at the time, chiefly widows. The public works programs you are talking about (Works Progress Administration, Civilian Conservation Corps, etc.) were much larger jobs programs available primarily to men and consisted of things like building bridges, roads, post offices, and rebuilding parks.

[KRins]

Technically since I am in Florida my climate and your climate are extremely different. I wasn't using the temperature fact to try and make my point so much as to make the point that even things beyond our control can make the world a more violent, lawless place.

My write in vote has been decided by the incredibly funny links posted throughout this thread. CHTULHU in '08!!! Also that some help link is super classic. I nearly fell out my chair laughing.

[WarriorCleric]

Oh, Fox news is just garbage, in our house we call it Faux news. The only reason to watch that show is entertainment, and only if there is nothing else on, and it's flooding, and a riot is occurring outside. It's like Star Magazine.

I wasn't seriously offended by anything you said, but a lot of this is very serious to me.

I've said it before, I think during the last elections, but I do think my country is the greatest country in the world. (or at least it used to be/could be again) But, then again I'd be very confused if I met someone living (permanently) in a country they didn't think was the best. I certainly don't expect any Swede to say 'USA, number 1!' but I'd like them to understand why I love this place so much, and why despite the differences in ideals. Pieces of **** like faux news, and the current administration, they don't define the average US citizen, and they don't define life inside they US, they affect us, our policies may change because of them, but who the American people are as human beings will be mostly the same regardless of if a Republican or a Democrat get elected, if socialized medicine takes over or a complete 180 occurs. I'd agree that our entertainment and our Administration and foreign policy creates a foreign image, and it's an image I don't like at all. But if I'd just sit there and hope that the rest of the world see's through that nonsense I'd be doing nothing useful, and that's why I get so heated on these discussions, I want as many foreigners to know that that isn't us, that image isn't the majority of the States. Sometimes I fall on my face trying, but my goal is never to **** on anyone else's country, just to show mine in the same light as I see it.

When I argue for my nation, I'm not arguing for Bush, or for companies like Enron, or TV shows like Faux News, I'm arguing for what they abuse or distort.

WC

[Kyzarius]

I pay roughly 30% of my income in taxes, and I've never felt a need to resort to "off color methods", and I don't even have a well-paid job, I don't have any university education, etc. I happily pay my taxes, because I know I will get healthcare, I know university will be free once I realize what career I want to pursuit, I know dental will also be fairly cheap (even though they've increased the cost over the last decade). As a whole, I think my family gets out more from the well-fare than we put into it. And that is the point really, the guy earning 100,000 pays 30,000 in taxes, the guy earning 5,000 pays 1,500 in taxes. Who contributes more to the well-fare? The rich guy. And who does well-fare benefit most? The poor guy.

Anyway, that's why I'm interested in knowing if you can back up your statement on high taxes = crimes/drugs. Is it something you have read? Or heard? Is it from a reliable source, or someone on the street said so? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to be convinced before I believe you. That might make me more inclined to change my opinion on taxes.

EDIT:

I pay around 13 SEK for a liter of gas. That's like a little more than 2 dollars per liter. I'm not really familiar with US gas prices, but I guess I'm paying more than you (also, you buy in gallons instead of litres, right?).

You would represent a VERY small portion of the US population first off.

"21% of Americans had taken some college courses but had not earned a degree in 2000

15.5% had earned a bachelor's degree but no higher

8.9% earned graduate or professional degrees"

This is from the 2000 census. SO out of the 5.2 million or so people in the metropolitan area I live in you would represent approximatly less than 1.5 of them since it sounds like you will get your degree.

if the government increases taxes in a time where our economy is in the dumps and the cost of goods is on a steady rise then the government is effectivly reducing income while the economy is requireing more and more capital to keep that average family of four fed.

I know that my groceries have gone from $150 - 180 to $230-250 every ten days or so to feed myself, wife and kids. I make 90k a year so its not to much of a blow to me, but take someone who makes less than 30k and it can become a SERIOUS problem. Add into that the hikes in gas prices (doubling in less than a year) and you find that ANYTHING that the government does to reduce family incomes ie, raising taxes, will begin to put people who have been able to scrap by in a position where they either make more money somehow or cut back on food.

The result is desperation, for example, the rate of bank robberies has risen steadily in the past year in the SE US, gas station hold ups, you see some normal guy who hasnt done a thing wrong in his life holding up a bank (the ole letter to the teller type of hold up) so he can feed his kids. You get people dealing things like pot or more serious narcotics because hey, its good money.

Raising taxes themselves does not cause this, but raising taxes on top of rising fuel costs, rising cost of consumable goods like eggs/milk/beef, and employeers cutting back pay and laying people off DOES cause these problems. All combined you create economic strife, and economic strife pushes more people to act rashly.

The problem with wellfare is now people who are not eligble for welfare dont make enough money to feed themselves, the system is flawed it is a static answer for a dynamic problem. Welfare also isnt adjusting how much money they give someone, so yeah 15 years ago your welfare check may have been enough but now it isnt.

Its like putting 10 people in a tank with 5'6" of water, and only giving oxygen tanks to those who are 5'6" or shorter, but...the top is open so every year a few more inches get added...now the taller people start drowning, but no one is changing who they give tanks to, and the rebreather on those under water doesnt let them breath enough air to stay conscious.

[Dizz]

I love FL political debates. No flames here.

I think the current political trouble with the US is that people are too complacent to change anything. We are too far spread out to organize and just content enough in our lives to not rock the boat-much. Generally, I get a feeling of resignation when it comes to the government, taxes, environment, whatever.