Good PK

[Cephirus]

I will refrain from names, and I will also do my best and hope that this thread remains constructive criticism, and does not morph into some form of flame/flame bait, as it may very well do.

Of recent I have been assaulted twice by "good" aligned characters. I have made my efforts to discuss this situation with them, only to be greeted with what I find to be illogical reasons to coincide with their actions. Their justification for assaulting me is purely based upon my race. Now, obviously race plays a factor, and being judged by it is going to happen, both IG, and out. However, as a so called champion of light and good, should you not be able to define what it means to be good? Should you not have proof that the person you are "purifying" is in fact evil? Obviously there are tremendous repercussions for a good being to slay another good being, should they not be held to the same strict standards for murdering those they know nothing about, but that they look like a certain race? Now, if they are obviously a demon, vampire, or a well known murder, theif and the like, I can understand them not opening up with any form of communication to determine their true intent. However, at lower ranks, this does not happen in my experience from an unfortunate majority. I think part of this has to do with the fact that by the time a character has reached 50, they are at least somewhat known, and their choices are clear to at least a few people of the lands. However, if you are an elven paladin, and you see a duergar, are you to automatically assume that he is evil, and his soul needs to be cleansed, and without any warning, talks, or provocation, you should assault him, and not just by yourself, but in a group? I think not. What morale justification does this said paladin have for those actions? Granted, yes, he is a champion of light, yes he may have lost his love/mother/family member, ect. to another member of that race, does that give him the proof he needs to wish genocide upon that race? I think not. Genocide is a strong word, however I see it too many times in many players role-play, in that now that I have lost my "fill in the blank" because of members of your race, I am now going to hunt down you all. Does that mean no one should be rp'ing that... no. However, it gets boring and tired, and to be honest, I find it quite unimaginative. Wanting justice against the person(s) that caused you harm/pain, etc. I think would be a much better direction then simply "Because my love was enslaved by your race, I am going to hunt down you all". To use another analogy as a prime example, When Anakin Skywalker cut down the tribe of Sandpeople for the thing they did to his mother, he did not aim to destroy all the sandpeople, his goal was aimed at those that caused his harm, not the entire race, for how can those members having no affiliation or knowledge of the deed done, have any affect on either of it's outcomes?

This has turned into a rather long rant. I hope that those of you that read this take this into careful consideration, at what point is a character considered to be evil, or good for that matter? If I help someone in need does that make me good? If I put the needs of others above my own, does that make me good? If I don't does that make me evil? If I slay someone that I have received word of to be committing murder and stealing, yet afterward I learn that I had the wrong person, does that then make me evil?

I think the answer to all of the questions is no. Quite simply, a person can only be considered good by their actions, if the means (meaning what they are doing to accomplish something) justifies the end result of what it is they are doing. An evil being justifies the end result, doing whatever it takes to accomplish it, regardless of the sacrifice.

[Deykari]

Some people (characters) are racist.

Some people (characters) have access to spells which tell them, by way of prayer/spell (think of it as enlightenment from their respective diety) if somebody is evil or not. Infact, there is a potion I believe that allows the detect evil affect - meaning -every- good can have access to this.

There's two prime reasons there. Consider 'detect evil' to be infallible. Your FL align is what you are. If I commune (or acquire the affect by other means) for the detect evil spell, then I am being shown by me deity who is evil. Who am I to disagree with my diety and say "Wait, he might be nice!" when my deity is telling me that they are evil?

As for the racism example, a character can be flawed. Why is it such a bad thing if an Elf sees you as a Drow, calls you evil, and kills you? Why is it bad RP? Could it not be that simply the character holds some prejudice against the Drow race (for obvious reasons) and is not prepared to interview each and every Drow to find out what they're like? Racism exists in real life, and it can exist in FL. If a character IS wrong, and they attack a Drow who -is- good, then there will be the IC consequences. Simple.

Dey

EDIT: Holy crap, my grammar was awful.

[English lad]

Should you not have proof that the person you are "purifying" is in fact evil?

Yes...

However, if you are an elven paladin, and you see a duergar, are you to automatically assume that he is evil, and his soul needs to be cleansed, and without any warning, talks, or provocation, you should assault him, and not just by yourself, but in a group? I think not. What morale justification does this said paladin have for those actions?

Yes, Yes you should, Duergar are evil - they can't be neutral, Race Align's are coded for a reason.

Personally I see to much of this not happening.

Evils are evils - evil races are evil races. Evils are coded differently to goods, they have certain perks that make evils more inviting for experienced players to play, the 'balance' to that should be that they are evil, and thus should get attacked a lot by goods/neutrals and evils....

But they don't..people play evils and get the benefits, without the negatives.

I guess this is another thread altogether, and one i've been meaning to write...but I really feel Evil RP should be held to the same sort of standards Good RP is...Goods get outcasted for breaches of Good RP, evils should get the same for being helpful, going out of their way to help people out without any benefit etc....

I'm not saying Evils can't work together - but they should always be looking out for number one first and foremost, if anybody is unsure they should read help evil. There are a lot of excellent Rpers out there playing evils, so i don't want to tar everybody with the same brush, but I see an awful lot of people playing goods and evils, not as 'good' or 'evil' but as 'my team' and trying to 'win' with their team. You can't win FL, and if your an evil you probably shouldn't even be trying...If evils win, the everything ends..thats why good guys win in stories.

Bleh, total tangent, and not really expressing myself very well..I'll put this on ice until I can think up how to write up a post about it better.

[Mali]

You can't win FL

Maybe you can't...

[Twinblades713]

The way I see it is yes, you can do whatever you want because you're a human and you can make choices. You can make your duergar help everyone, get owned by a good and turn the other cheek, donate money and save babies. But what FL has done for structure is given certain races the most "likely" alignment that they would be. Drow are almost certainly evil. Sure you can find a book or two where there's a benevolent drow, but look at most. Evil. What FL has done is given you a bit of history to your character by setting an alignment. If you wish to play a duergar, you must assume either, your character has done evil things already and will continue to do so, or your character is going to start doing evil things at level 1, because history has shown duergar to be evil creatures. It's basically saying FL is wrong by wishing to play against this and I consider it bad roleplay.

Funny story, before I understood this idea, I rolled a necromancer that was bent on being good. I helped people, and never tried to kill anyone, (I was too newbish to be able to kill anyone anyway) and I couldn't even get outcasted to good or gimped to good. Same rule applies. If you wish to be a Necromancer, as the VAST majority if not all past necromancers have been evil, so must you be evil. A good necromancer... well... that would be another ... strange class.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Being attacked by every Tom, Dick and Harry good is one of the obvious drawbacks to choosing to play an evil. It's just the way it is. The code specifically states, hey, drows are notoriously evil by nature. Duergar are notoriously evil by nature. Illithid are notoriously evil by nature. Generations upon generations of them have committed atrocious acts of evil. They are infamous. While a few may exist that shun their culture, by and far the majority do not and revel in their heinous defilement. Most "goods" would be perfectly justified to "shoot first and ask questions later" based on reputation alone.

[Kyzarius]

Duergars kidnap people and enslave them in their underground city.

Drows are assasins and thieves, look how they live in their city in the underdark.

An illithid is a beast that kidnaps people to eat their brains.

These are the stereotypes in FL.

[Mali]

Its a tough world...

You have already chosen which side of the battle you are on when you are evil. You rank up killing dryads and citizens. Your guildmaster is notorious for teaching about dark skills or magics. Plus, chances are you will be very hard to kill when you are prepared and at top level.

Being good doesn't mean being a wussy. Its a tough world and there is a war going on between many different factions and individuals with dark or strange pasts.

Gangbanging and multikilling should not be happening too much unless you give them a reason. Same goes for evils vs goods.

[Anume]

1. There are some races who are inheritly evil. If you are a member of that race and not an outcast (which you would be if you were not evil) it is safe to assume you are evil as well.

2. Some goods have the spell detect evil. It is their GOD telling them anyone shining with that nice red aura IS evil. Whom would you believe more? Your god or some drow / illithid / duergar?

3. If you indeed want to play a member of an evil race that is in fact NOT evil, please apply for an align change (will of course include outcast and perhaps some gimping) by sending an Application to Immortal. Else you should choose a race that can be neutral / good if you don't want to be an evil. (Or you can go the Martineius way and try to convince everyone that you are a "civilized" evil, which isn't that bad... or is it? Keep in mind that an evil who is not Outcasted IS evil at the core. Martin's end-goals were always evil.)

[Lexi]

Hrm.

There is just as much room for an evil acting good as there is for a good acting evil.

Evil characters will be helpful, nice, pleasant, polite (as Martineius was), as long as it does not interfere with their long-term goals. Actually, to me that is the very definition of evil - by all means neccesary - even if you happen to help someone you never met before.

Some good characters would cheat, lie, murder, destroy as long as it would hurt evil as a whole - the means justify the ends. That is what makes roleplaying so interesting.

[Questioner]

There should be an extra step in the character creation process. A warning to tell the player that their choice of race will have rp responsibilities that they will have to uphold. Not following the set stereotype is not acceptable, except in rare cases.

Just to keep people from wondering if they can make that duergar a dirty and ugly ewok.

[Twinblades713]

Just to keep people from wondering if they can make that duergar a dirty and ugly ewok.

Right there!

If anyone sees a duergar restrung to ewok, unless questioner beats me to it... it's me.

[KRins]

ewoks are a generally benevolent race...halfling restring. Duergar would spit in the face of all things George Lucas. You really think a duergar could crush a friggin AT-ST with two trees?

[Twinblades713]

ewoks are a generally benevolent race...halfling restring. Duergar would spit in the face of all things George Lucas. You really think a duergar could crush a friggin AT-ST with two trees?

All those poor AT-STs slaughtered in their prime! Damn you Ewok!

[a-guitarist]

ewoks are a generally benevolent race...halfling restring. Duergar would spit in the face of all things George Lucas. You really think a duergar could crush a friggin AT-ST with two trees?

So... you're saying that Duergars are George Lucas?

Nerf Herder ruined my childhood dreams for the sake of millions of dollars and flashy graphics.... ef him and the Tauntaun he rode in on. That pile of Bantha Poodu sold his soul to the Hutts. And no, I have not seen the new "movie", and no, I don't plan to. I swear to god, If Lucas was alive a couple thousand years ago he'd a crucified Christ because he, "Always wanted religion done this way." when in truth, he never did and all he wanted was to be the center of attention and flash that magnificent head of hair and manly, manly beard. I hate him. I hate him. I hate him. If I wish him dead enough times, maybe it will happen.

Lucas is a pussy.

a-g

[WagesofSin]

This is the way I see it, and would have nothing against killing someone just because of race: Like in D&D, FL has an alignment system. Here, evil and good are not subjective but objective. Good and evil are forces of the cosmos and reality. One does malevolent acts because they are evil, and not because evil acts make a person evil. In my opinion, an evil align race is absolutely incapable of acting benevolently if it's not for their own self interest.

As far as races go, I think Drow, Illithid, and Duergar are notorious for being bad people. These races cause pain and suffering on a daily basis and should be hated by most people(even neutrals IMO). Frankly that is a problem I have with evil races. Playing an evil race, one should feel alienated from most cultures/societies outside of their own evil society. Even the three main cities should be hesitant to accept them(save maybe Miruvhor). Neutrals should also approach evil races with caution if not avoid them at most costs. Even if you are neutral, why wouldn't you give second thought to get to know a race that is bent on killing, enslaving, and world domination?

[English lad]

There should be an extra step in the character creation process. A warning to tell the player that their choice of race will have rp responsibilities that they will have to uphold. Not following the set stereotype is not acceptable, except in rare cases.

Just to keep people from wondering if they can make that duergar a dirty and ugly ewok.

This step is already there - when you choose your align there is a nice helpfile - and you have to say yes you are sure..how many people actually read it though? I think people might be suprised if they read help evil, and looked at what they are signing up to when they roll their characters.

One thing I would say is that I'm not saying you can't choose your own RP, people should look to go above and beyond the norm, and its good to see people pushing the limits. However Align comes first and foremost, and this has been said by Imms before. Yes you can choose your RP for your evil character, but it can't contradict what Evil characters are, and if it does you should expect to be outcasted and gimped, there is a lot of scope for different RP's within what it acceptable under Help Evil, but I do see a lot of evil characters where the RP would probably fit better as a neutral, or even a good...Aligns shouldn't just be picked for mechanical reasons, if people want to play a happy go lucky adventurer, they need to be looking at a good..possibly a neutral, if they want to play a 'father figure' religious leader who guides and teaches his flock the need to playing a good etc....

[Mudder]

if they want to play a 'father figure' religious leader who guides and teaches his flock the need to playing a good etc....

Who says evils cannot do that with their flock of followers? There are evil religions and good religions. A Priest of each religion would still be a priest and ac the part.

[Kyzarius]

Who says evils cannot do that with their flock of followers? There are evil religions and good religions. A Priest of each religion would still be a priest and ac the part.

Lorfaine behaved in such a manner as a nexus elder.

Of course if you tried to not be a part of his church you ended up dead....but hey.

With the right aproach you can do almost anything, as long as you dont step over certain lines.